"Real" and "Fake" Jews

[Callafangers]

Do you think the Asian Jews are merely those who adopted Judaism similar to the Khazars.? I am of the thought that the real Jews of old times were the Habiru (Abraham, Joseph etc) who certainly did interact negatively with the Egyptians, a major threat. Not sure if the modern version are related to Habiru, though they may call themselves Hebrews. Many scholars believe that the Habiru were the original Hebrews, based on the term's etymological connection to the word "Hebrew".
Who are the Habiru of the Amarna Letters

Regarding the question of Asian Jews, I have honestly not given it much thought. I have seen various theories or explanations as to how Judaism made its way into Asia, perhaps the most interesting of which is that of the Kaifeng Jews in China:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaifeng_Jews

I cannot speak to it much beyond that. I think their relatively small population to overall Judaism, as well as geopolitical distance from the main Jewish power sphere, has kept them largely off my radar. As China's power has grown, I have become more interested, just have not yet looked into it much. I have noted that certain parts of China have a great deal of respect/appreciation for [Western] Jews, with some Chinese libraries having entire sections dedicated to Jewish best practices in finance and the like. There have also been instances of Jews marrying into wealthy/elite Chinese families (and this being seen as extremely positive, among those Chinese families). And of course, there is the role of certain Jews in the early Maoist/Communist era (as the 'usual suspects').

[Nazgul]

Regarding the question of Asian Jews, I have honestly not given it much thought. I have seen various theories or explanations as to how Judaism made its way into Asia, perhaps the most interesting of which is that of the Kaifeng Jews in China:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaifeng_Jews

I cannot speak to it much beyond that. I think their relatively small population to overall Judaism, as well as geopolitical distance from the main Jewish power sphere, has kept them largely off my radar. As China's power has grown, I have become more interested, just have not yet looked into it much. I have noted that certain parts of China have a great deal of respect/appreciation for [Western] Jews, with some Chinese libraries having entire sections dedicated to Jewish best practices in finance and the like. There have also been instances of Jews marrying into wealthy/elite Chinese families (and this being seen as extremely positive, among those Chinese families). And of course, there is the role of certain Jews in the early Maoist/Communist era (as the 'usual suspects').

I find the discourse on modern Jewery interesting, as I do the discussion on the Jew called Yeshua or Jesus, who I consider to be a fabrication. However, that is not my interest. I am interested in who I consider the real jews, the mountain Jews, the Habiru. Far too many similarities in wars and other correlations not to be them. I put many hours into this years ago and posted it in RODOH II, that failing and another computer the material I gathered is lost. There are many semetic people apart from jews, Palestinians being one of them; no doubt the Habiru (Hebrew) in the times of Ramesis were as well. I am unsure if the modern Israelis and others who identify as Jew are in any way related genetically to the Habiru of ancient times. Anyhow, my interest is restoked and Ill go back over that well worn ground of years ago. No doubt I will post it here for critical reflection.

[Callafangers]

I find the discourse on modern Jewery interesting, as I do the discussion on the Jew called Yeshua or Jesus, who I consider to be a fabrication. However, that is not my interest. I am interested in who I consider the real jews, the mountain Jews, the Habiru. Far too many similarities in wars and other correlations not to be them. I put many hours into this years ago and posted it in RODOH II, that failing and another computer the material I gathered is lost. There are many semetic people apart from jews, Palestinians being one of them; no doubt the Habiru (Hebrew) in the times of Ramesis were as well. I am unsure if the modern Israelis and others who identify as Jew are in any way related genetically to the Habiru of ancient times. Anyhow, my interest is restoked and Ill go back over that well worn ground of years ago. No doubt I will post it here for critical reflection.

Regarding Jesus/Christianity, if we would have talked 5-6 years ago, I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you (regarding Jesus as a fabrication). Even throughout my early CODOH forum posts, I frequently drew parallels between the patterns in religion and that of 'Holocaustianity'. It's been a complex path since then but I do now find myself as a Christian. It is strange even saying these words, given how much time I previously spent ridiculing or refuting it. But life can be strange.

