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Re: What is the revisionist account of where the jews went?

Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2024 12:49 am
by Callafangers
curioussoul wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 11:09 pm
Callafangers wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 5:28 pm
  • My family and Larry's family have been in an extreme, violent, back-and-forth feud with one another for years.
  • Larry's family gains some power for a few years and they keep my family locked up behind bars during that time.
  • Recently, my family gained absolute power and control over the entire town, its police department, archives, and everything in-between.
  • Nobody denies my family wanted revenge on Larry's family, and we indeed carried out violent acts against them, but there were limitations on what we could "get away with" in the broader public eye.
  • Winning over the "public eye" was extremely important for us, in order to maintain power and to keep Larry's family permanently in-check.
  • During the earlier feud, Larry's family had reportedly transported my grandma to an undisclosed area -- one which my family now controls, 100%.
  • My family and I promise that we never found my grandma there, once we took over, and we swear that Larry's family tortured her to death with hot pokers and battery acid... but we offer no verifiable/forensic evidence of any kind to support our claims.
Do you believe me (and my family)?
That parable should be easy to digest for most people. :D
Let's add on the fact that my family also owns all of the media/entertainment networks and we've now made a gazillion movies (and museums, etc.) about the unfortunate plight of my grandma and her "hot poker demise"... :cry: :roll:

Since we own the police stations and all the judges, it's also illegal to challenge the hot poker story... If you do, we call you "grandma denier", which is pretty much the worst thing anyone can be...

Re: What is the revisionist account of where the jews went?

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 6:42 am
by Waldgänger
curioussoul wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 11:05 pm I'll keep it short in case OP is actually interested and not trolling: the Jews were deported to the Occupied Eastern Territories, where the Germans were planning on settling them by the end of the war. These "Jewish regions" were slated to become semi-independent 'states' where Jewry could live outside of Europe. This policy is extremely well-documented. What's less well-documented is exactly where they went, how they ended up there and what happened to them after the war. Thomas Kues wrote some wonderful articles about this topic about a decade ago, if you search CODOH for "Evidence for the Presence of 'Gassed' Jews in the Occupied Eastern Territories".

I've posited the idea (along with many others, such as Butterfangers) that most of the Jews deported from Poland and transited through the Reinhardt camps ended up in (essentially) open-air shelters and probably starved to death or died from deprivation by the end of the war. It's hard to fathom how extensive the German camp system in the Occupied Eastern Territories was, and to this day most camps are virtually unknown.

What's clear is that German military leaders and local SS authorities in Eastern Europe were swamped on a weekly basis by tens of thousands of deported Jews they had no means of accomodating. The drivers of the deportation policy were in Berlin and, in typical German "leadership fashion", local commanders were simply told by higher-ups to get things done and solve massive logistical problems that simply could not be solved in any serious way, sometimes in mere days or even hours. This created a situation wherein literally millions of people were haphazardly deported to be resettled "in the East" but where local commanders found no way to seriously accomodate them until the end of the war. And when the frontline started shrinking, these people were simply left behind to flee, starve, die, rebel, or be caught up with the Soviets, who sometimes reported on the thousands of Western and Polish Jews who "somehow" had ended up in the far east of Europe. But for the most part, the Soviets did not report on these people because it sought to bolster the narrative of mass extermination they had been disseminating since 1941.
I find this basically compelling. Millions of people must've moved through those camps, all of them undocumented beyond the Polish border because they were going to an entirely new life. Whether that life ended in work camps or resettlement ghettos (that existed only on paper), or behind the Iron Curtain, it's impossible to say. We don't have information. The Soviets were also quick to categorise all deaths in the war as Soviet citizens, never as specific minorities. This muddle combines to make the tracing of individuals or populations impossible.

The orthodox narrative always makes suggestive comments about the inbound capacity of this rail network (for genocidal purposes), leaving out the fact that it was also an ideal hub for sending many people outbound as well. Spending time with survivor testimony makes it clear that many people were transported through, out of, or even released from Birkenau during the war (and a small handful from the Rheinhardt camps too). These supposed extermination facilities, tip-top secret, were letting many people see their hellish infernos and smell the infamous stench of burning corpses, then sending them on their merry way all over Europe? It makes no sense at all.

