The CODOH Revisionist Forum

Nessie wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 10:13 am

Then after 3 months, he went to Skarzysko-Kamiennna. You have failed to follow the basic chronology. That is not evidence of trains stopping between Westerbork and Sobibor to let people off.

I said: Many people got off at the camps by train, such as Alec Cohen from Sobibor; not to Sobibor.

Nessie wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:39 am Until you can evidence, with witnesses or other documents, that people got off at the stations indicated in the Fplos that terminated at Treblinka, then there is no point in me showing you the evidence that did not happen, again and again.

Logical fallacy:
argumentum ad ignorantiam. 'The fallacy is committed when one asserts that a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true.'

Nessie asserts that the notion, people got off the trains at the various stops, is false, because there is no proof that some disembarked.

Nazgul wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 11:09 am

Nessie wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:39 am Until you can evidence, with witnesses or other documents, that people got off at the stations indicated in the Fplos that terminated at Treblinka, then there is no point in me showing you the evidence that did not happen, again and again.

Logical fallacy:
argumentum ad ignorantiam. 'The fallacy is committed when one asserts that a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true.'

Nessie asserts that the notion, people got off the trains at the various stops, is false, because there is no proof that some disembarked.

Wrong, I assert that it is false people got off the trains at various stops, because of the evidence from Polish, Jewish and German witnesses and documents, that people did not get off.

Nessie wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 3:58 pm
Wrong, I assert that it is false people got off the trains at various stops, because of the evidence from Polish, Jewish and German witnesses and documents, that people did not get off.

What specific Fplo document do those witnesses refer to. People were transported by train to those camps, all of which had their own Fplo. Sadly all the Fplo documents apart from those who mention Treblinka station as the final destination have disappeared. There is nothing special about Fplo they are still used today for special trains which are not regular.

Nazgul wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 11:08 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 3:58 pm
Wrong, I assert that it is false people got off the trains at various stops, because of the evidence from Polish, Jewish and German witnesses and documents, that people did not get off.

What specific Fplo document do those witnesses refer to. People were transported by train to those camps, all of which had their own Fplo. Sadly all the Fplo documents apart from those who mention Treblinka station as the final destination have disappeared. There is nothing special about Fplo they are still used today for special trains which are not regular.

Those shuttle trains, going to TII and back to origin, as the ghettos were being closed down, are referred to by both witnesses and in the Fplos. Some transports from smaller ghettos were likely one offs, others, such as Warsaw, as the document specifies, returned empty and shuttled back and forth.

You are obsessed by this, thinking you have found something significant. All you are doing is contradicting other revisionist, such as PR in this thread, who argues the transports carried property, not people. Others, such as Hunt and Mattogno argued they were part of a transit, resettlement project, with TII a transit stop. I think you have also argued the AR camps operated as customs stops, where some people were euthanised. Scott claims TII was a hygiene station, to prevent the spread of disease.

All these competing revisionist interpretations of AR and none of them can produce any evidence from inside the camp, to prove they are correct. The resulting mess is proof that revisionists cannot produce evidenced history.

Nessie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 9:44 am

Nazgul wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 11:08 pm What specific Fplo document do those witnesses refer to.

Those shuttle trains, going to TII and back to origin, as the ghettos were being closed down, are referred to by both witnesses and in the Fplos.

You have no idea that the witnesses were referring to the few Fplo documents in existence. In fact no one apart from rail staff would know of the Fplo, certainly not the passengers. The likelhood of the Fplo trains transiting passengers at the labour camps is extremely high. There is little evidence to suggest otherwise for the Fplo transports. Perhaps the extermination trains were so secret they did not have Fplo. The Fplo are evidence Jews were dropped off at labour camps.

Nazgul wrote: ↑Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:28 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 9:44 am

Nazgul wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 11:08 pm What specific Fplo document do those witnesses refer to.

Those shuttle trains, going to TII and back to origin, as the ghettos were being closed down, are referred to by both witnesses and in the Fplos.

