The CODOH Revisionist Forum

curioussoul wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:16 pm What about the location of Treblinka (Belzec & Sobibor) in relation to its supposed primary purpose as a sorting facility for confiscated goods? It was located right on the eastern border of Poland, crossing into former Soviet territory with different railway gauge sizes. The location of these camps has been stated as one of the key evidences for their purpose as transit camps. Unless I'm missing something, it makes little sense for Treblinka II to have primarily been a sorting facility when it was located - essentially - out in the middle of nowhere, in the forest close to the Ukrainian border. That makes a whole lot of sense if it was primarily a transit camp, though.

That theory is contradicted by evidence directly pertaining to TII, so it does not make much sense.

In my view, it's possible that TII served a dual function as a sorting facility for goods seized from the Jews being deported eastwards, but this wouldn't have been its primary function. If we assume that TII, Sobibor and Belzec served the same purpose, it has to be pointed out that Sobibor is referred to as a "Durchgangslager" in a document from Himmler. It is the only instance in which one of the AR camps are referred to explicitly as a transit camp. This meaning is easy to carry over to Belzec and TII.

The evidence from workers inside TII is that they bagged property taken from the Jews, which was then sent to Lublin to be sorted. PR's theory, as with your theory of a transit camp, ignores such evidence.

In Thomas Kues' series on the presence of 'gassed' Jews in the OET, there is significant evidence of Sobibor serving as a sorting station for confiscated goods as well. Jews from the Netherlands who were deported to Sobibor and (according to Kues) transited through to the Baltics had the goods seized and sorted as Sobibor.

Kues looked at the primary evidence of Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor and secondary reports of property from Dutch Jews in Lithuania and concluded that is evidence the Dutch originally sent to Sobibor went to Lithuania. He is clearly scratching at straws with that one. No wonder he stopped producing revisionist works after that.

Revisionist standards of evidencing are so poor, that their theories would fail even at a school level of scrutiny.

Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:49 amThat theory is contradicted by evidence directly pertaining to TII, so it does not make much sense.

Given the evidence for resettling the extermination hypothesis makes even less sense.

The evidence from workers inside TII is that they bagged property taken from the Jews, which was then sent to Lublin to be sorted.

What evidence in particular are you referring to?

Revisionist standards of evidencing are so poor, that their theories would fail even at a school level of scrutiny.

What in particular was wrong about Kues' Sobibor argument?

Archie wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 2:40 pm I checked Gerwarth's bio of Heydrich to see what he claims. Robert Gerwarth, Hitler's Hangman: The Life of Heydrich

There is one sentence in the main text about the naming of Aktion Reinhardt.

In 'honour' of Heydrich, the extermination programme in the General Government was given the operational name 'Aktion Reinhardt'.

That's it. And then in the footnote, he just says some people (like Koehl) have said it was after Fritz Reinhardt but he dismisses this because he says Heydrich spelled it both ways. He relies on this paper (which is the same thing Sergey relied on). Peter Witte and Stephen Tyas, "A New Document on Deportation ..."

https://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/zhura ... tation.pdf

The main arguments for it being named after Heydrich seem to be,

1) There are variant spellings of Heydrich's first name. Therefore, the -dt spelling could refer to him and might explain the inconsistent spellings of the codename.
2) The earliest use of the codename was not long after Heydrich's death (~two months, according to Wikipedia).
3) And this is the main one, 'It does seem inherently unlikely that a murderous operation of the complexity of "Aktion Reinhard" would be named after an economist."

These points are not conclusive, or even very persuasive, in my opinion.

Here what Koehl says about it in his book from 1957. The whole book is free on archive.org.
https://archive.org/details/rkfdv-germa ... -1939-1945

curioussoul wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 8:18 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:49 amThat theory is contradicted by evidence directly pertaining to TII, so it does not make much sense.

Given the evidence for resettling the extermination hypothesis makes even less sense.

