Why "the hoax" would necessitate a conspiracy involving hundreds of thousands

[Stubble]

Site returns 'under maintenance'.

These people are historians and not revisionists. Within months after posting the evidence of the transports linked to the camps mentioned on their site, they went off line. They had the dates and all the information which Nessie could have found if he followed the links I posted a few years ago. I merely correlated their research with the Transport Schedules to Treblinka. I also noted there were 300 Jewish Labour Camps in Austria for Hungarian Jews at the time when they were alleged to have been sent for gassing at Birkenau. One camps was confirmed by Peter Lantos.

How do we source a list of these camps? Hungarian jews were transported to similar camps in Austria as outlined in 'Parallel lines'.

There must be extant records some place for these places. These people must have been paid.

It is my opinion that these facilities operated on a framework similar to that of CCA (corrections corporation of America) or wackenhut (another private prison firm), and as such, documentation of occupancy, payment for lodging etc must exist.

New thread started;

https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=355

[SanityCheck]

I also noted there were 300 Jewish Labour Camps in Austria for Hungarian Jews at the time when they were alleged to have been sent for gassing at Birkenau. One camps was confirmed by Peter Lantos.

The Austrian historian Eleonore Lappin-Eppel as well as the Hungarian historian Szabolcs Szita have been researching Hungarian Jews in Austria for quite some time, Szabolcz Szita back to at least 1990.

This article by Eleonore Lappin (as she was then) highlights the main cohorts to consider
https://wwv.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micr ... 203218.pdf

1. Some direct arrests and abductions to prisons from Budapest to Austria immediately after the German occupation of Hungary; 8000 is a number given, but these overlap with non-Jewish Hungarian opposition figures/liberals, some were taken soon to Mauthausen. Not going via Auschwitz.

2. The Strasshof transports to Vienna, numbering 15,000, not going via Auschwitz, scattered around many dozens of 'Wohnlager' and Arbeitslager in the Vienna area primarily, as discussed in a 2015 article by Kinga Frojimovics and Eva Kovacs. Up to 4,000 died according to Randolph Braham, the death registers of the Vienna Jewish community (i.e. privileged mixed-marriages by 1944) records 800 deaths from this group.
http://epa.niif.hu/02400/02460/00013/pd ... 05-736.pdf

3. Transports that had gone from Hungary to Auschwitz then selection, then to Mauthausen, i.e. within the KZ system - 8000 of the 110,000 selected for work at Auschwitz went to KL Mauthausen, from where they might be sent to the sub-camps (Ebensee, Gusen, etc). There were some further evacuation transports from Auschwitz to Mauthausen in January 1945 which included Hungarian Jews alongside other prisoner nationalities.

4. After the end of selections on arrival at Birkenau and the dismantling of the gas chambers, in the wake of the Arrow Cross coup/change of regime, the Hungarians permitted the Germans to take away Hungarian Jews as forced labourers from Budapest; their number ran to 76,000 according to Lappin's article.

These forced labourers were extensively used in constructing field fortifications, which was harsh work, causing extensive mortality - Lappin cites research by Szabolcs Szita on the labour cams in Gau Niederdonau (Lower Danube) indicating a third of the 35,000 Hungarian Jewish forced labourers there died, and that there were typhus outbreaks in Gau Styria triggering executions as a quarantine measure, before retreats in the final weeks sent many more on forced marches which killed yet more of the labour force. Various small-scale massacres took place, including one by a subunit of the 'Wiking' Division.

The use of so many of these forced labourers in constructing field fortifications helps explains the seemingly large number of 'camp sites', since a labour force could be moved according to operational and tactical combat engineering considerations to build new lines. Plus, the Soviet Vienna offensive forced the evacuation of the construction camps along the Austrian border in April 1945.

This pattern is observable also with other systems of Schanzarbeiter digging field fortifications, such as the ZADA civilian labour detachment (Abteilung) system evolved in Army Group Centre in autumn 1943-mid-1944 and recreated in Poland in the battle of the Vistula, also spreading to Army Group North Ukraine before 'Bagration' on 22 June 1944.