You have no idea that the witnesses were referring to the few Fplo documents in existence. In fact no one apart from rail staff would know of the Fplo, certainly not the passengers. The likelhood of the Fplo trains transiting passengers at the labour camps is extremely high. There is little evidence to suggest otherwise for the Fplo transports. Perhaps the extermination trains were so secret they did not have Fplo. The Fplo are evidence Jews were dropped off at labour camps.

The Fplos are also as much evidence that the stops were to pick more Jews up to take them to TII. When I did what you did not and looked at the evidence of the nearest camps to the stops, that is what was happening. Those camps closed down before TII and some did send transports to TII.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 3:23 pm The Fplos are also as much evidence that the stops were to pick more Jews up to take them to TII. When I did what you did not and looked at the evidence of the nearest camps to the stops, that is what was happening. Those camps closed down before TII and some did send transports to TII.

The Mainstream has always interpreted "sifted through the camps of General Government" narrowly as a 1-way, nonstop ticket directly to the gas chamber. But passengers getting both on and off at various stops as they are transferred or transported to various camps would be more consistent with that passage from the report.

So sure, it's probable that people got on AND got off at these stops, hence these transports were intended to sift Jews throughout a large number of camps. What is clear though is that the Fplo documents do not document a stop at the TII camp at all.

PrudentRegret wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 4:06 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 3:23 pm The Fplos are also as much evidence that the stops were to pick more Jews up to take them to TII. When I did what you did not and looked at the evidence of the nearest camps to the stops, that is what was happening. Those camps closed down before TII and some did send transports to TII.

The Mainstream has always interpreted "sifted through the camps of General Government" narrowly as a 1-way, nonstop ticket directly to the gas chamber. But passengers getting both on and off at various stops as they are transferred or transported to various camps would be more consistent with that passage from the report.

So sure, it's probable that people got on AND got off at these stops, hence these transports were intended to sift Jews throughout a large number of camps.

Normally, the probability of an event is determined by evidence, from eyewitnesses, documents etc. What criteria do you use to determine the probability of an event, such as whether people got on and off the transports?

What is clear though is that the Fplo documents do not document a stop at the TII camp at all.

Every single Fplo that I have discussed with Nazgul, has Treblinka as its final stop. Every Jewish witness on the transports, and every Polish witness who worked on the railways or lived near to Treblinka, speaks to mass transports of people into the AR camp TII. Every single witness who worked inside the AR camp TII speaks to it receiving mass arrivals. The Treblinka in the Fplos refers to TII.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 4:18 pm Every single Fplo that I have discussed with Nazgul, has Treblinka as its final stop. Every Jewish witness on the transports, and every Polish witness who worked on the railways or lived near to Treblinka, speaks to mass transports of people into the AR camp TII. Every single witness who worked inside the AR camp TII speaks to it receiving mass arrivals. The Treblinka in the Fplos refers to TII.

We have established, and Nick Terry has tacitly admitted, that the "Treblinka" as the final stop in the Fplos did not refer to the alleged extermination camp we call "T-II". It could not have referred to that camp simply because the time tables do not support that conclusion, T-II was too far away from Malkinia. Treblinka refers to the station and there is no indication whatsoever of a stop at "T-II" in any Fplo.

The Ostbahn workers testified to bringing the deportees to Malkinia, and the judge accused them of colluding in their testimony because he was confused as to why they didn't admit to bringing the deportees to the actual "extermination camp" that was about 7.5km from Malkinia.

PrudentRegret wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 8:31 pm The Ostbahn workers testified to bringing the deportees to Malkinia, and the judge accused them of colluding in their testimony because he was confused as to why they didn't admit to bringing the deportees to the actual "extermination camp" that was about 7.5km from Malkinia.

