The CODOH Revisionist Forum

Great to see that you've backtracked from your original statement

There is no evidence of torture or coercion, of the SS death camp staff put on trial in West and later unified Germany,

Well in the West they were tortured still, as I provided above these were US or UK guards, but unified Germany is 45 years after the war.

You said

The vast majority of witness evidence did not come from conditions of torture and coercion.

This is your response to torture of Nuremberg Trials and other Post-War trials, which as I provided, it was true there was torture of some of the most important witnesses.

Again, you can't quantify who was tortured, so "the vast majority" must be substantiated by you. Which is impossible, for torture would have to be recorded, which luckily in many cases it was.

Also defenders of the Holocaust story have also taken extreme measures to prosecute perpetrators of the alleged crimes. John Demjanjuk was found not guilty by the Israeli Supreme Court in 1993 of being Ivan the Terrible at Treblinka. Demjanjuk returned to his home in Cleveland, Ohio and looked forward to a peaceful retirement after spending many years on death row in Israel. Unfortunately, in 2001 Demjanjuk was charged again on the grounds that he had instead allegedly been a guard named Ivan Demjanjuk at the Sobibór camp in Poland. On May 11, 2009, Demjanjuk was deported from Cleveland to be tried in Germany. On May 12, 2011, Demjanjuk was convicted by a German criminal court as an accessory to the murder of 27,900 people at Sobibór and sentenced to five years in prison. No evidence was presented at Demjanjuk’s trial linking him to specific crimes.

Even given this example, it would even make me confess whatever it took to not be sentenced.

WW2History wrote: ↑Tue Mar 18, 2025 12:33 am Great to see that you've backtracked from your original statement

There is no evidence of torture or coercion, of the SS death camp staff put on trial in West and later unified Germany,

Well in the West they were tortured still, as I provided above these were US or UK guards, but unified Germany is 45 years after the war.

You said

The vast majority of witness evidence did not come from conditions of torture and coercion.

This is your response to torture of Nuremberg Trials and other Post-War trials, which as I provided, it was true there was torture of some of the most important witnesses.

Again, you can't quantify who was tortured, so "the vast majority" must be substantiated by you. Which is impossible, for torture would have to be recorded, which luckily in many cases it was.

I can quantify where there is evidence of torture or coercion and where there is not. There is none for all the SS camp staff trials in West and Unified Germany, which makes up the majority of the staff and trials.

Also defenders of the Holocaust story have also taken extreme measures to prosecute perpetrators of the alleged crimes. John Demjanjuk was found not guilty by the Israeli Supreme Court in 1993 of being Ivan the Terrible at Treblinka. Demjanjuk returned to his home in Cleveland, Ohio and looked forward to a peaceful retirement after spending many years on death row in Israel. Unfortunately, in 2001 Demjanjuk was charged again on the grounds that he had instead allegedly been a guard named Ivan Demjanjuk at the Sobibór camp in Poland. On May 11, 2009, Demjanjuk was deported from Cleveland to be tried in Germany. On May 12, 2011, Demjanjuk was convicted by a German criminal court as an accessory to the murder of 27,900 people at Sobibór and sentenced to five years in prison. No evidence was presented at Demjanjuk’s trial linking him to specific crimes.

Even given this example, it would even make me confess whatever it took to not be sentenced.

There is no evidence of coercion of Demjanjuk. That you are weak and would confess to a crime that you did not commit, does not mean that all the SS who confessed are weak and liars. Indeed, ex-SS, from the death camps, should be regarded as some of the most tough and resilient of people.

Nessie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 18, 2025 9:42 am I can quantify where there is evidence of torture or coercion and where there is not. There is none for all the SS camp staff trials in West and Unified Germany, which makes up the majority of the staff and trials.

Many of SS did not make it to trial due to being summarily executed by allied soldiers and police.
During the Dachau liberation reprisals, German SS troops were killed by outraged U.S. soldiers and concentration camp prisoners at the Dachau concentration camp on April 29, 1945, during World War II.

The outrage was caused by the straffing of a transport of Jews by allied forces. The Germans got the blame and hence summary execution of innocent people.