I think the first time I heard of the term "Habiru" was from one of your posts, perhaps even on the earlier RODOH (where I was a member briefly before it crashed). I do not recall much of it but am interested in your findings, if you ever get around to locating and sharing it again. No pressure.

[Nazgul]

Regarding Jesus/Christianity, if we would have talked 5-6 years ago, I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you (regarding Jesus as a fabrication). It's been a complex path since then but I do now find myself as a Christian.

Look forward to discussing the Habiru or Apiru who lived in Caanan 9 thousand or so years ago.

[forasanerworld]

I do not think anyone doubts Jews have some Khazarian admixture.

Jews definitely do have some semitic ancestry as well (and some Sardinian ancestry), this has been proven.

"Jews" today are the ideological (and somewhat genetic) descendants of Pharisees of the New Testament era. The "traditions" of these Pharisees refers to the "Oral Torah" which later became the Talmud. Jesus of Nazareth vehemently opposed these "traditions", as did most of the other Jewish groups of the time.

Eventually, many Jews of this period converted to Christianity, or otherwise departed from Judaism. After the destruction of the Second Temple (70 A.D.), the Pharisees felt their Oral Torah traditions were in danger of being lost. Thus, by the 2nd-3rd century A.D., the books which became the Talmud were initially being written. Over time, the only "Jews" that remained were those who are these ideological descendants of the Pharisees, as all Jews today follow the Talmud (there is one in every synagogue, and Jews discuss the Talmud far more than the Torah itself, which is more of a symbolic icon for its "promises" by God). The only "Jews" who are not followers of the Talmud/Pharisees are the Karaites, who are a tiny sect which has been largely rejected by Judaism (and Israel, at least up until very recently). The Karaites are true "Old Testament Jews", following the Torah but rejecting the Talmud.

Overall, Jews are a religious ethnicity with a racial component (given that being born of a Jewish mother automatically entails Jewish-ness, and being of a Jewish father also has significance in terms of status/authority). Blood matters to Jews, but they also do allow converts in rare cases (but they do not proselytize, unlike other religions). Converts become regarded as actually being biologically Jewish, with the assumption they were somehow "lost" at some point in history and have now 'returned'.

"given that being born of a Jewish mother automatically entails Jewish-ness,"

Is that not true only of the rabbinical prriod?

[fireofice]

It's been a complex path since then but I do now find myself as a Christian.

I'm sorry, but the idea of a Christian who believes a Jew rose from the dead because other Jews said so then refusing to believe the holocaust because of the absurdities therein in highly amusing to me.

Nothing personal.

[Callafangers]

"given that being born of a Jewish mother automatically entails Jewish-ness,"

Is that not true only of the rabbinical prriod?

It's definitely still the predominant view among Jews (especially on the orthodox side):

[Callafangers]

I'm sorry, but the idea of a Christian who believes a Jew rose from the dead because other Jews said so then refusing to believe the holocaust because of the absurdities therein in highly amusing to me.

Nothing personal.

No offense taken. Like I said, I would have made the same argument years ago. I argued at-length with people in-person over it (friends-of-friends at a social event(s), a stranger at a gas station, frequently in online forums, etc.). This went on for years. I can explain at-length the scientific basis for doubting it, whether dinosaurs, hundreds of millions of years of evolution, the vastness of astronomy, and so on. Dawkins, Gervais, Hitchens, etc., were my heroes. This was enough for me, for awhile. But yea... I was asking the wrong questions, and I was wrong. The same arrogance I see in rabbis who believe they are entitled to the world is what I also see in atheists who believe their fellow men have solved the universe's puzzles. We might disagree and will probably not find a venue or enough time here to change the other's opinions on any of it. People go through their own journey, it doesn't always make sense. It is what it is.

[Nazgul]

The same arrogance I see in rabbis who believe they are entitled to the world is what I also see in atheists who believe their fellow men have solved the universe's puzzles.

