A New Revisionist Interpretation of Operation Reinhardt

[Nazgul]

That the times in the timetables do not appear to fit the witness descriptions, can be explained by those timetables being nominal, estimations, that were created to organise the transports, that then did not necessarily run to time. Anyone who has ever used a train, knows that they often do not run to the timetables!

An Fplo is not a timetable. All Fplo, train schedules shows the time it takes to get from one place to another, as well as stopping and starting times. Train schedules are for the precise organizations of rolling stock to avoid crashes, efficient running of the railway. Time tables in comparison are for passengers. The time period from Malkinia to Treblinka is 7 minutes. People who do these plans do not do guestimates like they might do in Scotland with the Hogwarts express. Fplo are not timetables, but a plan to fit in with normal rolling stock schedules. Having used steam trains as normal travel, a very similar distance with about 20 carriages, some passenger, some coal wagons took about 20 -25 minutes. If those witnesses mentioned are correct they must be discussing different trains with different organizational qualities with the railway. They are not the Fplo.

I am not disagreeing with you in this thread your claims of mass arrivals, but these are not, cannot be the Fplo train schedules which took people to jewish labour camps.

[Nessie]

That the times in the timetables do not appear to fit the witness descriptions, can be explained by those timetables being nominal, estimations, that were created to organise the transports, that then did not necessarily run to time. Anyone who has ever used a train, knows that they often do not run to the timetables!

An Fplo is not a timetable.

Translated from Wiki after a search of Fahrplanordnung;

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrplananordnung

"The timetable arrangement (Fplo) is a document with which the timetable specifications..."

Google translate produces "timetable regulations"

Stop trying to lecture me on topics you know nothing about. Yet again, you make an assertion which is contradicted by evidence. You need to learn to evidence your claims.

This is an Fplo that shows the time it takes to get from one place to another. The time period from Malkinia to Treblinka is 7 minutes. People who do these plans do not do guestimates like they might do in Scotland with the Hogwarts express. Fplo are not timetables, but a plan to fit in with normal rolling stock schedules. Having used steam trains as normal travel, a very similar distance with about 20 carriages, some passenger, some coal wagons took about 20 -25 minutes. They have to be different trains with different organizational qualities with the railway.

I am not disagreeing with you in this thread your claims of mass arrivals, but these are not, cannot be the Fplo train schedules which took people to jewish labour camps.

Multiple witnesses refer to Treblinka, corroborated by all the Fahrplanordnungs that also refer to Treblinka. Mass transports regularly arrived at a camp at Treblinka. The descriptions match TII, the AR camp, which was built to received prisoners as the ghettos were being closed down. All the claims that TII did not received mass transports are debunked by the evidence from multiple sources.

Wili Mentz, SS staff at TII, who had previously worked on the T4 euthanasia project;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... speak.html

"When I came to Treblinka the camp commandant was a doctor named Eberl. He was very ambitious. It was said that he ordered more transports that could be “processed” in the camp.
That meant that trains had to wait outside the camp because the occupants of the previous transport had not yet all been killed. At the time it was very hot and as a result of the long wait inside the transport trains in the intense heat many people died."
"Following the arrival of a transport, six to eight cars would be shunted into the camp, coming to a halt at the platform there."

Your quibbling over your inability to match the times on the Fplos with the witness descriptions are not evidential. They prove nothing. It is obvious that you are merely trying to find reasons to doubt the evidence that does not suit your desired belief.

[Nazgul]

Fahrplanordnung;
Google translate produces "timetable regulations"

Fahrplananordnung, note the spelling difference.
timetable arrangement (Fplo)
A timetable arrangement regulates the traffic and use of trains and vehicles, either in addition to or in deviation from the standard timetable during construction work, special trips or special events. ...link
Try the right spelling next time. Do not compare Fplo to passenger time tables, which may be out, or as you said normally are. Yes I am lecturing you due to very sloppy arguments not worthy of a highland secondary school debate.