A common tactic by deniers is to find isolated examples, such as the shooting of SS guards at Dachau, and then suggest such practices are widespread. It is part of their self deception and ignorance of evidencing.

I can quantify where there is evidence of torture or coercion and where there is not. There is none for all the SS camp staff trials in West and Unified Germany, which makes up the majority of the staff and trials.

None for ALL the SS camp Staff? You originally said there was NO ONE tortured, but you seem to be backtracking from your original statement?

Rudolf Höss, Commandant of Auschwitz was tortured quite brutally, and especially around giving a testimony and giving admitted fake numbers.

Josef Kramer, Commandant of Bergen-Belsen was also tortured and the British did prolonged questioning under intimidating conditions, including sleep deprivation and threats.

"He was arrested by soldiers who had just seen the horrors of Belsen, and it is not surprising that his treatment was not gentle" (Phillips, The Belsen Trial, p. 156).

Otto Moll, Auschwitz Crematoria Overseer is someone you'd like, he is the one who gave us detailed accounts of mass executions and cremations... if only it wasn't done under torture... Defense witnesses and some post-trial accounts suggest that Moll was subjected to physical abuse, including beatings, by American interrogators eager to secure incriminating testimony against higher-ranking SS officials.

One defense witness, SS-Unterscharführer Hans Koch (another Auschwitz defendant), testified on November 27, 1945, about the general treatment of SS prisoners by American interrogators. Koch stated:
"We were taken to a room, and the Americans shouted at us. Some of us were hit if we didn’t answer quickly. They wanted us to say things about the others, and I saw Moll after one session—he looked bad, like he’d been roughed up." (Transcript summary, cited in The Dachau Trials: A Summary, U.S. Army Historical Division, 1947, p. 87).

The defense of Moll literally argued it was obtained under duress. U.S. defense attorney Lt. Col. Douglas Bates, who represented multiple defendants, including Moll, made a general statement in his closing argument about interrogation tactics:
"The statements of these men were taken under conditions that cast doubt on their voluntariness. They were held in isolation, questioned for hours, and some reported physical handling by interrogators eager to build a case against the SS leadership." (Trial of Martin Gottfried Weiss et al., Closing Arguments, December 10, 1945, p. 312)

Friedrich Hartjenstein, Commandant of Auschwitz and Natzweiler-Struthof, during his interrogations, Hartjenstein faced intense pressure to confess to specific crimes, including the use of gas chambers at Natzweiler. French authorities, who took custody of him later, documented complaints from Hartjenstein that he had been mistreated by Allied forces, including threats to his family’s safety if he did not comply.

"The accused was questioned repeatedly over days, with little rest, and under the threat of severe consequences if he did not provide the details the interrogators demanded. He was told to confirm the gassing narrative, whether true in its entirety or not." (WO 235/162, June 1, 1946, p. 47).


"I [Hartjenstein] was mistreated by the Allies after my arrest. They threatened me and my family if I did not say what they wanted about the camp. I was forced to speak of things I did not do." (French Military Archives, SHD 11 P 123, translated summary).


Kurt Franz, Deputy Commandant of Treblinka was tried in the Treblinka Trials and sentenced to life imprisonment. While his trial occurred much later and under civilian German jurisdiction, Franz claimed during interrogations that earlier statements he made to Allied forces in 1945 were coerced. After his initial capture by American troops, Franz alleged he was subjected to beatings and starvation to force admissions about Treblinka’s operations.

"When the Americans caught me in ’45, they beat me and kept me without food for days. I said things then that they wanted to hear, but I don’t stand by them now—they weren’t true." (Quoted in The Treblinka Trials, ed. Adalbert Rückerl, 1977, p. 89, translated from German).


During the Treblinka Trial, Franz’s defense counsel, Alfred Schönebeck, raised the issue of his 1945 treatment to challenge the prosecution’s use of earlier statements. In a session on February 15, 1965, Schönebeck argued:
"My client was subjected to harsh conditions by American interrogators after his arrest in 1945. He claims he was struck repeatedly and denied food, forcing him to make statements under duress. These should not be admissible here." (Trial Transcript, Düsseldorf, 8 Ks 2/64, p. 412).