There is a lack of evidence of resettlement. For example, Eric Hunt looked for evidence of transports back out of TII and he only found a few transports totalling a few thousand people, who went to labour camps south or east of TII, not the east.

https://studylib.net/doc/7233192/trebli ... ist-edited

The evidence from workers inside TII is that they bagged property taken from the Jews, which was then sent to Lublin to be sorted.

What evidence in particular are you referring to?

From workers such as Krzepicki, who was assigned to the undressing area;

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/holocau ... t1916.html

"I took away the women’s shoes, tied them in pairs and put
them down outside on a pile, to be carried away to the assembly point."

"They were told that in Maidanek near Lublin
and in other camps the Jews had been given paper clothing and that the clothing
with which they had come had been gathered together, sorted out, and forwarded
to Germany to be reconditioned."

Revisionist standards of evidencing are so poor, that their theories would fail even at a school level of scrutiny.

What in particular was wrong about Kues' Sobibor argument?

What argument is that? I would surmise that because you refer to it as an argument, that it lacks evidence. Like your argument in this post about the evidence of resettlement. You suggest there is a lot, when in fact there is very little.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 8:00 amThere is a lack of evidence of resettlement. For example, Eric Hunt looked for evidence of transports back out of TII and he only found a few transports totalling a few thousand people, who went to labour camps south or east of TII, not the east.

What's been demonstrated is that Jews deported to TII, Sobibor and Belzec were not categorically murdered in gas chambers and many can be proven to have been transfered elsewhere. Current research indicates the open-air cremations and the unearthing of the corpses did not take place, meaning we need to look for alternative explanations for what happened to the unaccounted for Jews who were supposedly deported to these camps.

From workers such as Krzepicki, who was assigned to the undressing area;

"I took away the women’s shoes, tied them in pairs and put
them down outside on a pile, to be carried away to the assembly point."

I think we can all agree that sorting of Jewish belongings took place in TII. There's witness evidence that the Jews were being prepared for resettlement in the East, such as this account from one of the Polish underground resistence reports that reached London in September 1942:

"[...] an SS officer greeted them very politely and said the following, word for word: ‘You have worked too little up to now for the German State, and because of this the German Reich has decided to resettle you in the Ukraine, so that you work more. You are in a transit camp here. You will proceed directly to the bath.’"

In The Black Book of Polish Jewry published in English in 1943, a similar account was told:

"Looking around, they see a high pillar with a poster bearing a large inscription: Achtung Warschauer (Attention, natives of Warsaw) despite the fact that transports of Jews from many other towns of the General Government, from Germany and the states of Western Europe are also brought to Treblinka. ‘Do not worry about your fate,’ continues the poster. ‘You are all going eastward for work; you will work and your wives will take care of your households. Before leaving, however, you have to take a bath and your clothing must be disinfected. You have to deposit your valuables and money with the cashier (of Treblinka) for which you will get receipts. After the bath and disinfection, you will receive everything back unharmed.’"

What argument is that? I would surmise that because you refer to it as an argument, that it lacks evidence. Like your argument in this post about the evidence of resettlement. You suggest there is a lot, when in fact there is very little.

Since you commented on it I figured you knew his argument. He demonstrated that specific trains carrying Dutch Jews to Sobibor ended up in the OET.

curioussoul wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2024 3:03 am

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 8:00 amThere is a lack of evidence of resettlement. For example, Eric Hunt looked for evidence of transports back out of TII and he only found a few transports totalling a few thousand people, who went to labour camps south or east of TII, not the east.

What's been demonstrated is that Jews deported to TII, Sobibor and Belzec were not categorically murdered in gas chambers and many can be proven to have been transfered elsewhere.

How has that been demonstrated?
How many are proven to have been transported to other camps?

Current research indicates the open-air cremations and the unearthing of the corpses did not take place, meaning we need to look for alternative explanations for what happened to the unaccounted for Jews who were supposedly deported to these camps.