The narrative is that the wagons were placed on a siding, with a shunting engine taking the carriages to the camps. If that information could be verified about the passengers being taken to Malkinia that would be great. Fplo documents clearly show that the trains arrived at Treblinka station two ways, via Siedlce or via Malkinia. The train stopped at Treblinka for 1.5 hours in nearly all cases. After leaving Treblinka the trains continued on wards, though steam trains often go backwards. They decouple, go onto another track, go back and recouple. Steam engines never move by themselves, they always have wagons, making it a train. No doubt they would be taking rocks back by the quarry, which is the real reason for the track from the arbeitslager TI. The SS would be too mean to pay for a train with no cargo.
Another interesting point bought up elsewhere before is that Fplo 587 has the travel time from Malkinia to Treblinka 7 mins. Having had considerible experience on steam trains that journey, 7.5 km, normally takes at least 20 mins. Steam trains take a long time to get up to travel speed. I doubt if a modern locomotive could do it in that time. This is the reason why the location of this Treblinka is much closer than the railway station. I am considering it was the Malkinia camp, named Treblinka which was closer or the loop railway junction east of Malkinia. This is why I think that Wierniks first map of Treblinka alongside the Warsaw-Bialystok line is the correct one. The map coincides with the aerial photo of the Malkinia camp. Below is a an aerial image of the Malkinia camps next to the first Wiernik map. The only difference is the railway line to the left. The main line is to the south of the aerial pic.

Malkinia aerial photo of Malkinia camp compared to Wierniks first map of Treblinka.

Work in progress.

PrudentRegret wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 8:31 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2024 4:18 pm Every single Fplo that I have discussed with Nazgul, has Treblinka as its final stop. Every Jewish witness on the transports, and every Polish witness who worked on the railways or lived near to Treblinka, speaks to mass transports of people into the AR camp TII. Every single witness who worked inside the AR camp TII speaks to it receiving mass arrivals. The Treblinka in the Fplos refers to TII.

We have established, and Nick Terry has tacitly admitted, that the "Treblinka" as the final stop in the Fplos did not refer to the alleged extermination camp we call "T-II". It could not have referred to that camp simply because the time tables do not support that conclusion, T-II was too far away from Malkinia. Treblinka refers to the station and there is no indication whatsoever of a stop at "T-II" in any Fplo.

The Ostbahn workers testified to bringing the deportees to Malkinia, and the judge accused them of colluding in their testimony because he was confused as to why they didn't admit to bringing the deportees to the actual "extermination camp" that was about 7.5km from Malkinia.

You cannot cherry-pick away all the witnesses who state the mass transports went to the AR camp TII, the camp constructed in 1942, on the line to the TI camp and quarry. That camp had a rail spur running into it. The circumstantial evidence is that transports often stopped at Malkinia, waiting their turn to enter the camp. The AR arrivals came at such a pace that in effect the queue started at that junction. Wiernik specifically mentioned that in his testimony. It makes sense, so as not to block the line at Treblinka itself, and the camp could only receive parts of a transport at a time.

When you cherry-pick evidence to construct your version of events, you are committing yet another logical fallacy. By ignoring evidence that contradicts you, you will end with an obviously faulty conclusion. Archie hates it when I point out the flaws in revisionist arguments and evidencing, but it is where you are at your weakest and it is the reason why you have fallen for the Holocaust denial hoax.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 8:53 am You cannot cherry-pick away all the witnesses who state the mass transports went to the AR camp TII, the camp constructed in 1942, on the line to the TI camp and quarry. That camp had a rail spur running into it. The circumstantial evidence is that transports often stopped at Malkinia, waiting their turn to enter the camp. The AR arrivals came at such a pace that in effect the queue started at that junction. Wiernik specifically mentioned that in his testimony. It makes sense, so as not to block the line at Treblinka itself, and the camp could only receive parts of a transport at a time.

Nonsense, Treblinka station had a siding as do most railway stations where wagons sit. Wiernik said many things he recanted such as his first map. Even Zabecki said that the carriages waited on a siding at the station and shunted down the spur line. It is clear you have no idea what is what.
The image below of Treblinka prior to the line being dismantled, show the main line with three shunting lines to the right.