Josef Oberhauser was an SS-Unterscharführer at Belzec "extermination" camp. Oberhauser claimed during pretrial interrogations that his 1945 statements to U.S. forces were coerced. In a 1963 deposition, he told investigators:

"The Americans hit me and kept me in a cell with no food for two days until I talked about Belzec. I said what they wanted because I was afraid." (Cited in The Belzec Trial, Justiz und NS-Verbrechen, Vol. 19, 1978, p. 123, translated from German).

Wilhelm Boger was an SS-Oberscharführer at Auschwitz and was tried in the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trials, In a hearing on March 10, 1963, Boger claimed:
"The Americans beat me senseless in ’45—broke my jaw and starved me for days. I wrote that confession to stop the pain, not because it was true." (Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial Transcripts, Hessian State Archives, 4 Ks 2/63, Vol. 23, p. 187).

Oskar Gröning was an SS-Unterscharführer at Auschwitz, was convicted in 2015 in Lüneburg as an accessory to 300,000 murders. In a 2005 interview with Der Spiegel (republished during the trial), he recalled:

"The British kicked me around and threatened to hang me if I didn’t talk about the camp. I said what I knew to avoid worse." (Der Spiegel, January 15, 2005, p. 56).

Karl Frenzel was at the Sobibor Trial and was an SS-Oberscharführer at Sobibor, he told West German investigators:
"The Americans beat me with a rifle butt and withheld food until I signed a paper about Sobibor. I was too weak to resist." (Cited in Sobibor: A History of a Nazi Death Camp, Jules Schelvis, 2007, p. 234).

You have little evidence for your beliefs and for your ability to quantify, but given statements from the British and Americans themselves, torture was much more common than YOU believe.

Paperclip Conspiracy by Tom Bower (1987), which cites CIC veteran John Hobbins:
"We weren’t gentle with the SS boys—slaps, kicks, no sleep, little food. If they were from a death camp, we made sure they talked, one way or another." (Bower, p. 67).

The examples above are documented cases of coercion, beatings, starvation, and threats, primarily from initial Allied interrogations (1945–1947). Your overlooking, and just blatantly false statement that "There is none for all the SS camp staff trials in West" and "There is no evidence of torture or coercion, of the SS death camp staff put on trial in West and later unified Germany" is such an insane statement to make.

WW2History wrote: ↑Fri Mar 21, 2025 6:07 am Rudolf Höss, Commandant of Auschwitz was tortured quite brutally, and especially around giving a testimony and giving admitted fake numbers.

It was worse than that, his son in the Wehrmacht post war and wife were held in custody; they threatened to kill him and throw her to the Russian Army. This is the integrity of the British armed forces, or at least some of them in those dark times. Psychological torture is worse than physical beatings.

WW2History wrote: ↑Fri Mar 21, 2025 6:07 am

I can quantify where there is evidence of torture or coercion and where there is not. There is none for all the SS camp staff trials in West and Unified Germany, which makes up the majority of the staff and trials.

None for ALL the SS camp Staff? You originally said there was NO ONE tortured, but you seem to be backtracking from your original statement?

I accept that there is evidence of torture and coercion for SS camp staff who were interrogated by Allied military investigators.

There is no evidence of torture of the SS camp staff who were subject to West German or unified German investigations and trials.

Rudolf Höss, Commandant of Auschwitz was tortured quite brutally, and especially around giving a testimony and giving admitted fake numbers.

Josef Kramer, Commandant of Bergen-Belsen was also tortured and the British did prolonged questioning under intimidating conditions, including sleep deprivation and threats.

"He was arrested by soldiers who had just seen the horrors of Belsen, and it is not surprising that his treatment was not gentle" (Phillips, The Belsen Trial, p. 156).

Otto Moll, Auschwitz Crematoria Overseer is someone you'd like, he is the one who gave us detailed accounts of mass executions and cremations... if only it wasn't done under torture... Defense witnesses and some post-trial accounts suggest that Moll was subjected to physical abuse, including beatings, by American interrogators eager to secure incriminating testimony against higher-ranking SS officials.