Multiple witnesses refer to Treblinka, corroborated by all the Fahrplanordnungs that also refer to Treblinka.

Special trains were travelling all the time, they had to support all networks and activities for the war effort. The extensive labour and konzentrationslager camps had trains going to them, all using Fplo.
You need to find Fplo that did not stop for extended periods at the sites of Jewish labour Camps. If trains went to these destinations you claim, they cannot be Fplo that exist today. A steam train with 60 carriages cannot travel 7.5 km in 7 minutes. This is factual. A steam train with a few wagons might.

Mass transports regularly arrived at a camp at Treblinka. The descriptions match TII, the AR camp, which was built to received prisoners as the ghettos were being closed down. All the claims that TII did not received mass transports are debunked by the evidence from multiple sources

.
All you have are witnesses. You rely on these witnesses yet fail to accept the town elders at Wolka Okrąglik who have the extermination camp, or what they thought was an extermination camp in a different location to the judenlagers you currently call TII. Even the OSS called this Kosow Lacki within Sokołów County, Masovian Voivodeship. The extermination camp they said was south of their town. TII is north of their town. I would accept that the town elders are more credible than the witnesses you describe, as is Marian Olszuk.

Wili Mentz, SS staff at TII, who had previously worked on the T4 euthanasia project;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... speak.html

"When I came to Treblinka the camp commandant was a doctor named Eberl. He was very ambitious. It was said that he ordered more transports that could be “processed” in the camp.
That meant that trains had to wait outside the camp because the occupants of the previous transport had not yet all been killed. At the time it was very hot and as a result of the long wait inside the transport trains in the intense heat many people died."
"Following the arrival of a transport, six to eight cars would be shunted into the camp, coming to a halt at the platform there."

I would have little doubt that 14f13 did occur at the Judenlagers near TI. Only trained and presumably registered men were allow to carry this out. This is no different to the Sobibor reports. A single event, but nothing to the suggestion of Jewish extermination. One one hand these people perished, but as you said in a post above the SS gave Wiernik and his fellow travellers water.

In those days trains carried a few passenger vehicles as well as wagons for carrying goods, such as coal, rocks, timber. If people in trains died of heat, they were already sick and sent for euthanasia.
It is highly likely this T4 person was aktioning 14f13; this is the only reason for their deployment to outposts. If people were being exterminated any fool can do that with no credentials.

Your quibbling over your inability to match the times on the Fplos with the witness descriptions are not evidential. They prove nothing. It is obvious that you are merely trying to find reasons to doubt the evidence that does not suit your desired belief.

There have been many successful prosecutions due to timing differences, especially going to a place to commit a murder and get back again. I will say it again. A steam train with 60 carriages full of people cannot go 7.5 km from rest to stopping in 7min. This fact is evidential and would be accepted by a court.

[Nessie]

An Fplo is not a timetable....

....
Fahrplananordnung,
timetable arrangement (Fplo)
A timetable arrangement regulates the traffic and use of trains and vehicles...

You then go on to quote;

"....either in addition to or in deviation from the standard timetable during construction work, special trips or special events."

That is exactly what the AR transports were, additions to the standard timetabled trains. They were timetables to run around and in conjunction with the standard trains. That they would not necessarily run to time, or as initially planned is obvious.

A steam train with 60 carriages cannot travel 7.5 km in 7 minutes.

Which means that entry was likely made in error.

All you have are witnesses. You rely on these witnesses...

The witnesses are corroborated by multiple documents recording mass arrivals at TII. You have no witnesses at all, who worked inside TII, or lived nearby, who say that camp was not receiving mass transports.

I would have little doubt that 14f13 did occur at the Judenlagers near TI

Every single German member of staff who worked at TII, came from T4. What you think happened, is unimportant. It is what is evidenced to have happened that is important.

There have been many successful prosecutions due to timing differences, especially going to a place to commit a murder and get back again. I will say it again. A steam train with 60 carriages full of people cannot go 7.5 km from rest to stopping in 7min. This fact is evidential and would be accepted by a court.