When you cherry-pick evidence to construct your version of events, you are committing yet another logical fallacy. By ignoring evidence that contradicts you, you will end with an obviously faulty conclusion. Archie hates it when I point out the flaws in revisionist arguments and evidencing, but it is where you are at your weakest and it is the reason why you have fallen for the Holocaust denial hoax.

This is now a mantra which is used in almost every post, here and elsewhere. It is said so often it has no meaning. There is a thread below to discuss such nonsense. As Archie said, you do not know what you are talking about. I agree.

Yankiel Wiernik, who was on a transport;

https://web.archive.org/web/20220309084 ... iernik.htm

"Amidst untold torture, we finally reached Malkinia, where our train remained for the night."
"In the morning our train got under way again."
"Until noon I suffered greatly from thirst. Then a German, who subsequently became the "Hauptsturmfuehrer," entered our car and picked out ten men to bring water for us all."
"At 4 P.M. the train got under way again and, within a few minutes, we came into the Treblinka Camp"

So, the transport spends the night at Malkinia, then it moves nearby to TII and waits during the day, till it makes a short trip in the afternoon into the camp.

Franciszek Zabecki who worked at the Treblinka station;

https://www.holocausthistoricalsociety. ... aster.html

"...we had had a telegram announcing the arrival of shuttle trains from Warsaw with ‘resettlers.’"
"...a train arriving late in the evening, was kept overnight at the Treblinka village station..."
"...two German railwaymen who supervised the shunting of the deportation trains from the Treblinka station to the death camp."

Jozef Pogorzelski, train dispatcher, Treblinka;

https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/pub ... DAgN3Y7N2o

"As for the way the transports were handled at the Treblinka railway station, it was as follows. When a transport arrived, it was manned by two German railwaymen, employed at the station especially for that purpose, who usually divided the transport into three parts with each one being gradually pushed by a shunting steam engine onto a siding which led to the camp."

Kazimierz Gawkowski, pointsman, Treblinka;

https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/pub ... DAgN3Y7N2o

"A transport usually consisted of 60 wagons; after it had arrived at the Treblinka railway station, it was divided into three parts, each with 20 wagons, which were gradually moved onto the ramp of the Treblinka extermination camp. This was done by a shunting steam engine, which came to the Treblinka railway station from Małkinia specially for that purpose."

Malkinia was just a stop, used depending on space at the Treblinka station, where the shunting took place to take trains into the camp. This contradicts all the unevidenced revisionist claims that trains arrived either largely empty, or just carrying property.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 10:00 am "A transport usually consisted of 60 wagons; after it had arrived at the Treblinka railway station, it was divided into three parts, each with 20 wagons, which were gradually moved onto the ramp of the Treblinka extermination camp. This was done by a shunting steam engine, which came to the Treblinka railway station from Małkinia specially for that purpose."

Malkinia was just a stop, used depending on space at the Treblinka station, where the shunting took place to take trains into the camp. This contradicts all the unevidenced revisionist claims that trains arrived either largely empty, or just carrying property.

A train with 60 wagons does not mean they were full; it does not say what kind of wagons they were. It must be remembered that there was a quarry there with rocks needed for essential war effort. There were also two judenlagers. I would agree that the shunter came from Malkinia as main engines do not really shunt unless they have to.

According to Fplo 548 the train stopped at Malkinia for about 20 minutes. It then took 7 minutes to reach the 7.5 km distance to the Treblinka station. This has been discussed previously. 60 carriages is an enormous mass, and steam trains are not powerful, taking many km to get to full speed. It is a physical impossibility for a steam train with 60 carriages full of people to travel 7.5 km in 7 min. It would have to do an average velocity of 62.5 km/h. (39 mph) This might be possible if the engine had the carriages removed except for the few needed at the arbeits and juden lagers with a few people on board. This is the only way such a steam train could accelerate to that speed. The track was straight so yes it might. This shows that Fplo 548 was not 60 wagons or even close to it when it reached Treblinka station.