What research?

From workers such as Krzepicki, who was assigned to the undressing area;

"I took away the women’s shoes, tied them in pairs and put
them down outside on a pile, to be carried away to the assembly point."

I think we can all agree that sorting of Jewish belongings took place in TII. There's witness evidence that the Jews were being prepared for resettlement in the East

How is stealing everything the Jews came to TII with, down to their shoes, preparation for resettlement in the east? They would need their personal possessions for resettlement.

, such as this account from one of the Polish underground resistence reports that reached London in September 1942:

"[...] an SS officer greeted them very politely and said the following, word for word: ‘You have worked too little up to now for the German State, and because of this the German Reich has decided to resettle you in the Ukraine, so that you work more. You are in a transit camp here. You will proceed directly to the bath.’"

That fits with the corroborated testimony of people being told they were going for a shower, when the showers were in fact gas chambers. Descriptions of gas chambers made to look like showers are corroborated by finding remains of tiles matching witness descriptions.

In The Black Book of Polish Jewry published in English in 1943, a similar account was told:

More evidence to corroborate the gassing narrative. You contradict your suggested narrative with the first quote from Krzepicki, as he is sorting shoes to take them away, not to return them to people after they have showered.

Since you commented on it I figured you knew his argument. He demonstrated that specific trains carrying Dutch Jews to Sobibor ended up in the OET.

I like the way you say "demonstrated" rather than evidenced, as you tacitly admit that there is no evidence. All those Dutch people and not one single eyewitness. Revisionists cannot evidence their theories.

Nessie wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2024 11:46 am

borjastick wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2024 6:37 am I've said it before and I'll say it here again. Treblinka 2 the claimed extermination camp was a layover, transit camp for the overwhelmed Malkinia junction mainline station a few kms back up the track. Pure and simple. You will hear the historical claims that people who went to Treblinka never came out and were killed very shortly after arrival. But in the real world we know that many many many people and trains left Treblinka a few hours or even a day later and went back into the sytem of camps.

Eric Hunt collated reports of transports back out of TII here;

https://studylib.net/doc/7233192/trebli ... ist-edited

It only amounts to an occasional transport, it totals only a few thousand people and all the transports went to labour camps west or south of TII. None were for resettlement in the east.

It's only the delicate egos of the hard exterminationists who continue this theory of it being a death camp yet when questioned and when confronted with the evidence of the opposite they get all worked up and fragile.

Deniers are too lazy to do what I did with that document. Let alone go further. Because they can't find more transited Jews or they are too lazy? Which one? Inquiring minds want to know.

curioussoul wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:16 pm What about the location of Treblinka (Belzec & Sobibor) in relation to its supposed primary purpose as a sorting facility for confiscated goods? It was located right on the eastern border of Poland, crossing into former Soviet territory with different railway gauge sizes. The location of these camps has been stated as one of the key evidences for their purpose as transit camps. Unless I'm missing something, it makes little sense for Treblinka II to have primarily been a sorting facility when it was located - essentially - out in the middle of nowhere, in the forest close to the Ukrainian border. That makes a whole lot of sense if it was primarily a transit camp, though.

The location of the Treblinka Sorting Camp would count against the transit camp hypothesis IMO. Your argument applies to Malkinia but does not apply to the Treblinka camp which was about 7.5km away. The Treblinka camp was not "right on the eastern border of Poland", it was off a small spur which branched from the Malkinia-Siedlce line. On the other hand, from the Malkinia junction a train could then go in any direction. The Malkinia junction would have been the location where the railway gauges would have switched.

The non-existent "platform" at T-II couldn't even hold a single train, or even half of a single train:



So the argument this Treblinka camp was used so passengers could switch gauges applies to Malkinia but not to the Treblinka camp. In contrast with Treblinka, Malkinia had the infrastructure to accommodate many trains of different gauges:



So the "gauge switching going East" argument works for Malkinia and it doesn't work for the Treblinka camp.