The most parsimonious explanation is that the NS state's internal policy documents we do have (on deportation, resettlement, etc.) are honest and straightforward. Jews were moved beyond Poland. The problem is that this puts them nearer the war zone of the most titanic conflict in human history, one of unrivalled brutality, disease, starvation, burning partisans out of hiding places, artillery shellings and airforce bombings that consumed up to 20 million lives. I'm willing to bet many of the "6 million" are part of that number, anywhere from Bialystok to Smolensk -- a front that was almost 650km/400 mi deep during the height of the eastern conflict in 1942-1944. To say that millions of people were lost in this space is an exaggeration.

Beyond the aspect of hot conflict, know from Rassinier that the first days of a new camp or settlement saw prisoners sleeping rough waiting for the wood, nails, wire, etc. to arrive so they cold begin building their own prisons. Many deported jews were older, 40s+, as we know from the decreasing jewish birth rates of the 1920s-30s. They were also superstitious or obstreperous people who refused treatment or concealed signs of lice or disease or refused to trim hair for religious reasons (Crowell's Gas Chamber of Sherlock Holmes is very informative in this way). Combine this with ignorance of modern scientific disinfection procedures and hygiene, and many probably caused their own demise. Those who could survive typhus and lower food rations were destroyed by physical labour. As that lamentable HBO film about the Wannsee Conference put it, "most of these jews have never lifted anything heavier than a pencil". and were therefore casualties.

Anyone who is not convinced by this ambiguity would do well to think about reported soviet casualties, military and civilian. They range to an absurdly wide degree, something like 30-65 million. If you posit a lower number, anyone can say "what happened to the X million others then?", but it's not a meaningful question. Statistical estimates are not humans. And in the case of Auschwitz, we have many survivor stories of people who were deported there and didn't get a number, but were sent elsewhere. Simple as.

Re: What is the revisionist account of where the jews went?

Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:54 pm
by Hans
This thread inspired me to a friendly reminder:

Still Waiting: Where Did The Jews "Evacuated to The East" Go?

Re: What is the revisionist account of where the jews went?

Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2024 5:55 am
by Callafangers
Hans wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:54 pm This thread inspired me to a friendly reminder:

Still Waiting: Where Did The Jews "Evacuated to The East" Go?
Where are the corpses, Hans? Where are the murder weapons? Where did the wood (for cremations) come from? Why don't you have any documentary record, whatsoever, of the largest manual logging operation in history? Very strange.

Re: What is the revisionist account of where the jews went?

Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2024 7:10 am
by Nazgul
Hans wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:54 pm This thread inspired me to a friendly reminder:

Still Waiting: Where Did The Jews "Evacuated to The East" Go?
There are many reports of Jews sent to the east to places such as Bobruysk, Mezaparks who returned ending up in various labour camps or concentration camps. Many died due to atrocious weather and disease. Measles killed 500 kids in Latvia. Korherr mentions 1,449,692 Jews evacuated east. Those who hadn't perished returned often via Stuttgart konzentrationslager. The westward drive commenced as soon as the tide of the war began to turn. New camps of all kind were built progressively west.

Here are the camps in 1942, sadly the eastern ones are missing.
Image
Here are the camps in 1944
Image

The 1941 at the bottom of each image are the boundaries of that year.

Re: What is the revisionist account of where the jews went?

Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2024 8:51 pm
by Callafangers
Nazgul wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 7:10 amsadly the eastern ones are missing.
The eastern ones are here (interactive map; hover over any location for more details; red is a single camp, green is a cluster/multiple):

https://www.mapcustomizer.com/map/Zwang ... ndUkraine7

Notice the closing dates for many of them are very late in the war; long after the implementation of any 'final solution' policy. This isn't to say there were not more secure quarantine sites (there apparently were), just that Jewish labor was apparently being utilized long after and to a larger extent than is often believed.

