Why Do you Guys Think the Holocaust is Fake?

[borjastick]

This is very simple to me. I lost many family members in the Holocaust. I have talked to Holocaust survivors myself. I have physically visited some of the camps. To say that I have not done research is not even close to realistic. What I have not done is any research on Holocaust denial so that is where you can educate me.

So I assume you were told you lost family members in the holocaust. But how do you know they were actually victims of the Germans in the claimed holocaust? Going to a camp my get your emotions running but it won't do anything to confirm things in reality. Have you found solid proof your ancient rellies were actually gassed or similar?

You talk of being or becoming anti-semitic but for me I became more anti-semitic or specifically anti israel once I realised the holocaust is full of lies and impossible claims in outrageous stories.

Jews are people with a shared history, a distinct culture, religion, and traditions. Maybe there are some things about our culture that are admirable or not, but it's really not a big deal either way.

Not if you come from the ashkenazis who are wandering make believers and late to the party judaism converts. They have no connection to ancient israelites or the twelve tribes of judah.

If you have actual real proof that you lost actual relatives in the holocaust I would like to hear about it, but I somehow doubt it.

[Archie]

This is very simple to me. I lost many family members in the Holocaust. I have talked to Holocaust survivors myself. I have physically visited some of the camps. To say that I have not done research is not even close to realistic. What I have not done is any research on Holocaust denial so that is where you can educate me.

You are welcome to give your own family history whatever weight you would like in drawing your own conclusion, but please realize that the rest of us have no way to confirm any of that; hence, such anecdotes won't go too far in a debate with unpersuaded parties.

I would expect people to lose contact with many of their relatives during a chaotic time where people may end up in multiple countries. Often people assume that these relatives were killed at Auschwitz etc when this isn't necessarily the case. But again we have no way to debate you about your own family history.

https://ihr.org/journal/v13n1p45_Weber.html

[Callafangers]

This is very simple to me. I lost many family members in the Holocaust. I have talked to Holocaust survivors myself. I have physically visited some of the camps. To say that I have not done research is not even close to realistic. What I have not done is any research on Holocaust denial so that is where you can educate me.

Yes, you have lost family members. Sorry for your loss, but you did not see them enter 'gas chambers'. They were simply lost (as in, you did not find them) -- and if they survived the war, it was within any of dozens of different countries, across millions of square miles / km, and at a time with no Internet and very limited networking resources, where everybody thought everybody was 'gassed' and while others kept quiet in any case so as to maximize anti-German attitudes, reparations, and "justice" post-war.

As long as people remain committed to truth and reason and objectivity, it doesn't matter what their pre-existing beliefs and biases are. Where I draw the line is on personal insults and clearly racist comments like maligning all Jews for doing things.

It is possible that people first come to disbelieve in the Holocaust and then become anti-semitic although that is still unacceptable in my opinion. I'm not sure why people here think the Holocaust was a "hoax" or who perpetuated it or why, but certainly not every single Jew so it's not fair to despise all Jews for the alleged actions of a few.

It's not about "every single Jew". Systems (e.g. governments) are not efficient enough to be able to distinguish the behaviors of every single individual, independently. There is a reason that having certain gang tattoos causes police to treat a person/suspect differently than those not part of a particular gang. Might it be "unfair discrimination" in that this particular individual is an exception to the rule insofar as how those gang members tend to behave? Certainly, yes. But the probability is significant that this person poses a liability, a threat, and so regarding them as the exact same as those outside of that group is dangerous and irresponsible.

Not every Jew is a media mogul, a banker, a warmongering liar, a subversive NGO director, etc. But almost every nation that has developed some disproportionate Jewish power has seen with it policy and economic developments which benefit Jews more, and the nation less. The most relevant example is "Holocaust awareness". Tens of millions of people died in WW2 yet the only figure most people who discuss WW2 in the West are aware of is "6 million". People in general are more aware of the Jewish losses in WW2 than they are that of their own countrymen.

