ELI5

[Numar Patru]

The Germans already had a gigantic deficit of 6 million tons of wood for everyday use, let alone to cremate millions of people.

Say what?

[bombsaway]

How ridiculous. Do you mean to say that you believe that the Germans simply took away the tons of ashes from the cremations for other uses and left the rest and mixed it with sand as evidence of their crimes to be prosecuted later?

Why not? The problem with the body ash is what do you do with it, if you're trying to keep the mass killing operation secret.

But I also think it's likely the primary combustant was liquid fuel. Witnesses weren't asked about ratios thereof so this will likely remain a mystery.

[Archie]

1) Evidently less than 600,000, and very likely by orders of magnitude. Before going anywhere else, this alone means you don't have a Holocaust.

Right. All the elaborate antics are to distract from this fundamental and devastating point.

With your Holocaust neatly out of the way, Mattogno puts the theoretical maximum at 170,000.

Yes, that is a quite generous upper bound assuming the entire Kola grave volume was packed at 8 bodies per cubic meter.

Of course, a hypothetical upper bound does not mean that's the real number. Some people seem to have trouble grasping this.

Let us also not forget that kola & co were not just looking for ash & corpses - they were looking for the gas chambers. How embarrassing to not find the most important part of your Holocaust.

Good point.

2) Jumping to death by gassing without a gas chamber is beyond ridiculous. What is much less ridiculous is that many people died during the course of WW2 due to appalling conditions and you know, all the stuff that goes along with war. I'll cite just one example, Kolomea, where an entire trainload of 2,000 Jews arrived at Belzec dead almost to a man.

http://holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/ ... lomea.html

Times this by any reasonable number, and everything converges with the Revisionist account neatly and without and ridiculous assumptions or logic gaps.

If say 435,000 passed through the camp, 10,000 deaths would correspond to a 2.3% mortality rate. Implicitly, Numar (and bombsaway) seem to think this is outrageously high, but I don't see why and they've failed to explain their reasoning for this.

Mattogno mentions a labor camp at Belzec as early as 1940. That could also account for some deaths. And if there were deaths starting in 1940 that might be part of the reason why the Kola graves are so scattered and patchy.

[Stubble]

How ridiculous. Do you mean to say that you believe that the Germans simply took away the tons of ashes from the cremations for other uses and left the rest and mixed it with sand as evidence of their crimes to be prosecuted later?

Why not? The problem with the body ash is what do you do with it, if you're trying to keep the mass killing operation secret.

But I also think it's likely the primary combustant was liquid fuel. Witnesses weren't asked about ratios thereof so this will likely remain a mystery.

Because if I recall correctly the original assertion was that the cremains were tinned and sent back to Germany proper to fertilize cabbage.

Now, there are some ashes, so obviously they are the cremains of a half a million dead jews...

[bombsaway]

Because if I recall correctly the original assertion was that the cremains were tinned and sent back to Germany proper to fertilize cabbage.

Maybe you would like it to be the original "assertion", but it's not. See investigations at Belzec from 1945 https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... hardt.html

Revisionists such as yourself are able to hold onto your belief system in large part due to misapprehension of what historians believe and what the evidence shows.

[Stubble]

Because if I recall correctly the original assertion was that the cremains were tinned and sent back to Germany proper to fertilize cabbage.

Maybe you would like it to be the original "assertion", but it's not. See investigations at Belzec from 1945 https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... hardt.html

Revisionists such as yourself are able to hold onto your belief system in large part due to misapprehension of what historians believe and what the evidence shows.

I don't consider that assessment fair, but that doesn't really matter. The 'evolution' of the narrative over time doesn't do much to build my faith in it, regardless of where that 'evolution' takes place or what exactly the minutiae of the 'evolution' is.

Again, I'll point at majdanek.

Currently I'm more vested in finding jews transported east, and the ashes at belzec isn't my chief point of study at this time.

That the investigation you linked from '45 doesn't mention the cabbage being fertilized doesn't mean nobody said it. Hell, go watch 'death mills'.

[bombsaway]

1) Evidently less than 600,000, and very likely by orders of magnitude. Before going anywhere else, this alone means you don't have a Holocaust.

Right. All the elaborate antics are to distract from this fundamental and devastating point.