Re: What is the revisionist account of where the jews went?

Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2024 11:37 pm
by fireofice
Callafangers wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 8:51 pm
Nazgul wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 7:10 amsadly the eastern ones are missing.
The eastern ones are here (interactive map; hover over any location for more details; red is a single camp, green is a cluster/multiple):

https://www.mapcustomizer.com/map/Zwang ... ndUkraine7

Notice the closing dates for many of them are very late in the war; long after the implementation of any 'final solution' policy. This isn't to say there were not more secure quarantine sites (there apparently were), just that Jewish labor was apparently being utilized long after and to a larger extent than is often believed.
If these are all confirmed camps and everything, I'm confused why the "where did they go" argument is still being used. They're right there! Case closed! What else is there to say on this?

Re: What is the revisionist account of where the jews went?

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:50 am
by Archie
Hans wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 9:54 pm This thread inspired me to a friendly reminder:

Still Waiting: Where Did The Jews "Evacuated to The East" Go?
Hallo, Hans.

You say that you consider where-did-they-go to be a conclusive KO argument. To me, it would be at best a supplementary argument. I doubt anyone is going to accept the Holocaust based primarily on this sort of reasoning if they think the evidence is lacking for the gas chambers, the final solution, etc.

Also, if you really want to pursue this line of argument, I think you would do better not to phrase it as a challenge but to go a bit further and try to prove the negative, i.e., show that the Jews could not have survived.

I gave a few more thoughts here:
https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=58

Re: What is the revisionist account of where the jews went?

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 1:01 am
by Archie
Callafangers wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 8:51 pm
Nazgul wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 7:10 amsadly the eastern ones are missing.
The eastern ones are here (interactive map; hover over any location for more details; red is a single camp, green is a cluster/multiple):

https://www.mapcustomizer.com/map/Zwang ... ndUkraine7

Notice the closing dates for many of them are very late in the war; long after the implementation of any 'final solution' policy. This isn't to say there were not more secure quarantine sites (there apparently were), just that Jewish labor was apparently being utilized long after and to a larger extent than is often believed.
Here's a map I saved of ghettos. I think I got this from Lamprecht. Maybe hermod.
Image

https://archive.is/BoTEy

Re: What is the revisionist account of where the jews went?

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 1:21 am
by Callafangers
fireofice wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 11:37 pm
Callafangers wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 8:51 pm
Nazgul wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 7:10 amsadly the eastern ones are missing.
The eastern ones are here (interactive map; hover over any location for more details; red is a single camp, green is a cluster/multiple):

https://www.mapcustomizer.com/map/Zwang ... ndUkraine7

Notice the closing dates for many of them are very late in the war; long after the implementation of any 'final solution' policy. This isn't to say there were not more secure quarantine sites (there apparently were), just that Jewish labor was apparently being utilized long after and to a larger extent than is often believed.
If these are all confirmed camps and everything, I'm confused why the "where did they go" argument is still being used. They're right there! Case closed! What else is there to say on this?
There are other NS reports which indicate, perhaps, much lower numbers of Jews being officially reported as in labor camps in these territories, within latter years of the war. Most of these reports are ambiguous, etc., as to where they specifically refer or in what particular context. The question is also whether Jews were considered 'removed' from the territories once they were isolated, etc., versus necessarily being gassed/shot/buried underground. The latter lacks evidence, in most cases (and entirely, for 'gassing').

Re: What is the revisionist account of where the jews went?

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 7:38 am
by Nazgul
Callafangers wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 1:21 am The question is also whether Jews were considered 'removed' from the territories once they were isolated.
Judenfrei ("free of Jews") and judenrein ( "clean of Jews") are two important concepts. 'While judenfrei refers merely to "freeing" an area of all of its Jewish inhabitants, the term judenrein (literally "clean of Jews") has the even stronger connotation that any trace of Jewish blood had been removed as an alleged impurity.
Judenfrei describes the local Jewish population having been removed from a town, region, or country by forced evacuation going to a labour camp or konzentrationslager, isolating them. Judenrein means removing them completely out of the county. Some think murdered.