I'm not assuming everybody here is an anti-semite or even is just trolling. That's what I'm here to figure out. I'll give people the benefit of a doubt, and a warning, but if they prove themselves to be acting in bad faith after the warning, I'll cut them off.

Yes, you caught us. Revisionists are all here just 'trolling', engaging in complex debates as a big 'troll', definitely not serious at all. Again, this reeks of a tactic to minimize or deflect from the very evident rational/logical basis of revisionism. One can easily tell 'trolling' is not primarily what happens here. But one might say this in order to minimize recognition of the more serious interpretations which are most damaging to the 'Holocaust' narrative.

I'm not sure what you mean by pro-semitic, but even as somebody who is a Jew, being too pro semitic can be problematic. Jews are people with a shared history, a distinct culture, religion, and traditions. Maybe there are some things about our culture that are admirable or not, but it's really not a big deal either way.

Jews have been ejected from nations hundreds of times throughout history, with the common threads being either (1) parasitic/usurious behavior, or (2) religious reasons. The fact that this has occurred across multiple nations and that the only Jewish explanation for it is some inexplicable 'phenomena of hate' is strongly suggestive of a common pattern in Jewish behavior (perhaps ideologically-motivated) which nations find objectionable, which they often state explicitly as being parasitic/usurious behavior. You can attempt to minimize this (or rather, gaslight) but this interpretation also aligns well with concepts in Jewish ideology such as being a 'chosen' nation and destined to rule the world as a 'light among nations'. Anyone with an hour or two on their hands can also easily verify that many of the most problematic institutions today and historically in the West (e.g. media, who most would agree has a lying problem) have been overwhelmingly Jewish-controlled (CEOs, chairmen, board composition) for the last century. You could say this is mere coincidence but, with Jews as just ~2% of the population in the USA and even less elsewhere, you'll be hard-pressed to pass this off to anyone with the slightest bit of critical thinking capacity. And sorry, I cannot keep my head in the sand, even if it hurts your feelings.

I take fair criticisms at face value initially, and if after responding fairly it is obvious that they are not good faith criticisms, then I just accept that they are broken people or mentally ill and I feel sad for them but just move on.

Yes, we will perhaps end up "feeling sad" for each other then, depending on how this conversation plays out, as your "good faith criticism" is very much undetermined at this point.

[ConfusedJew]

So I assume you were told you lost family members in the holocaust. But how do you know they were actually victims of the Germans in the claimed holocaust? Going to a camp my get your emotions running but it won't do anything to confirm things in reality. Have you found solid proof your ancient rellies were actually gassed or similar?

They are not ancient relatives. They lived and died less than 100 years ago. I was told and there were records of their passing in the traditional Holocaust archives. Yad Vashem, Holocaust Memorial Museum etc.

Some Holocaust survivors are still alive today but there are not so many.

You talk of being or becoming anti-semitic but for me I became more anti-semitic or specifically anti israel once I realised the holocaust is full of lies and impossible claims in outrageous stories.

Jews are people with a shared history, a distinct culture, religion, and traditions. Maybe there are some things about our culture that are admirable or not, but it's really not a big deal either way.

Not if you come from the ashkenazis who are wandering make believers and late to the party judaism converts. They have no connection to ancient israelites or the twelve tribes of judah.

If you have actual real proof that you lost actual relatives in the holocaust I would like to hear about it, but I somehow doubt it.

There is very clear genetic evidence tracing Ashkenazi Jews back to the ancient Israelites and the Levant but I don't want to go there. There has been some genetic drift and dilution over the past 2,000 as one would expect, but the evidence is crystal clear.

You can gather information in the Holocaust archives. Entirely villages were wiped out. I went back and visited a couple of them where Jews used to live and they were destroyed and replaced with Christian Eastern Europeans.

There are plenty of Nazi records that were found even though they destroyed some evidence too. A lot of the archives will built based on the millions of documents from offices and camps that the Allied forces acquired after the war including transport lists, ghetto censuses, camp prisoner registries, and execution reports.