With your Holocaust neatly out of the way, Mattogno puts the theoretical maximum at 170,000.

Yes, that is a quite generous upper bound assuming the entire Kola grave volume was packed at 8 bodies per cubic meter.

Of course, a hypothetical upper bound does not mean that's the real number. Some people seem to have trouble grasping this.

Let us also not forget that kola & co were not just looking for ash & corpses - they were looking for the gas chambers. How embarrassing to not find the most important part of your Holocaust.

Good point.

2) Jumping to death by gassing without a gas chamber is beyond ridiculous. What is much less ridiculous is that many people died during the course of WW2 due to appalling conditions and you know, all the stuff that goes along with war. I'll cite just one example, Kolomea, where an entire trainload of 2,000 Jews arrived at Belzec dead almost to a man.

http://holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/ ... lomea.html

Times this by any reasonable number, and everything converges with the Revisionist account neatly and without and ridiculous assumptions or logic gaps.

If say 435,000 passed through the camp, 10,000 deaths would correspond to a 2.3% mortality rate. Implicitly, Numar (and bombsaway) seem to think this is outrageously high, but I don't see why and they've failed to explain their reasoning for this.

Mattogno mentions a labor camp at Belzec as early as 1940. That could also account for some deaths. And if there were deaths starting in 1940 that might be part of the reason why the Kola graves are so scattered and patchy.

10,000 bodies is for sure possible, but becomes silly when you start considering the ash layers. 10,00 bodies worth of ash would makes around 15 cubic meters. Kola's described layers are thousands of cubic meters. Why do you need to mix with sand? Why do you need to spread across 30/33 graves with layers that stretch from one end of the graves to the other? No explanation has been given here, and I don't think one exists.

[bombsaway]

That the investigation you linked from '45 doesn't mention the cabbage being fertilized doesn't mean nobody said it. Hell, go watch 'death mills'.

Your claim

"Because if I recall correctly the original assertion was that the cremains were tinned and sent back to Germany proper to fertilize cabbage.

Now, there are some ashes, so obviously they are the cremains of a half a million dead jews..."

No, there were always "some ashes", or at least since 1945.

[Stubble]

That the investigation you linked from '45 doesn't mention the cabbage being fertilized doesn't mean nobody said it. Hell, go watch 'death mills'.

Your claim

"Because if I recall correctly the original assertion was that the cremains were tinned and sent back to Germany proper to fertilize cabbage.

Now, there are some ashes, so obviously they are the cremains of a half a million dead jews..."

No, there were always "some ashes", or at least since 1945.

Ah, fair. Touche.

I offer an apology for completely missing your point. You are correct.

[Archie]

...

10,000 bodies is for sure possible, but becomes silly when you start considering the ash layers. 10,00 bodies worth of ash would makes around 15 cubic meters. Kola's described layers are thousands of cubic meters. Why do you need to mix with sand? Why do you need to spread across 30/33 graves with layers that stretch from one end of the graves to the other? No explanation has been given here, and I don't think one exists.

Mattogno:

But the graphs of the analyses of the 137 drill cores presented by Kola show that the ash in the graves is normally intermingled with sand, that in more than half of the samples the layer of ash and sand is extremely thin, and that at times the ash is close to being completely absent. Furthermore, out of the 236 samples, 99 are irrelevant, and among the 137 relevant ones more than half show only a very thin layer of sand and ash, whereas among the remainder the percentage of sand is not less than 50%, and the thickness of the sand/ash layer varies greatly. Finally – and Kola does not state this explicitly – besides the sand, the human remains are intermingled also with animal remains: (HH9, pg. 87)

It is unclear what the precise volume of cremains is. You claim "thousands of cubic meters" but you haven't supported that calculation.

You have mentioned the sand a bunch of times, always implying without explanation that this supports your position. In fact it undermines your position because it reduces the amount of actual cremains.

Why are the ashes spread out? This is a "they wouldn't have done it that way" argument. Probably because the bodies were originally buried that way, i.e., in a totally haphazard manner. A few hundred in this grave. A few hundred over here. And so on. And I would argue that goes against your thesis. If you are running an extermination camp and you KNOW you will be receiving 500,000 Jews for mass execution over just several months, might you put the slightest bit of forethought into what you are going to do with these bodies? The grave pattern is consistent with some thousands of deaths that were not really planned on and which were handled in an improvised fashion.