There were also semi-mobile subcamp complexes in the Stutthof and Gross-Rosen systems which used Hungarian Jews and Lodz ghetto Jews for construction work, typically housed in barns, which might move, thus creating several 'camp sites' for the exact same labour force.

Significant numbers of the up to 76,000 marched from Budapest to Austria ended up in the Mauthausen complex, it's worth noting that DEGOB does not necessarily identify the labour camps outside the KZ system even when it's obvious from the statement that the survivor was used in this way, e.g. here: http://degob.org/index.php?showjk=1171 - they ended up in the Mauthausen complex, but had been a ZALfJ worker before then, never having gone anywhere near Auschwitz.

This Austrian compilation from 2022 (217pp) incorporates some of the info from the site currently under maintenance
https://www.bda.gv.at/dam/jcr:f9cf741d- ... 022_BF.pdf

It also usefully links to research projects e.g. for the Burgenland with descriptions of the camps for Hungarian Jews
https://www.forschenunderinnern-burgenl ... erskirchen
Note that the compilation identifies all camps - POW camps, foreign worker camps, etc. Also that it identifies some very small camps with only 100-200 workers. It would be a gross mistake to think that '300 camps' automatically translates into 300,000 inmates.

This seems to be a good starting point for further reading - a 544 page book by Lappin-Eppel from 2010, which is available from the publisher as an ebook for the truly committed.
Eleonore Lappin-Eppel, Ungarisch-Jüdische Zwangsarbeiter und Zwangsarbeiterinnen in Österreich 1944/45. Arbeitseinsatz – Todesmärsche – Folgen. (Austria: Forschung und Wissenschaft, Geschichte, Bd. 3.) Wien/Berlin/Münster, Lit 2010

[curioussoul]

I also noted there were 300 Jewish Labour Camps in Austria for Hungarian Jews at the time when they were alleged to have been sent for gassing at Birkenau. One camps was confirmed by Peter Lantos.

The Austrian historian Eleonore Lappin-Eppel as well as the Hungarian historian Szabolcs Szita have been researching Hungarian Jews in Austria for quite some time, Szabolcz Szita back to at least 1990.

This article by Eleonore Lappin (as she was then) highlights the main cohorts to consider
https://wwv.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micr ... 203218.pdf

1. Some direct arrests and abductions to prisons from Budapest to Austria immediately after the German occupation of Hungary; 8000 is a number given, but these overlap with non-Jewish Hungarian opposition figures/liberals, some were taken soon to Mauthausen. Not going via Auschwitz.

2. The Strasshof transports to Vienna, numbering 15,000, not going via Auschwitz, scattered around many dozens of 'Wohnlager' and Arbeitslager in the Vienna area primarily, as discussed in a 2015 article by Kinga Frojimovics and Eva Kovacs. Up to 4,000 died according to Randolph Braham, the death registers of the Vienna Jewish community (i.e. privileged mixed-marriages by 1944) records 800 deaths from this group.
http://epa.niif.hu/02400/02460/00013/pd ... 05-736.pdf

3. Transports that had gone from Hungary to Auschwitz then selection, then to Mauthausen, i.e. within the KZ system - 8000 of the 110,000 selected for work at Auschwitz went to KL Mauthausen, from where they might be sent to the sub-camps (Ebensee, Gusen, etc). There were some further evacuation transports from Auschwitz to Mauthausen in January 1945 which included Hungarian Jews alongside other prisoner nationalities.

4. After the end of selections on arrival at Birkenau and the dismantling of the gas chambers, in the wake of the Arrow Cross coup/change of regime, the Hungarians permitted the Germans to take away Hungarian Jews as forced labourers from Budapest; their number ran to 76,000 according to Lappin's article.

