The CODOH Revisionist Forum

TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 11:11 am

Nessie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 7:30 am
Yet again you have proven that revisionism is not a genuine investigation. You just randomly stop part way through, without following a chronology of events, to find out what took place.

It's amazing how you accuse us of something you don't do yourself.

I can produce an evidenced chronology of what happened to the Jews arrested by the Nazis 1939-45.

This is what Stubble said "Fuck it, babi yar is a fucking hoax too, and so is the bit about the German jews in Riga. At least now I can stop troubling myself with trying to find out what the hell actually happened there. Nothing happened."

He thinks that he does not need to find out what happened, because supposedly nothing happened. But, Jews not being shot, is not nothing happened, end of investigation. A genuine investigation would continue, to establish what did happen and where the Jews of Kiev spent the rest of the war and how many were liberated.

You love to extrapolate what was actually found. Just like Caroline Sturdy Colls, we found the remains of a person, so we found evidence of a mass murder.

I love to evidence what happened, just like when C S-C led a site survey at TII and found cremated remains on the surface of the ground, the remains of a building buried where witnesses stated the gas chambers were located, that matched descriptions of the building's construction and multiple large pits where witnesses had located the mass graves.

HansHill wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:23 pm

TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 11:11 am It's amazing how you accuse us of something you don't do yourself. You love to extrapolate what was actually found. Just like Caroline Sturdy Colls, we found the remains of a person, so we found evidence of a mass murder.

CSC disgraced herself by asserting (to a television audience of boomers and laypeople, nonetheless) that finding a tile = finding a gas chamber. These ideologues are not to be taken seriously.

Bombsaway, FYI i wrote out a large effortpost to your question but my laptop died. I will reply in due course!

You have just disgraced yourself by misrepresenting what happened and what was concluded when the tiles, bricks and concrete were located. A mistake was made by the Dutch archaeologist who excavated the items, that a maker symbol on a tile was the Star of David, which has since been corrected. No mistake was made that the find was in the part of the camp that witnesses had located the gas chambers and that the tiles, bricks and concrete match witness descriptions of how the gas chambers were constructed. When witness and physical evidence matches, they corroborate.

Stubble wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:34 pm Nessie, did you just pick a statement at random out of an obviously tongue in cheek post, honestly pretty insane in content, actually believe it, and quote it as fact?

Typical...

What you said "Fuck it, babi yar is a fucking hoax too, and so is the bit about the German jews in Riga. At least now I can stop troubling myself with trying to find out what the hell actually happened there. Nothing happened." is typical of revisionist so-called investigations. Occasionally, such as Eric Hunt with TII and Majdanek, a revisionist will try to produce a chronological history of a place or event, from start to finish, with an evidenced conclusion. But, most revisionist investigations consist of "nothing happened".

Nessie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 1:32 pm

Stubble wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:34 pm Nessie, did you just pick a statement at random out of an obviously tongue in cheek post, honestly pretty insane in content, actually believe it, and quote it as fact?

Typical...

What you said "Fuck it, babi yar is a fucking hoax too, and so is the bit about the German jews in Riga. At least now I can stop troubling myself with trying to find out what the hell actually happened there. Nothing happened." is typical of revisionist so-called investigations. Occasionally, such as Eric Hunt with TII and Majdanek, a revisionist will try to produce a chronological history of a place or event, from start to finish, with an evidenced conclusion. But, most revisionist investigations consist of "nothing happened".

How come you never quote me talking about masturbation machines or other insanity? No, you just fail to understand sarcasm (obviously) and then, 4 times now, quote me saying this.

Way to completely fucking derail the thread, jackass.

Let's not actually talk about the chronology, let's not debate barbie yawn or anything, no, let's just fucking strawman everyone involved in revisionism by smearing them with an off hand tongue in cheek remark by me.

Well done Nessie, you fucking jackass.

No one even knows what the camp was laid out like, so determining that the tiles found belonged to such and such a thing is complete nonsense.