Likewise NONE of the existing Fahrplananordungen shows the trains going to the Treblinka camp. They do show the trains stopping at junctions like Malkinia or Siedlce. The documents prove the trains stopped there.

The Ostbahn workers also testified that they brought the deportees to Malkinia and not to "the" Treblinka Sorting Camp, much to the annoyance of the court.

There were also reports of postcards from Malkinia. So:

• "T-II" could not have been used for passengers to switch gauges/trains given the "platform" could not even hold a single train.
• Malkinia, on the other hand, actually would have served as a Transit junction where train and gauge switching would have happened. Unlike "Treblinka" it actually had the infrastructure to do this.
• The Fahrplananordungen all show deportation trains from Warsaw stopping in Malkinia.
• Not a single Fahrplananordungen shows the deportation trains going to "T-II".
• There were postcards sent by deportees from Malkinia.
• Ostbahn workers testified to bringing the deportees to Malkinia and not to the Treblinka Camp 7km away.
• The notion that 800,000 people were "shunted" from Malkinia to "T-II" is only supported by very sparse and unreliable witness testimony, and not a single shred of documentary evidence.
• What happened was that wagons of confiscated property were indeed sent to T-II for the economic operation Reinhardt, and this was mistaken as an extermination operation. The exact same thing happened at Trawniki and the Lublin Airfield Camp, in which the economic operation Reinhardt was interpreted by investigators as an extermination operation.

erichunt420 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 7:02 am Deniers are too lazy to do what I did with that document. Let alone go further. Because they can't find more transited Jews or they are too lazy? Which one? Inquiring minds want to know.

You're asking for 'transited Jews' no one was looking for, for nearly 50 years, in places they likely wouldn't have survived in to begin with; all behind an 'Iron Curtain', and in addition to the fact of narratives of this kind clearly being falsified to suggest 'extermination' (hence myriad false atrocity stories).

Your assumption that there must be 'transited Jews' found and identified as such is invalid. The burden of proof is upon exterminationists to prove extermination; but problems with their crime scene, murder weapon, claimant behavior, and patterns of deception suggest strongly that their claims are false and are, in any case, unsubstantiated.

Callafangers wrote: ↑ Your assumption that there must be 'transited Jews' found and identified as such is invalid. The burden of proof is upon exterminationists to prove extermination; but problems with their crime scene, murder weapon, claimant behavior, and patterns of deception suggest strongly that their claims are false and are, in any case, unsubstantiated.

The problem is one of suggestion. History isn't written solely on this basis, when you do so you are opening yourself up to bias. 'Strongly' is subjective. see this thread for more viewtopic.php?t=86

I respect Eric Hunt the Revisionist much more than posters like PReg who says eg the treblinka track was narrow gauge. He could prove it if he went to Poland, or any poster that subscribed to this theory, but no one has th commitment seemingly.

Eric Hunt the Revisionist was wrongheaded in my view but at least he gave his movement the seriousness it deserved. If you're trying to change history, that's a huge deal. Holocaust being overturned in popular history would be a historical event in and of itself. Out of curiosity Eric, when you went to Poland, did you try to find witnesses? It occurs to me that even now many people in that area had parents who were young adults during the 40s and would have a good idea of what was really happening there. Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor have a few hundred people still living there, and probably stories have been passed down about what made these places famous. Why haven't revisionists done this kind of work?

bombsaway wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2024 5:11 am I respect Eric Hunt the denier much more than posters like PRegreg who says eg the treblinka track was narrow gauge. He could prove it if he went to Poland, or any poster that subscribed to this theory, but no one has th commitment seemingly.