One defense witness, SS-Unterscharführer Hans Koch (another Auschwitz defendant), testified on November 27, 1945, about the general treatment of SS prisoners by American interrogators. Koch stated:
"We were taken to a room, and the Americans shouted at us. Some of us were hit if we didn’t answer quickly. They wanted us to say things about the others, and I saw Moll after one session—he looked bad, like he’d been roughed up." (Transcript summary, cited in The Dachau Trials: A Summary, U.S. Army Historical Division, 1947, p. 87).

The defense of Moll literally argued it was obtained under duress. U.S. defense attorney Lt. Col. Douglas Bates, who represented multiple defendants, including Moll, made a general statement in his closing argument about interrogation tactics:
"The statements of these men were taken under conditions that cast doubt on their voluntariness. They were held in isolation, questioned for hours, and some reported physical handling by interrogators eager to build a case against the SS leadership." (Trial of Martin Gottfried Weiss et al., Closing Arguments, December 10, 1945, p. 312)

Friedrich Hartjenstein, Commandant of Auschwitz and Natzweiler-Struthof, during his interrogations, Hartjenstein faced intense pressure to confess to specific crimes, including the use of gas chambers at Natzweiler. French authorities, who took custody of him later, documented complaints from Hartjenstein that he had been mistreated by Allied forces, including threats to his family’s safety if he did not comply.

"The accused was questioned repeatedly over days, with little rest, and under the threat of severe consequences if he did not provide the details the interrogators demanded. He was told to confirm the gassing narrative, whether true in its entirety or not." (WO 235/162, June 1, 1946, p. 47).


"I [Hartjenstein] was mistreated by the Allies after my arrest. They threatened me and my family if I did not say what they wanted about the camp. I was forced to speak of things I did not do." (French Military Archives, SHD 11 P 123, translated summary).


Kurt Franz, Deputy Commandant of Treblinka was tried in the Treblinka Trials and sentenced to life imprisonment. While his trial occurred much later and under civilian German jurisdiction, Franz claimed during interrogations that earlier statements he made to Allied forces in 1945 were coerced. After his initial capture by American troops, Franz alleged he was subjected to beatings and starvation to force admissions about Treblinka’s operations.

"When the Americans caught me in ’45, they beat me and kept me without food for days. I said things then that they wanted to hear, but I don’t stand by them now—they weren’t true." (Quoted in The Treblinka Trials, ed. Adalbert Rückerl, 1977, p. 89, translated from German).


During the Treblinka Trial, Franz’s defense counsel, Alfred Schönebeck, raised the issue of his 1945 treatment to challenge the prosecution’s use of earlier statements. In a session on February 15, 1965, Schönebeck argued:
"My client was subjected to harsh conditions by American interrogators after his arrest in 1945. He claims he was struck repeatedly and denied food, forcing him to make statements under duress. These should not be admissible here." (Trial Transcript, Düsseldorf, 8 Ks 2/64, p. 412).

Josef Oberhauser was an SS-Unterscharführer at Belzec "extermination" camp. Oberhauser claimed during pretrial interrogations that his 1945 statements to U.S. forces were coerced. In a 1963 deposition, he told investigators:

"The Americans hit me and kept me in a cell with no food for two days until I talked about Belzec. I said what they wanted because I was afraid." (Cited in The Belzec Trial, Justiz und NS-Verbrechen, Vol. 19, 1978, p. 123, translated from German).

Wilhelm Boger was an SS-Oberscharführer at Auschwitz and was tried in the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trials, In a hearing on March 10, 1963, Boger claimed:
"The Americans beat me senseless in ’45—broke my jaw and starved me for days. I wrote that confession to stop the pain, not because it was true." (Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial Transcripts, Hessian State Archives, 4 Ks 2/63, Vol. 23, p. 187).

Oskar Gröning was an SS-Unterscharführer at Auschwitz, was convicted in 2015 in Lüneburg as an accessory to 300,000 murders. In a 2005 interview with Der Spiegel (republished during the trial), he recalled:

"The British kicked me around and threatened to hang me if I didn’t talk about the camp. I said what I knew to avoid worse." (Der Spiegel, January 15, 2005, p. 56).