These forced labourers were extensively used in constructing field fortifications, which was harsh work, causing extensive mortality - Lappin cites research by Szabolcs Szita on the labour cams in Gau Niederdonau (Lower Danube) indicating a third of the 35,000 Hungarian Jewish forced labourers there died, and that there were typhus outbreaks in Gau Styria triggering executions as a quarantine measure, before retreats in the final weeks sent many more on forced marches which killed yet more of the labour force. Various small-scale massacres took place, including one by a subunit of the 'Wiking' Division.

The use of so many of these forced labourers in constructing field fortifications helps explains the seemingly large number of 'camp sites', since a labour force could be moved according to operational and tactical combat engineering considerations to build new lines. Plus, the Soviet Vienna offensive forced the evacuation of the construction camps along the Austrian border in April 1945.

This pattern is observable also with other systems of Schanzarbeiter digging field fortifications, such as the ZADA civilian labour detachment (Abteilung) system evolved in Army Group Centre in autumn 1943-mid-1944 and recreated in Poland in the battle of the Vistula, also spreading to Army Group North Ukraine before 'Bagration' on 22 June 1944.

There were also semi-mobile subcamp complexes in the Stutthof and Gross-Rosen systems which used Hungarian Jews and Lodz ghetto Jews for construction work, typically housed in barns, which might move, thus creating several 'camp sites' for the exact same labour force.

Significant numbers of the up to 76,000 marched from Budapest to Austria ended up in the Mauthausen complex, it's worth noting that DEGOB does not necessarily identify the labour camps outside the KZ system even when it's obvious from the statement that the survivor was used in this way, e.g. here: http://degob.org/index.php?showjk=1171 - they ended up in the Mauthausen complex, but had been a ZALfJ worker before then, never having gone anywhere near Auschwitz.

This Austrian compilation from 2022 (217pp) incorporates some of the info from the site currently under maintenance
https://www.bda.gv.at/dam/jcr:f9cf741d- ... 022_BF.pdf

It also usefully links to research projects e.g. for the Burgenland with descriptions of the camps for Hungarian Jews
https://www.forschenunderinnern-burgenl ... erskirchen
Note that the compilation identifies all camps - POW camps, foreign worker camps, etc. Also that it identifies some very small camps with only 100-200 workers. It would be a gross mistake to think that '300 camps' automatically translates into 300,000 inmates.

This seems to be a good starting point for further reading - a 544 page book by Lappin-Eppel from 2010, which is available from the publisher as an ebook for the truly committed.
Eleonore Lappin-Eppel, Ungarisch-Jüdische Zwangsarbeiter und Zwangsarbeiterinnen in Österreich 1944/45. Arbeitseinsatz – Todesmärsche – Folgen. (Austria: Forschung und Wissenschaft, Geschichte, Bd. 3.) Wien/Berlin/Münster, Lit 2010

Yeah, revisionists have been reviewing and commenting on some of these studies for quite some time, noting the seeming incompatibility of transferring Hungarian Jews to labor sites all over the Reich, with the Holocaust hypothesis of them all being gassed and cremated in Birkenau. Revisionists were notably able to demonstrate decades ago, contrary to the orthodox stance at that time, that the Hungarian Jews who at first were allegedly all massacred wholesale, did in fact survive Auschwitz in significant numbers but it is not entirely clear how or when they ended up in such disperate locations.

[SanityCheck]

Yeah, revisionists have been reviewing and commenting on some of these studies for quite some time, noting the seeming incompatibility of transferring Hungarian Jews to labor sites all over the Reich, with the Holocaust hypothesis of them all being gassed and cremated in Birkenau. Revisionists were notably able to demonstrate decades ago, contrary to the orthodox stance at that time, that the Hungarian Jews who at first were allegedly all massacred wholesale, did in fact survive Auschwitz in significant numbers but it is not entirely clear how or when they ended up in such disperate locations.

What 'Holocaust hypothesis'? You're creating a strawman here by ignoring the differences in conventional interpretations and the range of sources. The 'orthodox' side was acknowledging the large-scale selections of Hungarian Jews already in the 1940s and 1950s, well before revisionism even existed.