All the prosecution needs to do is point out that 7 minutes is an error on the document. That error will not cause the entirety of the claim to collapse. The multiple witnesses, local Poles, Jews and Nazis all giving evidence of mass arrivals at the camp, along with the transport records and other documents, prove what happened.

The evidence to support PR's claim that only property arrived at the camp, is non-existent. Your contradictory argument of the timetables that are not timetables and there were no mass arrivals at the camp, which you then present evidence of mass arrivals, is also all over the place.

[Nazgul]

That is exactly what the AR transports were, additions to the standard timetabled trains. They were timetables to run around and in conjunction with the standard trains. That they would not necessarily run to time, or as initially planned is obvious.

I disagree with your interpretation of AR. I have said many times, that Fplo may have been used for (((AR))) but they were also used for transportation to labour camps. Fplo are not normal passenger timetables but are calculated to show the exact travel time from place to place and expected arriving and departing times. This is the only way that the network can stay in sync, like an airport control tower. The Fplo control all the other trains, everything has to work in sync. They know it takes it exactly 7 mins for the engine with whatever carriages to get from Malkinia to Treblinka, wherever it is. It is exact timing then now like it is for aircraft to get from the US to China, with slight leeway.

A steam train with 60 carriages cannot travel 7.5 km in 7 minutes.

Which means that entry was likely made in error.

No, the next entry also specifies 7 minutes. 9.00 -9.07. Fplo 567 dated 6 May,43 gives 8 minutes. This is not an error, but systematic.


I would have little doubt that 14f13 did occur at the Judenlagers near TI

Every single German member of staff who worked at TII, came from T4. What you think happened, is unimportant. It is what is evidenced to have happened that is important.

The Dutch Survivors at Sobibor, actual witnesses only describe 14f13. Shooting of the decrepit. A few believed the rumours and had the opinion they were gassed. Most mention shooting of invalids.

There have been many successful prosecutions due to timing differences, especially going to a place to commit a murder and get back again. I will say it again. A steam train with 60 carriages full of people cannot go 7.5 km from rest to stopping in 7min. This fact is evidential and would be accepted by a court.

All the prosecution needs to do is point out that 7 minutes is an error on the document. That error will not cause the entirety of the claim to collapse. The multiple witnesses, local Poles, Jews and Nazis all giving evidence of mass arrivals at the camp, along with the transport records and other documents, prove what happened.

There is no error in the document. You cannot change facts to hold a cherished belief. Sorry Nessie but you are stuffed on this one.

[Nessie]

That is exactly what the AR transports were, additions to the standard timetabled trains. They were timetables to run around and in conjunction with the standard trains. That they would not necessarily run to time, or as initially planned is obvious.

I disagree with your interpretation of AR.

There is no disagreement with interpretation. Every single witness who worked at TII, or was on a transport, or worked on the local railways, reported mass arrivals. There are multiple documents reporting mass arrivals. There is only one way to interpret such documents.

I have said many times, that Fplo may have been used for (((AR))) but they were also used for transportation to labour camps. Fplo are not normal passenger timetables but are calculated to show the exact travel time from place to place and expected arriving and departing times.

Why do you think they are going to be 100% accurate and reliable? It is quite normal for trains to not run to time.

This is the only way that the network can stay in sync, like an airport control tower. The Fplo control all the other trains, everything has to work in sync. They know it takes it exactly 7 mins for the engine with whatever carriages to get from Malkinia to Treblinka, wherever it is. It is exact timing then now like it is for aircraft to get from the US to China, with slight leeway.

A steam train with 60 carriages cannot travel 7.5 km in 7 minutes.

Which means that entry was likely made in error.

No, the next entry also specifies 7 minutes. 9.00 -9.07. Fplo 567 dated 6 May,43 gives 8 minutes. This is not an error, but systematic.