Re: What is the revisionist account of where the jews went?

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 7:03 pm
by Callafangers
Nazgul wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 7:38 am
Callafangers wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 1:21 am The question is also whether Jews were considered 'removed' from the territories once they were isolated.
Judenfrei ("free of Jews") and judenrein ( "clean of Jews") are two important concepts. 'While judenfrei refers merely to "freeing" an area of all of its Jewish inhabitants, the term judenrein (literally "clean of Jews") has the even stronger connotation that any trace of Jewish blood had been removed as an alleged impurity.
Judenfrei describes the local Jewish population having been removed from a town, region, or country by forced evacuation going to a labour camp or konzentrationslager, isolating them. Judenrein means removing them completely out of the county. Some think murdered.
I need to read more into specific use-cases but I would think that even for "clean of Jews", we may be dealing with a scenario where Jews have simply been removed from all spheres of society in a given area; much like "cleaning up our streets" when referring to criminals does not strictly mean killing the criminals (although it could entail this) but, rather, isolating them in ways which they can no longer impact nor influence society. Even the ghettos would still corrupt and influence the cities around them, as it is known the black markets persisted in and out of these enclosures. But it is hard to fathom that a town or city whose Jews had been transported 1,000km+ away into a secured imprisonment or encampment would not be considered "clean of Jews"; or that entire administrative areas in which all populated areas were 'cleaned' in this way could not be regarded as such, overall.

Re: What is the revisionist account of where the jews went?

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 1:50 am
by Numar Patru
This whole thread is just a bunch of silliness.

There’s an easy way to answer the question of where the murdered Jews went.

The standard history says around six million Jews were killed. Fully 10% of those Jews were sent to a single camp: Belzec.

If you believe these Jews were resettled elsewhere, I’m asking for proof for a tiny percentage. Can you identify six Jews sent to Belzec who turned up someplace else after the war? That’s just 1/10,000th of the total number of Jews killed.

Regarding your likely objection, as seen in this thread, it’s been 30+ years since the Soviet regime fell and its records were opened. Anyone who knows anything about Soviet resettlement policies knows that these actions were meticulously documented. That Stalin would refuse to have millions of Jews being settled or sent to labor camps documented simply beggars belief. No serious scholar of the USSR will tell you otherwise.

Who’s up for the challenge? I can provide the list of towns and ghettos sending their Jews to Belzec and can provide lists of Jews for many of these towns. All you have to do is say you agree to the challenge.

Re: What is the revisionist account of where the jews went?

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 2:26 am
by Callafangers
Numar Patru wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2024 1:50 am This whole thread is just a bunch of silliness.

There’s an easy way to answer the question of where the murdered Jews went.

The standard history says around six million Jews were killed. Fully 10% of those Jews were sent to a single camp: Belzec.

If you believe these Jews were resettled elsewhere, I’m asking for proof for a tiny percentage. Can you identify six Jews sent to Belzec who turned up someplace else after the war? That’s just 1/10,000th of the total number of Jews killed.

Regarding your likely objection, as seen in this thread, it’s been 30+ years since the Soviet regime fell and its records were opened. Anyone who knows anything about Soviet resettlement policies knows that these actions were meticulously documented. That Stalin would refuse to have millions of Jews being settled or sent to labor camps documented simply beggars belief. No serious scholar of the USSR will tell you otherwise.