Karl Frenzel was at the Sobibor Trial and was an SS-Oberscharführer at Sobibor, he told West German investigators:
"The Americans beat me with a rifle butt and withheld food until I signed a paper about Sobibor. I was too weak to resist." (Cited in Sobibor: A History of a Nazi Death Camp, Jules Schelvis, 2007, p. 234).

You have little evidence for your beliefs and for your ability to quantify, but given statements from the British and Americans themselves, torture was much more common than YOU believe.

Paperclip Conspiracy by Tom Bower (1987), which cites CIC veteran John Hobbins:
"We weren’t gentle with the SS boys—slaps, kicks, no sleep, little food. If they were from a death camp, we made sure they talked, one way or another." (Bower, p. 67).

The examples above are documented cases of coercion, beatings, starvation, and threats, primarily from initial Allied interrogations (1945–1947). Your overlooking, and just blatantly false statement that "There is none for all the SS camp staff trials in West" and "There is no evidence of torture or coercion, of the SS death camp staff put on trial in West and later unified Germany" is such an insane statement to make.

You have just proved my claim. None of the torture claims were made against West or unified German investigations and prosecutions.

It is important to remember that it had all been 'proven at Nuremberg'

Stubble wrote: ↑Fri Mar 21, 2025 11:29 am It is important to remember that it had all been 'proven at Nuremberg'
...

So why did the West German prosecutors gather evidence from witnesses and even get permission to visit the camp sites in Poland, if the allegations against the camp staff had already been proven?

Could it be that the West German prosecutors did not trust the Allied investigations and wanted to conduct their own, to establish what really happened? Could it be they wanted to give the accused Germans the opportunity to plead their innocence and to find evidence that would prove millions were not murdered?

Ask Frau Koch....

Stubble wrote: ↑Fri Mar 21, 2025 11:51 am Ask Frau Koch....

Or Oskar Groening. It does not matter what country the trail took place in, or the legal system used, or whether there is any evidence of coercion, or when the trial took place, 100% of the SS death camp staff admitted to gas chambers being used.

Because it was all proven at Nuremberg...

Look Nessie, you are playing dumb. You know how this was done and you know the answer to the 'why did it play out this way' question too.

Stubble wrote: ↑Fri Mar 21, 2025 5:01 pm Because it was all proven at Nuremberg...

Look Nessie, you are playing dumb. You know how this was done and you know the answer to the 'why did it play out this way' question too.

That senior Nazis had committed war crimes was proven at Nuremberg. Specific crimes relating to mass murdering Jews were proven at numerous other trials, mostly in West Germany.

I accept that there is evidence of torture and coercion for SS camp staff who were interrogated by Allied military investigators.

Why underplay it so much? Torture of some of the most important commanders of the claimed extermination camps?

There is no evidence of torture of the SS camp staff who were subject to West German or unified German investigations and trials.

Are you considering West Germany anytime after the war ends? If so, then yes they were tortured.

You have just proved my claim. None of the torture claims were made against West or unified German investigations and prosecutions.

You said "NONE OF THE SS CAMP STAFF IN THE WEST " were tortured or under coercion that were put on trial in West Germany. The Treblinka Trials (1964–1965) were conducted by West German authorities, not Allied forces. Franz’s defense explicitly challenged the admissibility of his earlier statements in this West German court, arguing they were tainted by prior coercion.

Your assertion that such claims were absent from West German proceedings is flat-out wrong.

Oberhauser stated in a 1963 deposition: "The Americans hit me and kept me in a cell with no food for two days until I talked about Belzec. I said what they wanted because I was afraid." (Cited in The Belzec Trial, Justiz und NS-Verbrechen, Vol. 19, 1978, p. 123).

The deposition in question was given in 1963, during preparations for the Belzec Trial, which took place in Munich from 1963 to 1965 under West German jurisdiction. Oberhauser’s claim of coercion was made directly to West German investigators.

All follow-up courts as I gave you many examples were held in West Germany. Why the continued dishonesty?

All follow-up courts as I gave you many examples were held in West Germany. Why the continued dishonesty?

Because it damages his position if he makes the concession.