[ConfusedJew]

I would expect people to lose contact with many of their relatives during a chaotic time where people may end up in multiple countries. Often people assume that these relatives were killed at Auschwitz etc when this isn't necessarily the case. But again we have no way to debate you about your own family history.

https://ihr.org/journal/v13n1p45_Weber.html

Many people tragically "disappeared" during World War II but the percent of Ashkenazi Jews that "disappeared" is far and away larger than any other ethnicity or nationality.

[Archie]

I want to get to the crux of the matter as quickly as possible because I don't have the time to spend month studying this debate as I can just speak to people who are knowledgeable about this here and save a ton of time.

I know you've already said you aren't willing to read any books (even a short, readable one like the Dalton book), but you really should consider it.

Most people start with stuff like documentaries, essays, articles, or reading the forum, and that makes perfect sense. But speaking only for myself I felt like books were especially helpful to me in the beginning just because they give you needed context. They give you a bird's-eye view/foundation. This will help guide you vs only doing haphazard online research into disparate topics. That's my two cents.

If you stick to a couple of weeks of casual online research, that will be enough time to scratch the surface. You can get a sense of the debate in that amount of time, but it's not enough imo to absorb the relevant materials (on either side). If you have strong priors on the question as most Jews do, it will most likely take you a long time to get to where you are able to reconsider your beliefs. In my case, as a Gentile who wasn't that invested in Holocaust belief, I spent probably a couple of years casually investigating the topic and after all that I was leaning revisionist but had not entirely made up my mind (and I had relatively little inertia with my beliefs). It then took me a couple of months of pretty intensive research to draw a more confident conclusion. During the "casual investigation" phase, I read probably three or four books. And then in the first couple months of the more intensive phase I read probably four or five more while digging into primary sources along with it.

[Stubble]

People died in ww2. Survivors who lost family members in ww2 have my sympathies.

You have my condolences for your loss.

Something to keep in mind is that people dying does not mean they were murdered in a homicidal gas chamber.

For your consideration, on the Montel Williams show a man shouted down David Cole because his brother had been 'gassed' at Auschwitz.

As that show was airing, a man went to his very alive brother in his New York City apartment (he had recently moved to the us from Russia) and asked him if that was his brother.

These men, who had assumed the other had been 'gassed' at Auschwitz were reunited some 40 years after the fact because of a revisionist.

Not only is this rather heartwarming (who doesn't love a happy ending, and who isn't happy to learn that even just 1 less person died in ww2) but it is statistically significant. What are the odds.

I encourage you to never stop looking for your family members, if only to pay them final respects. I encourage you to look high and low.

I am of the opinion they are currently missing, not murdered by 'evil nazis'.

I would very much like for you to have the closure that you need.

The entire war was a travesty, and, I really do wish events had transpired differently to save the entire world a whole mess of heartache. Ultimately, Churchill and his cronies wanted war.

The murders of ethnic Germans in the Polish Corridor, and the separation of German territories after ww1 cooked the stew that became the second world war. What was Germany supposed to do, just sit quietly? First they tried negotiations with Poland, which were going well until they fell apart, then with England and France, ultimately, there was the Molotov Ribbentrop pact and the rest as they say is history.

Again, you have my sympathies that your family suffered during ww2. Surely I have yours as well, as there are men from my family in a hole in the ground in Europe that never came home.

I aslo encourage you again to in ernest look at the facts and the evidence for and against the events widely known as 'the holocaust' and to live up to your commitment to 'truth and reason'. To ferret out the truth, wherever it may be, and to emerge with a better understanding of 'the shoah'.

Again, if you want to look into the missing persons specifically, choose a cohort and we can do that. We can try to find these missing persons. Hopefully the cohort you choose consists of individuals that have names and birthdays, that would help. Finding Hungarian jews, one of the problems I run into is the lack of these necessary things.