There was a narrow track in Treblinka, which PR had the opinion, went all the way to Malkinia. However, the Malkinia-Siedlce track was standard as was the shunting track from Treblinka to the labour camp. Here is a photo of the narrow guage track at Treblinka. PR was investigating possibilities, not making firm statements, which is the aim of forums, discussion, not pontification from the pulpit. When PR was discussing the subject on RODOH II, I went to st view google earth to view the track into Treblinka. Coincidently a road crew was there blocking the view. Years later it has not been updated.

Treblinka narrow guage.

Nazgul wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2024 6:23 am

bombsaway wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2024 5:11 am I respect Eric Hunt the denier much more than posters like PRegreg who says eg the treblinka track was narrow gauge. He could prove it if he went to Poland, or any poster that subscribed to this theory, but no one has th commitment seemingly.

There was a narrow track in Treblinka, which PR had the opinion, went all the way to Malkinia. However, the Malkinia-Siedlce track was standard as was the shunting track from Treblinka to the labour camp. Here is a photo of the narrow guage track at Treblinka. PR was investigating possibilities, not making firm statements, which is the aim of forums, discussion, not pontification from the pulpit. When PR was discussing the subject on RODOH II, I went to st view google earth to view the track into Treblinka. Coincidently a road crew was there blocking the view. Years later it has not been updated.

Treblinka narrow guage.

You could prove all of this if you just went there like Eric Hunt did. T2 to Malkinia was narrow gauge, Siedlice did not go to T2 as the documents indicate. Until then it's just questionable analysis of photos.

bombsaway wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2024 6:25 am You could prove all of this if you just went there like Eric Hunt did. T2 to Malkinia was narrow gauge, Siedlice did not go to T2 as the documents indicate. Until then it's just questionable analysis of photos.

Treblinka to Malkinia was not narrow guage, but standard. This is proven by the Fplo documents which had transports travelling from Warsaw to Treblinka via both Malkinia and Siedlce. There was no bogey changing system in either town and this takes hours or days. There was a railway standard track from Siedlce to Malkinia. There was a shunting track from Treblinka railway station to the camp and quarry.

Muzeum Treblinka say regarding narrow rail:
This rail was discovered by scientists from the Warsaw University of Technology during archaeological works near the gravel pit in 2016. Signature OП3 83 IV indicates that it was manufactured by Putilov Company in St. Petersburg in 1883.

Nazgul wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2024 6:41 am

bombsaway wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2024 6:25 am You could prove all of this if you just went there like Eric Hunt did. T2 to Malkinia was narrow gauge, Siedlice did not go to T2 as the documents indicate. Until then it's just questionable analysis of photos.

Treblinka to Malkinia was not narrow guage, but standard. This is proven by the Fplo documents which had transports travelling from Warsaw to Treblinka via both Malkinia and Siedlce. There was no bogey changing system in either town and this takes hours or days. There was a railway standard track from Siedlce to Malkinia. There was a shunting track from Treblinka railway station to the camp and quarry.

Muzeum Treblinka say regarding narrow rail:
This rail was discovered by scientists from the Warsaw University of Technology during archaeological works near the gravel pit in 2016. Signature OП3 83 IV indicates that it was manufactured by Putilov Company in St. Petersburg in 1883.

It also says: a gravel pit belonging to the “Lublin Granite and Gravel Mines” company was opened. A special railway siding was built, and the found rail was probably an element of the system of transporting the spoil to the siding itself.

So this has nothing to do with transports of Jews.

I only briefly glanced at PR's narrow gauge thread but I recall this was the gist of it, we should let him clarify his claims here if what I said needs correction.

bombsaway wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2024 6:46 am So this has nothing to do with transports of Jews.

I only briefly glanced at PR's narrow gauge thread but I recall this was the gist of it, we should let him clarify his claims here if what I said needs correction.

He is researching it, I disagree with his conclusions at the time, though all of history of the era is important even if it is some narrow guage line from the quarry to wherever. Probably to transport rocks in a timely manner. Many timber mills have such tracks to cart logs around. RODOH is more suited to discuss such historical matters than this forum on non holocaust histories.