Since the story was not about Ziklon B, it is not possible to test for Prussian Blue residue on them, and even if it were found, it would not mean that it was a gas chamber, since the delousing chamber in Auschwitz did not kill anyone. The only things that died from gassing in these places were lice and mites.

Based off of the wiki description of babi yar, and balancing it against what could actually occur in reality, I've concluded that 10 people were shot and thrown in the ditch. This was done 4 times. The last group was 3 people. There was a transposition error in the documents and 33 got misrecorded as 33,000.

Some time later, 33 people were exhumed and their bodies were destroyed in a mobile cremation oven over the course of 14 days.

The whole site was then restored as closely as practicable and the luftwaffe was sent to photograph the area and verify a job well done.

Stubble wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 2:50 pm Based off of the wiki description of babi yar, and balancing it against what could actually occur in reality, I've concluded that 10 people were shot and thrown in the ditch. This was done 4 times. The last group was 3 people. There was a transposition error in the documents and 33 got misrecorded as 33,000.

Some time later, 33 people were exhumed and their bodies were destroyed in a mobile cremation oven over the course of 14 days.

The whole site was then restored as closely as practicable and the luftwaffe was sent to photograph the area and verify a job well done.

As if by magic, they left the ravine exactly as they had found it in September 1941. But for some, the plane was too high to reveal anything.

It's not a normal or expected thing for people to willingly lay themselves on stacks of bodies and await their own execution.

Archie's comparison to mass shooters, in public spaces, where the shooter is heavily outnumbered just carries no weight, I don't imagine anything comparable happened with the SS shootings. What if you were in a situation where you became convinced you were about to die and there wasn't anything you could do about it? How would you react? This experience is so removed from our day to day experience, I think it's an act of hubris to say definitively you would react this way or that.

Like, this doesn't make sense either, idk people are complicated

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Titanic

Some, perhaps overwhelmed by it all, made no attempt to escape and stayed in their cabins or congregated in prayer in the third-class dining room.[134] Leading Fireman Charles Hendrickson saw crowds of third-class passengers below decks with their trunks and possessions, as if waiting for someone to direct them.[135] Psychologist Wyn Craig Wade attributes this to "stoic passivity" produced by generations of being told what to do by social superiors.[111] August Wennerström, one of the male steerage passengers to survive, commented later that many of his companions had made no effort to save themselves. He wrote:

Hundreds were in a circle [in the third-class dining saloon] with a preacher in the middle, praying, crying, asking God and Mary to help them. They lay there and yelled, never lifting a hand to help themselves. They had lost their own will power and expected God to do all the work for them.[136]

I suppose as long as they pick up the shovel and lay down the sand and quick lime, then, you know, stick their face in caustic soda, that makes it believable, right? You know, because hopelessness or whatever. When there are between 10,000 and 30,000 people being executed by, let's go with your high end estimate, 1,000 people, although I doubt such numbers were mustered repeatedly, we will just go with it.

Waiting in line for half a week waiting for their turn to go pick up the shovel, and then lay face down in a ditch 'sardine style' waiting to get shot in the head.

After all, wouldn't want to upset the murderous Germans, they might get murdery and do a murder. Oh, wait.

TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 2:57 pm

Stubble wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 2:50 pm Based off of the wiki description of babi yar, and balancing it against what could actually occur in reality, I've concluded that 10 people were shot and thrown in the ditch. This was done 4 times. The last group was 3 people. There was a transposition error in the documents and 33 got misrecorded as 33,000.

Some time later, 33 people were exhumed and their bodies were destroyed in a mobile cremation oven over the course of 14 days.

The whole site was then restored as closely as practicable and the luftwaffe was sent to photograph the area and verify a job well done.

As if by magic, they left the ravine exactly as they had found it in September 1941. But for some, the plane was too high to reveal anything.

Those sneaky Germans, always with their tricks. Low enough for them to check and insure a job well done, but high enough that nobody else could see, because they didn't have the special nazi rose colored glasses for looking back at it.