Archie linked me some files from the national archives, and from that I was able to deduce they didn't all go out the chimney at Auschwitz Birkenau as smoke however, so, that's something.

[borjastick]

So I assume you were told you lost family members in the holocaust. But how do you know they were actually victims of the Germans in the claimed holocaust? Going to a camp my get your emotions running but it won't do anything to confirm things in reality. Have you found solid proof your ancient rellies were actually gassed or similar?

They are not ancient relatives. They lived and died less than 100 years ago. I was told and there were records of their passing in the traditional Holocaust archives. Yad Vashem, Holocaust Memorial Museum etc.

Some Holocaust survivors are still alive today but there are not so many.

You talk of being or becoming anti-semitic but for me I became more anti-semitic or specifically anti israel once I realised the holocaust is full of lies and impossible claims in outrageous stories.

Jews are people with a shared history, a distinct culture, religion, and traditions. Maybe there are some things about our culture that are admirable or not, but it's really not a big deal either way.

Not if you come from the ashkenazis who are wandering make believers and late to the party judaism converts. They have no connection to ancient israelites or the twelve tribes of judah.

If you have actual real proof that you lost actual relatives in the holocaust I would like to hear about it, but I somehow doubt it.

There is very clear genetic evidence tracing Ashkenazi Jews back to the ancient Israelites and the Levant but I don't want to go there. There has been some genetic drift and dilution over the past 2,000 as one would expect, but the evidence is crystal clear.

You can gather information in the Holocaust archives. Entirely villages were wiped out. I went back and visited a couple of them where Jews used to live and they were destroyed and replaced with Christian Eastern Europeans.

There are plenty of Nazi records that were found even though they destroyed some evidence too. A lot of the archives will built based on the millions of documents from offices and camps that the Allied forces acquired after the war including transport lists, ghetto censuses, camp prisoner registries, and execution reports.

So you haven't got any proof then...

And no, Ashkenazis are not related to the holy land. Read The Thirteenth Tribe if you want to know the truth about your lot. Written by a jew...

[Stubble]

So I assume you were told you lost family members in the holocaust. But how do you know they were actually victims of the Germans in the claimed holocaust? Going to a camp my get your emotions running but it won't do anything to confirm things in reality. Have you found solid proof your ancient rellies were actually gassed or similar?

They are not ancient relatives. They lived and died less than 100 years ago. I was told and there were records of their passing in the traditional Holocaust archives. Yad Vashem, Holocaust Memorial Museum etc.

Some Holocaust survivors are still alive today but there are not so many.

You talk of being or becoming anti-semitic but for me I became more anti-semitic or specifically anti israel once I realised the holocaust is full of lies and impossible claims in outrageous stories.

Not if you come from the ashkenazis who are wandering make believers and late to the party judaism converts. They have no connection to ancient israelites or the twelve tribes of judah.

If you have actual real proof that you lost actual relatives in the holocaust I would like to hear about it, but I somehow doubt it.

There is very clear genetic evidence tracing Ashkenazi Jews back to the ancient Israelites and the Levant but I don't want to go there. There has been some genetic drift and dilution over the past 2,000 as one would expect, but the evidence is crystal clear.

You can gather information in the Holocaust archives. Entirely villages were wiped out. I went back and visited a couple of them where Jews used to live and they were destroyed and replaced with Christian Eastern Europeans.

There are plenty of Nazi records that were found even though they destroyed some evidence too. A lot of the archives will built based on the millions of documents from offices and camps that the Allied forces acquired after the war including transport lists, ghetto censuses, camp prisoner registries, and execution reports.

So you haven't got any proof then...

And no, Ashkenazis are not related to the holy land. Read The Thirteenth Tribe if you want to know the truth about your lot. Written by a jew...

Ashkenazim are of the racial subset 'levantine negroids', as are the other peoples of the Levant. They have a higher European admixture, but, their DNA indeed reflects a root in the Levant.