Wisliceny was pretty clear in his IMT affidavit that 25% of the Hungarian Jewish deportees to Auschwitz were selected for work, which was taken up by Reitlinger, and explained all of the diverse evidence from 1945 onwards that Hungarian Jews from Auschwitz had ended up all over the KZ system.

Contemporary reports may emphasise the killing frenzy but they also acknowledge selections and transfers; the camp underground highlighted the 'depot' (unregistered) prisoners in 1944. Kasztner's IMT affidavit likewise acknowledges selections and how the able bodied were "distributed in various labour camps". The Mordowicz-Rosin report highlighted the lack of tattooing and use of Lager C (BIIc) but underestimated the proportion selected at 10% rather than 25%. They escaped less than two weeks into the action on May 27.

Some subsequent historians have certainly underestimated the proportion selected for work, especially if they work on Hungary or Auschwitz and not on the KZs. But since 2002 with Gerlach/Aly's Das letzte Kapitel, such views are completely untenable.

(Revisionism played no role in this, and was still dealing with the fiasco of Butz's denial of large-scale deportations, coupled with Mattogno miscounting transports, around this time.)

The detailed studies of the KZ system, camp complexes and sub-camp networks which have appeared in the past 30 years, together with other evidence such as the Glaser list noting the issuing of KZ clothing to male Hungarian Jews above the number recorded as registered and tattooed in Auschwitz, all affirm the 25% interpretation already noted by Wisliceny and endorsed by Reitlinger.

One might note that at no time have Hungarian survivors been restrained from discussing their transfer from Auschwitz without having been registered or tattooed; they obviously have highlighted Lager C and other sections used for the 'depot' or as 'transit camps' from 1945 onwards, as is painfully obvious from the 3000 accounts of Auschwitz survivors recorded in 1945 by DEGOB (and the bulk of another 1000 accounts by the Jewish Agency in Bucharest also in 1945).

Nor were other survivors interviewed in 1945 or any time later on restrained from discussing their experiences if marched out of Budapest to Austria.

The historical record - the accounts left by those who experienced the whirlwind of 1944-45 and supporting documents - points to the patterns noted in my previous post, and not to mysterious hiding places for the 300,000+ Hungarian Jews so many other sources say were gassed at Birkenau in May-July 1944.

The tracking of the 200,000 Hungarian Jews subjected to German forced labour in 1944-1945, 110,000 from the Auschwitz deportees, 90,000 from Strasshof and the forced marches to Austria, has been crowd-sourced by the many historians of the KZ complexes and of forced labour in Austria, and the KZ side summed up in two research (footnoted and sourced) encyclopedias from the 2000s in German and English.

So saying 'it is not entirely clear' is obfuscation pure and simple.

[SanityCheck]

Here's an interesting source I had forgotten about, a protocol of a meeting between Kasztner and Becher on July 15, 1944

Let’s have a quick review. When we negotiated with Wisliceny, he said that the Germans were not interested in concentration or full deportation. Contrary to these statements, something else happened: afterwards came concentration, deportation, and further negotiations. It was promised that the fit would be selected and the unfit would be kept on ice until a specific time, depending on the result of the negotiations, until it was established whether these had succeeded or failed. Instead the Auschwitz mill was set to work. From our information, 300,000 Hungarian Jews were its victims.
....
As against this, what happened while our friends abroad were busy working in this direction? The rumours of ongoing deportations and the reactivation of Auschwitz reached them and they probably don’t know if the Germans take the offer seriously and if there’s any point in making an effort in this matter. Meanwhile the planned journey to L[isbon] will only make sense if (1) deportations stop at once; (2) the Auschwitz mill stops running at once; and (3) there are Jewish survivors from Hungary to exchange for the trucks. So we need to know how many deportees survived and can still be reached.

https://www.kasztnerscrime.com/documents/minutes.html
https://www.kasztnerscrime.com/documents/minutes.pdf (Hungarian original with some quotes in German 'werden am Eis gehalten' from the above)

The ongoing reports on deportations sent out of Hungary in May-July 1944 are very clear that the deportations exceeded 400,000, so here's Kasztner using 75% killed, 25% fit being selected in July 1944.