[Nessie]

I’ve been through the Kola thread multiple times and don’t see any kind of response to the questions of: 1) how many bodies revisionists think are buried there; and 2) how those bodies got there, if not by a mass gassing operation.

I’m not asking for proofs so much as for your theories. Because it seems like there are more bodies than what a transit camp would warrant.

As predicted, revisionists will not give a straight answer, that X number of corpses are buried at the camp and they died from Y.

First, no grave in Belzec contains only ashes, and even if it did, the space claimed would not be sufficient to accommodate the 500-600 thousand. Mass murder in Belzec assumes that the Nazis did not register their departures to the East, but not even wood is documented for these camps, and that does not stop you from alleging extraordinary cremations there. Only you demand concrete evidence, when we demand against your theses you keep accusing us of not having an argument for what happened.

Only revisionists reject concrete evidence and that is only when they are asked to evidence what happened. In all other instances, concrete evidence is demanded. The revisionist self-exemption from evidencing, in one instance, is unique in the world of investigation.

[Nessie]

....

If say 435,000 passed through the camp, 10,000 deaths would correspond to a 2.3% mortality rate...

You reveal your failure at the basic task of any investigator.

How many people arrived at Belzec?
How many are buried there?
What did they die of?

Every answer needs corroborating contemporaneous evidence to prove it. Failure to do so, is a failure on your part to complete a basic investigation, proving that revisionists are failed investigators.

[curioussoul]

I’ve been through the Kola thread multiple times and don’t see any kind of response to the questions of: 1) how many bodies revisionists think are buried there; and 2) how those bodies got there, if not by a mass gassing operation.

Still not sure why anti-revisionists on this forum consider the Kola graves such a massive win for Team Holocaust. If anything, the Sobibor graves are more significant, but for other reasons. But to answer your questions:

1) Potentially a few tens of thousands.

2)
a) Dead people from the deportation trains.
b) Dead inmates from the labor camp.
c) Dead inmates from escape attempts/executions.
d) Dead inmates from disease/deprivation.

Of these, (a) would undoubtedly be the biggest category considering how many people were transited through Belzec.

[TlsMS93]

I’ve been through the Kola thread multiple times and don’t see any kind of response to the questions of: 1) how many bodies revisionists think are buried there; and 2) how those bodies got there, if not by a mass gassing operation.

Still not sure why anti-revisionists on this forum consider the Kola graves such a massive win for Team Holocaust. If anything, the Sobibor graves are more significant, but for other reasons. But to answer your questions:

1) Potentially a few tens of thousands.

2)
a) Dead people from the deportation trains.
b) Dead inmates from the labor camp.
c) Dead inmates from escape attempts/executions.
d) Dead inmates from disease/deprivation.

Of these, (a) would undoubtedly be the biggest category considering how many people were transited through Belzec.

This also explains the lack of crematoriums in these camps. Where did the Nazis get the idea that cremating people in the open air with wood they didn't have was more viable than using coal-fired crematoriums? In addition to the absurdity of first burying these millions of people and then deciding that it would be better to cremate them. This is not how a country that conquered Europe and almost defeated the USSR would expect to act.

The exterminationists say that we have no proof of Jews in the East, which is incorrect given the existence of Western Jews found there. They say this as if they had records of hundreds of thousands of trucks delivering wood to these camps or thousands of trains. But somehow they try to explain this with mental gymnastics that the bodies are combustible or that liquid fuel was used, perhaps to aid in the cremation because of the fresh wood that had just been cut but never as the main fuel, as if the Germans were self-sufficient in this regard.

[Nessie]

...
But to answer your questions:

1) Potentially a few tens of thousands.

2)
a) Dead people from the deportation trains.
b) Dead inmates from the labor camp.
c) Dead inmates from escape attempts/executions.
d) Dead inmates from disease/deprivation.

Of these, (a) would undoubtedly be the biggest category considering how many people were transited through Belzec.

An answer. However, it is a bit vague on the death toll and typically for a revisionist, completely lacking in any evidence. Revisionism is hopeless at the basic task of evidencing claims.