Can you name some atheists who think they have solved the puzzles, any puzzles in particular.? Many atheists like Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Stephen Hawkin, have a great aura of spirituality, a sense of wonder of the Cosmos, and great humility. They all have something in common which as Stephen said: "It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going. "

People go through their own journey, it doesn't always make sense. It is what it is.

How boring would it be if everything made sense.

[Callafangers]

The same arrogance I see in rabbis who believe they are entitled to the world is what I also see in atheists who believe their fellow men have solved the universe's puzzles.

Can you name some atheists who think they have solved the puzzles, any puzzles in particular.? Many atheists like Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Stephen Hawkin, have a great aura of spirituality, a sense of wonder of the Cosmos, and great humility. They all have something in common which as Stephen said: "It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going. "

Trusting in human ability to draw conclusions on any matter of spiritual or supernatural importance, even something as basic as "does God exist?", is a mistaken approach. To believe in the possibility of God as the Creator is to believe in the fallibility of man's own reasoning on these matters and to reserve some humility in light of that. And with that, the possibility of God arrives, and all that is left is a question of which order you will serve in your life.

Atheism will have no serious movements. It will never rally its members to defend a common cause or to build and carry a civilization. It will never guard itself against subversion, never be protected against its enemies who are better organized and more collectively/commonly driven than they are. Whether Muslims, Jews, Christians, or any other group with a collectivist organization, atheists will be at the whim of any of these, unable to coordinate anything for themselves. The reason is simple: atheists are not willing to live, fight, kill, and die for their cause. Christians, Muslims, etc., most certainly are.

To be an atheist is much like to be an individualist: it is collective suicide. It is not sustainable, and never has been. This is the reason religions have developed in every surviving tribe/civilization (and certainly every thriving one), to begin with. It is the reason Jews attack Christianity and every other collective fabric of the societies they target for subversion. An important lecture on the matter:

People go through their own journey, it doesn't always make sense. It is what it is.

How boring would it be if everything made sense.

The truth will not make sense to those who lack the patience, openness, context/perspective, etc., to receive it (this is applicable to all topics; just try explaining Holocaust revisionism to a high school European history teacher). Thus, in seeing someone else go through their journey, that journey might not seem to make sense. It may be that it is, in fact, senseless; or, it may be that the observer lacks, patience, openness, context/perspective, etc. It would take, at the very least, some open dialogue to start to infer which is correct.

[Nazgul]

Trusting in human ability to draw conclusions on any matter of spiritual or supernatural importance, even something as basic as "does God exist?", is a mistaken approach.

In any University philisophy course (101) the second question after epistemology is "the existence of God"; the answer one formulates depends of the conclusion between the rationalist and empiricist debate. Even Dawkins said that in reality he is agnostic as no one can say with 100% certainty the non existence of anything. No one can disprove there is no giant tea pot orbiting the Sun; perhaps they need to look harder. Dawkins said there is a high probability that a deity does not exist.

Atheism will have no serious movements.

This is a political out look not so much a personal choice. People have a choice in our world to believe or disbelieve in a deity; this alone will shape the future, through different thought processes. Within the western culture, exist Churches, Mosques, Synagogues and others; my experience knowing individuals within these communities is that they have a need to preserve a culture, not so much a belief. Often in many cases to preserve the peace, attendance and participation is mere "virtue signalling".

[Hektor]

I do not think anyone doubts Jews have some Khazarian admixture.

These would be the Ashkenazi Jews. Sephardic Jews located around Spain and Portugal, would most likely to be related to the original Habiru who were semites. Some Polynesians consider themselves Jewish as do Asians.

I also appointed that out that while it got the form of an ethnoreligious group with common ancestry, the vast majority of nominal Jews nowadays are probably mostly the descendants of converts from the past couple of centuries. That's why the resemble a mixture of Iberian and Eastern European people with additives in many way. Remarkably prior to World War One plenty of Jewish authors were involved in racial research, something that is nowadays mostly ignored.

E.g. Maurice Fishberg:
https://archive.org/details/jewsstudyof ... 1/mode/2up

[ConfusedJew]

The recent population genetics reportedly suggests that Ashkenazis are part Levantine and part European. The most likely scenario seems to be that a group of mostly male Jews migrated to what is now Italy and married local European women. But after this initial mixture, it seems they were mostly endogamous.