Please link to documents so they can be checked. I have searched for a Fplo 567 and found this;

https://www.holocausthistoricalsociety. ... ments.html

"Fahrplananordnung 567
26 March 1943
Tschentochau - Treblinka"

Where do you get the 8 minutes between Malkinia and Treblinka from? The document shows Malkinia 6.20 and then Treblinka also 6.20.

I would have little doubt that 14f13 did occur at the Judenlagers near TI

Every single German member of staff who worked at TII, came from T4. What you think happened, is unimportant. It is what is evidenced to have happened that is important.

The Dutch Survivors at Sobibor, actual witnesses only describe 14f13. Shooting of the decrepit. A few believed the rumours and had the opinion they were gassed. Most mention shooting of invalids.

That is evidence the camps were used to kill people. It is also evidence of mass arrivals, which you deny.

There have been many successful prosecutions due to timing differences, especially going to a place to commit a murder and get back again. I will say it again. A steam train with 60 carriages full of people cannot go 7.5 km from rest to stopping in 7min. This fact is evidential and would be accepted by a court.

All the prosecution needs to do is point out that 7 minutes is an error on the document. That error will not cause the entirety of the claim to collapse. The multiple witnesses, local Poles, Jews and Nazis all giving evidence of mass arrivals at the camp, along with the transport records and other documents, prove what happened.

There is no error in the document. You cannot change facts to hold a cherished belief. Sorry Nessie but you are stuffed on this one.

If it is not a typo error on the original, it can still be an error of interpretation, as to what exactly the times are referring to. Minor details like a time in a timetable that you insisted is not a timetable, whilst quoting it is a timetable, do not bring all the evidence of mass arrivals down. You are the one with the cherished belief that not only can you not evidence, you produce evidence to the contrary!

[Nazgul]

"Fahrplananordnung 567
26 March 1943
Tschentochau - Treblinka"

Where do you get the 8 minutes between Malkinia and Treblinka from? The document shows Malkinia 6.20 and then Treblinka also 6.20.

Look carefully, Malkinia was left in the special plan (sonderplan) at 6.20, the arrival at the destination was 6.28.


You failing to distinguish between a time table to enable people to wait at a station for a train to catch and a scheduling order is entirely your affair. A steam train cannot go 7.5 km with 60 wagons and 6 000 people in 7 or 8 minutes from stationary and then stop.

[bombsaway]

"Fahrplananordnung 567
26 March 1943
Tschentochau - Treblinka"

Where do you get the 8 minutes between Malkinia and Treblinka from? The document shows Malkinia 6.20 and then Treblinka also 6.20.

Look carefully, Malkinia was left in the special plan (sonderplan) at 6.20, the arrival at the destination was 6.28.


You failing to distinguish between a time table to enable people to wait at a station for a train to catch and a scheduling order is entirely your affair. A steam train cannot go 7.5 km with 60 wagons and 6 000 people in 7 or 8 minutes from stationary and then stop.

As I pointed out to PR, the train likely stopped at Treblinka station not T-II. This is going by the witness testimonies which said trains stopped at the station and then were taken in piecemeal fashion to the camp. I believe Nessie is mistaken in his assertions about the fplo documents.

It seems like it's about 2 miles

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/images/l ... df9160.gif

So let me ask you, what was the Treblinka stop, if not that station?

[Nazgul]

As I pointed out to PR, the train likely stopped at Treblinka station not T-II. This is going by the witness testimonies which said trains stopped at the station and then were taken in piecemeal fashion to the camp. I believe Nessie is mistaken in his assertions about the fplo documents.

It seems like it's about 2 miles

So let me ask you, what was the Treblinka stop, if not that station?

Thanks for your reply bombsaway. The road from Malkinia followed the old railway. The Treblinka station was adjacent to the Treblinka settlement. The distance from Malkinia boundary to Treblinka settlement by road is 4.6 km (2.8 miles) via DW627, the station is about 0.8km from the boundary. A car would take 5 minutes to drive that distance. As mentioned a steam train fully laden could not do that trip in 7 minutes, perhaps 15 - 20, Not only do trains take a long time to get to speed, they take a long distance to slow down to come to a halt. I believe a single steam engine with a few carriages could traverse that small distance in the time period specified.