[ConfusedJew]

Yes, you have lost family members. Sorry for your loss, but you did not see them enter 'gas chambers'. They were simply lost (as in, you did not find them) -- and if they survived the war, it was within any of dozens of different countries, across millions of square miles / km, and at a time with no Internet and very limited networking resources, where everybody thought everybody was 'gassed' and while others kept quiet in any case so as to maximize anti-German attitudes, reparations, and "justice" post-war.

The gas chamber denial is a separate sub-issue that we can maybe address later.

It's well documented which countries Jews went to after the war. Rarely did siblings and family members reconnect after the war but it did happen and those survivors had many of the same terrible reports as other people.

What is very well documented is that hundreds of thousands of Jews were put into Displaced Person camps in Germany, Austria, and Italy until about 1952. A lot of displaced people went to the US, Palestine, Canada, South America, South Africa, and Australia. Some Jews returned to Eastern European countries like Poland, Hungary, and Romania but then they faced more anti-semitism and even pogroms so many left.

As long as people remain committed to truth and reason and objectivity, it doesn't matter what their pre-existing beliefs and biases are. Where I draw the line is on personal insults and clearly racist comments like maligning all Jews for doing things.

It is possible that people first come to disbelieve in the Holocaust and then become anti-semitic although that is still unacceptable in my opinion. I'm not sure why people here think the Holocaust was a "hoax" or who perpetuated it or why, but certainly not every single Jew so it's not fair to despise all Jews for the alleged actions of a few.

It's not about "every single Jew". Systems (e.g. governments) are not efficient enough to be able to distinguish the behaviors of every single individual, independently. There is a reason that having certain gang tattoos causes police to treat a person/suspect differently than those not part of a particular gang. Might it be "unfair discrimination" in that this particular individual is an exception to the rule insofar as how those gang members tend to behave? Certainly, yes. But the probability is significant that this person poses a liability, a threat, and so regarding them as the exact same as those outside of that group is dangerous and irresponsible.

Not every Jew is a media mogul, a banker, a warmongering liar, a subversive NGO director, etc. But almost every nation that has developed some disproportionate Jewish power has seen with it policy and economic developments which benefit Jews more, and the nation less. The most relevant example is "Holocaust awareness". Tens of millions of people died in WW2 yet the only figure most people who discuss WW2 in the West are aware of is "6 million". People in general are more aware of the Jewish losses in WW2 than they are that of their own countrymen.

Very few Jews are in the media, finance, warmongers, heads of NGOs. You will see the same exact things in any country that has developed a network of media, banks, NGOs. Jews are not necessary for that. People are aware of roughly how many casualties there were in WW2. I don't know why you are so upset that people know about the Jews who died?

I'm not assuming everybody here is an anti-semite or even is just trolling. That's what I'm here to figure out. I'll give people the benefit of a doubt, and a warning, but if they prove themselves to be acting in bad faith after the warning, I'll cut them off.

Yes, you caught us. Revisionists are all here just 'trolling', engaging in complex debates as a big 'troll', definitely not serious at all. Again, this reeks of a tactic to minimize or deflect from the very evident rational/logical basis of revisionism. One can easily tell 'trolling' is not primarily what happens here. But one might say this in order to minimize recognition of the more serious interpretations which are most damaging to the 'Holocaust' narrative.

I'm not sure what you mean by pro-semitic, but even as somebody who is a Jew, being too pro semitic can be problematic. Jews are people with a shared history, a distinct culture, religion, and traditions. Maybe there are some things about our culture that are admirable or not, but it's really not a big deal either way.