Stubble wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 3:43 pm I suppose as long as they pick up the shovel and lay down the sand and quick lime, then, you know, stick their face in caustic soda, that makes it believable, right? You know, because hopelessness or whatever. When there are between 10,000 and 30,000 people being executed by, let's go with your high end estimate, 1,000 people, although I doubt such numbers were mustered repeatedly, we will just go with it.

Waiting in line for half a week waiting for their turn to go pick up the shovel, and then lay face down in a ditch 'sardine style' waiting to get shot in the head.

After all, wouldn't want to upset the murderous Germans, they might get murdery and do a murder. Oh, wait.

As an exercise, if you're interested, why don't you lay out exactly what you think I believe about what happened, at Babi Yar and Rumbula. Be specific. Like you think I think the victims dug the graves and were laying down quicklime almost simultaneous with shootings? I'm not sure why you're proceeding down these lines

bombsaway wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 7:29 pm

Before I respond in depth, what is your hypothesis about what really happened based on best interpretation of the evidence and data?

As i wrote previously, I had written a much longer effort post last night but my laptop died. I spent a bit of time re-writing most of my comments but rather than regurgitate everything I lost i felt it better to just post this anyway, to give you a chance to respond, rather than keep waiting for me.

=====

>Jeckeln was wrong, lying or coerced (take your pick) in his confession.
>He claims he was ordered by Himmler in person in Berlin to carry out the massacre on 10/11th November 1941
>The reality is Himmler was in Munich on these dates.

Since you’ve asked my belief, I believe it was the latter, since he was interrogated by the NKVD.

>To compound this, we have a document from merely 9 or 10 days after the non-existent Himmler Order (20th Nov 1941), who’s purpose in Riga is “to handle Jewish labor more systematically, i.e., to deploy the Jews in such a way that their labor is exploited exhaustively for German purposes”
>Orthodoxy must explain how massacred Jews can be expected to work

>>>>Conclusion: we don’t have a direct order to massacre Jews, the logistics and documentary record prove otherwise.

>Eyewitness Selma Anderson (or Selda Šebšelovicz), who is arguably your most important source for this, gives an account which is completely at odds with the Orthodox account
>”About 15,000 Jews were killed in the first wholesale massacre in Riga, in the courtyard of the Qadrat [sic] Rubber Co. factory outside the city, on November 27, 1941”

>Incorrect location
>Incorrect date (3 days?)
>>>>Conclusion: Orthodoxy must account for why the primary eyewitness is getting basic details wrong about this event. Or are we to add the 15,000 casualties to the grand total and count it as the first of three massacres? No of course not: her account doesn’t align simply because she is lying.

>Mattogno HH v39 section 4.3
>This section is a detailed accounting of Jews present in Riga in February 1942, some months after the alleged shootings. In this section he is analysing the Stahlecker Report, along with quoting from another secondary sources (Angrick/Klein) and gives a thorough account as to why these figures are unreliable.
>>>>Conclusion: Orthodoxy’s figures are unreliable

>British newspaper’s non-reporting of the massacres
>This is a complete non-issue, it was alleged in this thread that the The Manchester Guardian failed to report on this massacre October 1942 (almost a full year later) due to being deceived by German propaganda.
>All of this despite the article otherwise documenting “Nazi Savagery”, “Acute Danger”, “herded into labour camps”, reprisals against singular families in isolated instances, evictions, “ghetto overcrowding”, “physical conditions deteriorating”
>"But that’s just one news article and it cannot be relied upon for accuracy or completeness", i hear you saying. Fair enough, but it’s evidently reliable enough for the Jewish Telegrapic Agency to source for its Daily Bulletin, where it documents the hardships of Jews. So which is it?
>>>>Conclusion: The reporting contained above is wholly consistent with the Revisionist account, and any attempt by Orthodoxy to explain away reasons as to the lack of credible reporting on this is cope.