If you look above you will see the image of the Treblinka station with the 3 shunting lines. A siding for passing is much shorter and only needs one. The only reason why these sidings exist would be because of the the quarry location and the removal of the rocks. Sidings only occur at sites of major industry as the quarry is or railway junctions where wagons are dropped off to go another direction on a different engine. This is how rolling stock works.

Apart from the alleged TII, there was the arbeitslager TI and two Judenlagers in separate camps. I believe the current TII is the site of the Judenlagers (men and women separated). The town elders of Wolka Okrąglik insist there was an extermination camp a short distance south of their village. This is in the Kosow Lacki area. The OSS referred to this camp as Kosow Podlaski. TII incidently is a short distance north of the village. I doubt if village elders would make a fundamental error.

Due to the first map by Wiernik and the similarities with the aerial pic of Malkinia camp, I am certain that this was referred to as Treblinka, exactly as Scharführer Josef Hirtreiter mentioned at his trial. Below is the image of the Malkinia camp alongside the first map of Wiernik he called Treblinka.

[bombsaway]

Thanks for your reply bombsaway. The road from Malkinia followed the old railway. The Treblinka station was adjacent to the Treblinka settlement. The distance from Malkinia boundary to Treblinka settlement by road is 4.6 km (2.8 miles) via DW627, the station is about 0.8km from the boundary. A car would take 5 minutes to drive that distance. As mentioned a steam train fully laden could not do that trip in 7 minutes, perhaps 15 - 20,

I asked the AI a fair question I think that you could replicate (Claude Sonnet)

imagine a train in the 1940s carrying 6,000 people plus luggage in 20 cars
what is a reasonable amount of time that it could make a 2.8 mile journey, from full stop to full stop (between stations), provide a range of time
be detailed in your calculations, including acceleration and deceleration profiles

Let me break this down step by step, considering the technology and conditions of 1940s rail transport.
1940s Train Journey Speed ProfileClick to open image
Let me break down the calculation for this journey:
Key Assumptions:

1940s steam locomotive with passenger cars
Heavy load (6,000 passengers plus luggage)
Level track with standard gauge
Good weather conditions
Typical station approach/departure precautions

Calculation:

Acceleration Phase:


Typical acceleration rate: 0.5-0.7 mph/s for loaded passenger trains
Using conservative 0.5 mph/s due to heavy load
Time to reach cruising speed of 40 mph: ~80 seconds
Distance covered during acceleration: ~0.4 miles


Cruising Phase:


Cruising speed: 40 mph (conservative for 1940s passenger service)
Distance to cover at cruise: ~2.0 miles
Time at cruise speed: ~180 seconds


Deceleration Phase:


Typical deceleration rate: 0.8-1.0 mph/s
Using 0.8 mph/s for passenger comfort
Time to decelerate from 40 mph to stop: ~50 seconds
Distance covered during deceleration: ~0.4 miles

Total journey profile:

Minimum time: ~310 seconds (5 minutes 10 seconds)
Maximum time: ~360 seconds (6 minutes)

The range accounts for variables such as:

Track conditions
Weather
Exact loading conditions
Signal status
Station approach procedures
Driver behavior

Engineering constraints:

Rail adhesion limits
Passenger comfort
Braking system capabilities
Power output of 1940s steam locomotives
Track geometry

I've created a speed profile diagram showing the acceleration, cruise, and deceleration phases. The range of 5:10 to 6:00 minutes represents a realistic window for this journey under normal operating conditions in the 1940s.

So basically your estimate is completely unconvincing to me and I think your whole case is deeply questionable since it seemed to hinge on this fact.