Thank you. This is close enough to the truth that I can tell you are committed to evaluating evidence from different perspectives. The Khazarian Hypothesis is BS and debunked so I appreciate that I will not have to debate with you on a million things that are unnecessary.

[slob]

Please delete if not relevant.

[Wahrheitssucher]

The Jews today are real Jews, not fake Jews.

FALSE. Europeans who claim to be jewish but do not follow judaism and have negligible to zero hebrew DNA, definitely can fairly be called fake ‘semites’.

"The Thirteenth Tribe" was a book written by a Jew named Arthur Koestler in order to reduce antisemitism.

CORRECT. But …Koestler was a fake semite, who didn’t believe or follow judaism and was a rapist.

Fact is, Jews are from the Levant and created original Judaism.

LOGICAL INCOHERENCE. The original people from ancient Judea were ‘jews’. Not the Europeans calling themselves ‘ashkenazis’.
And it was the ancient, nomadic, Hebrew tribes who created judaism. Not the athiest, fake semites from Europe calling themselves ‘ashkenazi jews’.

DNA completely debunks the Khazar theory

FALSE. DNA studies tends to confirm it. There is disagreement. Sites with misinformation and denial by ashkenazi jews does NOT count as refutation but only as examples of blatant confirmation bias.

Jews are a race, not a religion.

WRONG: Although most Ashkenazi Jews who occupy Palestine are athiests, there is a famous case that refutes your statement. It is of a zionist, Ashkenazi jew Oswald Rufeisen who converted to Christianity so was barred from emigrating to the ethno-zionist state occupying Palestinian by the fake semites from Europe who rule it. They barred him PRECISELY BECAUSE he has changed his ‘religion’, so in their view was no longer ‘jewish’. * [see below]
So sorry to be so blunt but you are repeating misinformation and your statements are based in ignorance.

Christianity was created by Jews.

MORE IGNORANCE: Jesus and his followers were Galileans NOT Judeans.
I’ve explained this before. The New Testament scriptures make THAT distinction.
You need to study more, apply some critical thinking and stop ‘believing’.

Jesus was a Jew.
Jesus, being a Jew, had conflicts with other Jews.

WRONG: See above. Jesus was a Galilean Essene.
Being a vegetarian Essene from Galilee he came into conflict with Judeans who made money off of ritual slaughter and BLOOD sacrifices of animals. That is why he drove the money-changers and people selling animals for slaughter out of the temple on the annual blood-sacrifice-orgy of Passover.

Jesus, if he existed, was just as much of a Jew as modern Jews.

Apologies for being so frank, but this is more ignorant and illogical incoherence.

*…the well-known case of Oswald Rufeisen, often referred to as “Brother Daniel.” Despite his Jewish origins, Rufeisen’s conversion to Christianity led to his exclusion under Israel’s Law of Return, thereby illustrating a disjunction between biological and religious definitions of identity.

In 1962, Brother Daniel petitioned the High Court of Justice in Israel to be recognized as Jewish by nationality. Born into a Jewish family in Poland in 1922, Rufeisen was actively involved in the Zionist youth movement during his adolescence and later participated in partisan resistance, during which he helped save numerous Jewish lives under Nazi occupation. While in hiding in a monastery, he converted to Christianity. Following the war, he pursued religious studies and was eventually ordained as a Carmelite monk. In 1958, he immigrated to Israel, seeking to align himself with what he continued to regard as the Jewish national destiny, despite his Christian faith. Rufeisen subsequently applied for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return, maintaining that although he was Catholic by religion, his Jewish nationality remained intact.

The Ministry of the Interior denied his application, prompting Rufeisen to appeal to the High Court. In a four-to-one decision, the Court upheld the rejection, effectively ruling that conversion to Christianity precludes an ethnic Jew from being recognized as a Jew in the legal sense.
https://www.unz.com/article/is-the-khaz ... ith-woods/