>Sardine method
>The link you provided to prove the sardine method contains another supporting link which appears to be broken: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/2900732 ... ctPage=976 . If you had a full intact version of this link I would appreciate it.
>Not being able to verify this, I only have preliminary observations: This seems to be describing a different event with 1/4 of the killing of the alleged Rumbula killings.
>Therefore this doesn’t seem to address the issue of throughput, which is what Revisionists (and laymen, if they were to ever become aware of this) find so suspect.

>Bodies
>The Orthodox narrative was the the bodies were buried, then in 1944 exhumed and burnt by Einz Grup 1005 B, however we immediately hit a problem. Our friend Jeckeln was again coerced into giving incorrect information, tellings us Blobel was in charge of this operation, however Blobel himself claims to only have operated in Estonia.
>Logistics. We’ve spoken before about the logistics of burning this many bodies (remains, waterlogging, wood requirements, smell etc) so I will not repeat those arguments here, other than to say it’s entirely unfeasible.
>Evidence: Very little! In 1944, a Soviet commission examined 6 alleged execution sites (where over 100,000 bodies were claimed to have been buried) and they found 549, orders of magnitude off what Orthodoxy has promised to us.
>>>>Conclusion: The lack of bodies and remains undermine the Orthodox story even further.

Stubble wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 1:32 am
Look, the Einsatzgruppen were counter insurgency specialists and there were 3,000 of them total in theater. If you think they killed 1.7 million jews, and also did their job

That was their job

HansHill wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 4:37 pm

bombsaway wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 7:29 pm

Before I respond in depth, what is your hypothesis about what really happened based on best interpretation of the evidence and data?

As i wrote previously, I had written a much longer effort post last night but my laptop died. I spent a bit of time re-writing most of my comments but rather than regurgitate everything I lost i felt it better to just post this anyway, to give you a chance to respond, rather than keep waiting for me.

I meant what happened in terms of the actual history, there were no shootings at Rumbula, the work Jews weren't killed (contradicting Bruns testimony) but all resettled, as per that article? Did they even leave the ghetto? Maybe that is also a fabrication.

Or do you have no idea?

bombsaway wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 4:35 pm

Stubble wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 3:43 pm I suppose as long as they pick up the shovel and lay down the sand and quick lime, then, you know, stick their face in caustic soda, that makes it believable, right? You know, because hopelessness or whatever. When there are between 10,000 and 30,000 people being executed by, let's go with your high end estimate, 1,000 people, although I doubt such numbers were mustered repeatedly, we will just go with it.

Waiting in line for half a week waiting for their turn to go pick up the shovel, and then lay face down in a ditch 'sardine style' waiting to get shot in the head.

After all, wouldn't want to upset the murderous Germans, they might get murdery and do a murder. Oh, wait.

As an exercise, if you're interested, why don't you lay out exactly what you think I believe about what happened, at Babi Yar and Rumbula. Be specific. Like you think I think the victims dug the graves and were laying down quicklime almost simultaneous with shootings? I'm not sure why you're proceeding down these lines

I'm still working on getting the tapestry together. I can give you my opinion about barbi yar, but, it's not fully supported by the 'eyewitness' testimony or the documents.

-Babi Yar-

The Ukrainian irregular militia circulated a flyer insulting the jews of Kiev and encouraging them to come out for resettlement.

The mobile shower truck was parked at the top of the ravine and the executioners, armed with pistol, rifle and machine gun hunkered down on the other side of the ravine and waited.

Some jews fled the night prior and some showed up for relocation.

The ones that showed up for relocation (exact number unknown) were told to form up in columns and follow some form of official to the ravine for a quick shower before boarding waiting trucks further up the road for their safety.

They saw the shower truck, were assured the place was picked to provide some privacy, their escorts went to the mouth of the ravine and turned their backs.

The condemned disrobed and clothing was collected.

Then a whistle was blown when all friendly personnel were clear, the executioners leveled weapons from the top of the ravine on one side, and they killed the condemned.

Maybe.

Hard to tell from my house though.

I can tell you there is an absolute lack of, a trench, a mass grave, spent rounds, or any other evidence in that ravine though, and I can tell you that the 'eyewitness' accounts are fucking insane.