Regarding your other point, can you trace a route between Malkinia station and the stop of your supposed Treblinka? Show me on google maps. This would be my proposed distance between Malkinia and Treblinka station (2.4 miles, so shorter than your estimate, further cutting down the time)

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/52.6932 ... FQAw%3D%3D

[Nazgul]

This distance from Malkinia train station to Treblinka village is 6 min (5.0 km) via DW627 by car. The train tracks run alongside the road. While the speed limit in Poland on non urban roads is 90km/h it is delusional to somehow think a steam train with 60 carriages, 6000 people can do the trip in the same time as a modern car. AI obviously has limitation.

Keep in mind that there were reports that the Treblinka camp was some 4 km NW of the Treblinka village.

The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, says:

“[Treblinka] was situated in a sparsely populated area near Malkinia,
a railway station on the main Warsaw-Białystok line; the camp’s precise
location was 2.5 miles (4 km) north west of the village and railway stop of
Treblinka. The site selected was heavily wooded and well hidden from
view.
The camp was laid out in a rectangle 1,312 feet wide by 1,968 feet long
(400 x 600 m),

Since this material was published by Germar the location and geometry of the camp have been altered to fit the current narrative. link

The location of the Malkinia camp mentioned fits the general location and description, though directly north of the station. As you know the TII camp is a kind of trapezoid shape and certainly not rectancular.

Here is the image that I think was in Germars book (correct me if I am wrong) of the area and the location of the Malkinia Transit Camp, which I suspect was also called Treblinka. This is where I believe Wiernik was and not the current TII. On google maps it is exactly 4 km from the station.

[bombsaway]

This distance from Malkinia train station to Treblinka village is 6 min (5.0 km) via DW627 by car. The train tracks run alongside the road. While the speed limit in Poland on non urban roads is 90km/h it is delusional to somehow think a steam train with 60 carriages, 6000 people can do the trip in the same time as a modern car. AI obviously has limitation.

I think you have a limitation. The speed limit is irrelevant because a 5 km trip at 90 kmph would take less than 3.5 minutes. So in that case the train is twice as slow. Your arguments here aren't remotely convincing.

Show me on the Google map where you think the fplos Treblinka stop was please.

[Nazgul]

I think you have a limitation.

The error is yours.

Show me on the map where you think the fplos Treblinka stop was please.

The travel information can be found by using google. Those roads are not US Highways. When trains leave railway stations they have to go very slow for some distance. The factor to take into account is that the rail Junction to Siedlce via Treblinka is some 800 m from the station. The train would have to go very slow until then as it goes through the points heading towards Siedlce, making a gradual left hand turn. Only then can it accelerate to a crusing speed.

Show me on the map where you think the fplos Treblinka stop was please.

You can see in the aerial photo above the locatin of the Treblinka station.

[Nazgul]

As mentioned to Bombsaway the distance to the junction and hence the Malkinia camp is about 800m. A few years ago I went on a steam train went 900m, the darn thing took 15 minutes, going slow as they do going over highways, bridges etc. Took twenty minutes going back. This was my experience as a kid when steam trains were regular. They were slow. Maybe just our steam engines.

I suspect that due to the slow speed of the train the 800m to Malkinia camp could be done in 7 minutes. Evidence is pointing in that direction.

It is clear in the above post that the car travelling from Malkinia station to Treblinka is travelling a comfortable 50 km/h.

[Nessie]

"Fahrplananordnung 567
26 March 1943
Tschentochau - Treblinka"

Where do you get the 8 minutes between Malkinia and Treblinka from? The document shows Malkinia 6.20 and then Treblinka also 6.20.

Look carefully, Malkinia was left in the special plan (sonderplan) at 6.20, the arrival at the destination was 6.28.
....

You failing to distinguish between a time table to enable people to wait at a station for a train to catch and a scheduling order is entirely your affair. A steam train cannot go 7.5 km with 60 wagons and 6 000 people in 7 or 8 minutes from stationary and then stop.

You cannot rule out a typo. You also cannot rule out that the Fplo only records a movement from Malkinia to near to Treblinka station and not the final shunting into the camp.

What does that document prove? It certainly does not cancel out all the evidence for mass arrivals at TII.