Who’s up for the challenge? I can provide the list of towns and ghettos sending their Jews to Belzec and can provide lists of Jews for many of these towns. All you have to do is say you agree to the challenge.
Numar, welcome to the forum. You're asking a question that assumes a whole lot:
  • You assume a certain number of the Jews sent East could have survived the war (what number could have survived?)
  • You assume the Iron Curtain could have only limited the discovery of Jews by X amount (how many Jews is X? I.e. how ineffective was the Iron Curtain?)
  • You assume Jews sent East could have survived many years post-war (how many years/Jews?)
  • You assume researchers were asking Jews about their eastbound travels under the Nazi regime (who was asking, and when?)
  • You assume Jews are generally motivated to expose Holocaust-related exaggerations (then why so little call-outs of false witnesses?)
  • You assume no ideological or tribal motivations drive Jews to allow or embellish more elaborate 'Holocaust' narratives (but these motives are significant)
  • You assume Allied governments did not conspire and collaborate to falsify a narrative (then why were they all caught falsifying claims of German atrocities, numerous times, and never holding each other accountable in this regard?)
Overall, the argument you are implying via your question is an invalid one:
  • "If revisionists cannot pinpoint any of these Jews, they were all 'exterminated' in a gas chamber."
There are many ways global superpowers, after winning the entire world at war, can develop systems which portray a certain narrative, including fabricating, filtering, and distorting evidence to suit their agenda (this is what happens when you obtain all of your enemy's records and archives, imprison them all, and hold their families hostage). Jewish power and motives (e.g. Zionism) complicate these questions even further.

While "where did they go?" is a question not so easily verified, what can be verified is whether or not there are millions of Jewish corpses buried underground in the exact places where they were allegedly buried. And we can now confirm: no, the corpses (of any incriminating scale) are simply not there.

We can also use reason and logical inferences to deduce that: if mass cremation operations of millions of Jews occurred in these places, massive amounts of fuel would be necessary. Yet, in addition to the extremely-problematic witness claims in this regard, there is no evidence the delivery or access to the required fuel (we are talking many tens of thousands of massive deliveries, at minimum -- giant semi trucks, massive oil tankers, entire forests cleared of trees, etc. -- yet we have nothing at all: no documents attesting to such deliveries, not even witnesses who have claimed such things happening).

Similarly, the murder weapons (gas chambers, gas vans) are not there. None have been physically found, no blueprints nor even contemporary reports from Germans, etc. (all we have is contemporary and often clearly false narrative-spinning from propagandists, and rumors from various individuals hearing these stories and then documenting these same stories in their diaries, etc.). Contemporary, verifiable documentation of any kind making clear any Jewish extermination program or policy is not there (whereas such evidence is there for transit/resettlement/quarantine, and explicitly so).

What we can also confirm are extensive patterns of provable lies, stark inconsistencies, etc., even among key witnesses -- all sharing the similar pattern of fabricating or embellishing the scale and nature of alleged German atrocities. This is a huge problem, especially given the fact that witness testimony is presented as the most important form of evidence, from the exterminationist's perspective. Of course, this perspective itself is misguided, as physical/forensic evidence always trumps documentary/testimonial evidence, wherever the two conflict.

In short, your question is not so important nor meaningful against the revisionist view as you have seemed to imply. Victorious powers had the motive and, most importantly, the means to rewrite history -- that is what happens when you win a world war. Unfortunately, they failed to secure their narrative in key areas (e.g. evidence of corpses, cremation, FeCN concentrations, witness and documentation consistency/credibility/accuracy, etc.) which revisionists have since exposed.

Re: What is the revisionist account of where the jews went?

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 2:36 am
by Numar Patru
I’ve spent the last hour or so reading Nick Terry’s long posts about the available evidence. You’re all wet in your allegations about lack of evidence.

Finding six Jews who survived Belzec should be a cake walk if half of what you allege is true. That you won’t take the challenge shows how weak your case is.

But I’m willing to make my challenge even easier: You don’t need to locate six Jews who were sent to Belzec who survived the war. Just find me six sent to Belzec who are known to have died somewhere else. Piece of cake if your claims have any weight.

Let me remind you of something. Among the people who would have been victimized by false claims of Jewish extermination would have been Jewish survivors themselves, many of whom would have believed their loved ones were dead. Do you think they just gave up looking?

I can tell you that, during the first couple of decades of Israel’s existence, newspapers routinely listed classified ads of people declaring that they were indeed alive and seeking friends and relatives. Reunions of family members separated during the war were relatively common.

You don’t seem very knowledgeable about basic facts or how history works. Perhaps someone more adept at these things will accept my challenge.