Jews have been ejected from nations hundreds of times throughout history, with the common threads being either (1) parasitic/usurious behavior, or (2) religious reasons. The fact that this has occurred across multiple nations and that the only Jewish explanation for it is some inexplicable 'phenomena of hate' is strongly suggestive of a common pattern in Jewish behavior (perhaps ideologically-motivated) which nations find objectionable, which they often state explicitly as being parasitic/usurious behavior. You can attempt to minimize this (or rather, gaslight) but this interpretation also aligns well with concepts in Jewish ideology such as being a 'chosen' nation and destined to rule the world as a 'light among nations'. Anyone with an hour or two on their hands can also easily verify that many of the most problematic institutions today and historically in the West (e.g. media, who most would agree has a lying problem) have been overwhelmingly Jewish-controlled (CEOs, chairmen, board composition) for the last century. You could say this is mere coincidence but, with Jews as just ~2% of the population in the USA and even less elsewhere, you'll be hard-pressed to pass this off to anyone with the slightest bit of critical thinking capacity. And sorry, I cannot keep my head in the sand, even if it hurts your feelings.

It's historically false that Jews have been ejected from nations for hundreds of times throughout history, but even if it were true, who cares? Human nature tends to persecute people who are different from them and scapegoat those who don't deserve it when they don't understand their own problems or know how to deal with it. It's sad, but that's an actual indictment against humanity rather than Jewish civilization. Repeating that false claim, makes me question your accuracy and judgment overall.

I take fair criticisms at face value initially, and if after responding fairly it is obvious that they are not good faith criticisms, then I just accept that they are broken people or mentally ill and I feel sad for them but just move on.

Yes, we will perhaps end up "feeling sad" for each other then, depending on how this conversation plays out, as your "good faith criticism" is very much undetermined at this point.

[ConfusedJew]

So you haven't got any proof then...

And no, Ashkenazis are not related to the holy land. Read The Thirteenth Tribe if you want to know the truth about your lot. Written by a jew...

Genetic evidence is very clear and strong evidence. Ashkenazi Jews are fairly close relatives to contemporary Palestinians. I'm not sure exactly what would consider "proof". The Thirteenth Tribe was disproven by history and genetic factors.

Do you believe every anti-semitic hypothesis you see or do you recognize that at least *some of the time*, anti-semites get things wildly wrong?

[Keen]

I have no problem with debate at all and invite it.

Liar.

ConfusedJew

...I'll inform them that they have lost their privilege...

It's a "privilege" to talk to you?

ConfusedJew

What I have not done is any research on Holocaust denial... Where I draw the line is on personal insults...

Every time you use the phrase "holocaust denier / denial" you are insulting most everyone here, so that is another lie.

ConfusedJew

I'll give people the benefit of a doubt, and a warning, but if they prove themselves to be acting in bad faith after the warning, I'll cut them off.

ConfusedJew

I take fair criticisms at face value initially, and if after responding fairly it is obvious that they are not good faith criticisms, then I just accept that they are broken people or mentally ill

That sounds like what most people here have concluded about you.

[Keen]

CJ:

I can make a new thread, this thread is getting very off track.

I will do some more research on my own now and come back in a new thread to discuss the demographic collapse question.

You keep saying that. We are waiting for this new "demographic collapse question" thread to get started.

What are you waiting for? What are you so afraid of?

[borjastick]

Ashkenazim are of the racial subset 'levantine negroids', as are the other peoples of the Levant. They have a higher European admixture, but, their DNA indeed reflects a root in the Levant.

Produced in some shady research programme in Tel Aviv University no doubt.

Unlike most people here, especially CJ and Nessie, I have read and understood The Thirteenth Tribe and to me it makes a lot of sense that the Ashkenazis might have shagged a few jew traders on their travels but they are definitely not part of the Twelve Tribes of Judah and thus not connected historically with the Holy land. If you don't want to believe that good for you.

As for CJ and his silly comment about me reading and believing every anti-semitic trope and myth that comes along please don't go there because I think you are probably better than that type of comment. You are acting like most arrogant jews who have believed hook line and sinker all the fables and stories that Schlomo and great cousin Rubin told them over dinner. You simply don't seem to have the capacity to think outside the box. I suspect because you know that if and when the holocaust truth is accepted by most, which is coming, the jews will be in a rather large puddle of poo.

[Archie]

See here for a prior discussion of Ashkenazi population genetics and Khazar hypothesis.

https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=60