Note that in addition to receiving copies of the Vrba-Wetzler report by this time, the Budapest leadership had already been informed that Auschwitz was a death camp by none other than Oskar Schindler in late 1943.

[Stubble]

That could be a nice way to broach the topic of the 'Exchange Program', but, I don't want to drift this thread as I have a habit of doing.

I will mention that the link you posted reads like a bad dime novel.

I'd also ask for a clarification about Saly Mayer and his jews, but, again, I don't want to drift the thread.

The Hungarian jews have their own thread, and I need to drop back in there and expand it a little, but, I'm not done looking under floorboards, behind cupboards and in attics yet (tally not yet final). I'll get there though. I'm going to find these jews. They are some place, and in my opinion, it isn't a pond behind Krema III.

Of note, 86 of those camps for Hungarian jews in Austria, they were youth camps, for children.

[Nessie]

How did the Hungarian Jews decide, in 1944, who was going to pretend to be killed and who would get to survive?

[Nazgul]

Of note, 86 of those camps for Hungarian jews in Austria, they were youth camps, for children.

That leaves another 214. Some Hungarians went to these for a short while before being sent West.

[Stubble]

How did the Hungarian Jews decide, in 1944, who was going to pretend to be killed and who would get to survive?

Maybe they drew lots and drank hemlock Nessie, you don't know.

Maybe finding them will shed some answers.

[Nessie]

How did the Hungarian Jews decide, in 1944, who was going to pretend to be killed and who would get to survive?

Maybe they drew lots and drank hemlock Nessie, you don't know.

Maybe finding them will shed some answers.

Or, look for evidence. The evidence is that the Hungarian government, despite the Nazi takeover, were able to protect Jews from Budapest, but not Jews from elsewhere in the country. They made up the majority of Jews sent to Birkenau. Those Jews then lived or died depending on the selection procedure. There was no conspiracy to hoax, the Nazis were responsible. Evidence of the naming and registering of Jews has been found, during a renovation, in Budapest.

https://www.motl.org/hungarian-couple-u ... enovating/

Why hide lists of names, in a wall? Why hide evidence, like the buried statements of Auschwitz prisoners? If that was a hoax, it needs the cooperation of those individuals to make up a story, that fits, and then they hide the evidence, which makes no sense.

"Last January, the Hungarian ambassador to the United Nations officially took responsibility for his country’s role in the Holocaust. That statement came only days after the local Jewish community accused Budapest of engaging in Holocaust revisionism.
At the time, the Federation of Hungarian Jewish Communities (Mazsihisz) had been involved in a high-profile dispute with President Viktor Orbán’s administration over incidents it claimed showed a tendency to downplay the role of Hungarians in genocide of their country’s Jewry.
That conflict led to a yearlong boycott of the government’s official 2014 Hungarian Holocaust Memorial Year."

Why does Hungary still admit to its role in the Holocaust, if it was a Soviet hoax? It needs the ambassador to the UN and the country's strongman right wing leader to lie. They have zero reason to do that.

[SanityCheck]

Of note, 86 of those camps for Hungarian jews in Austria, they were youth camps, for children.

How many of them were like this one?

Groß-Enzersdorf. Wien Sachsengang. Zwangsarbeiter. Zwangsarbeiterlager für ungarische Juden, 39 Männer Frauen und Kinder, landwirtschaftliche Arbeiten auf dem Staatsgut. Im Gutshof. KG Oberhausen, 06216. Am Hof. 10. 16,5852, 48,17341. Verzeichnis 1979; Lappin-Eppel 2010. www.geschichtewiki.wien.gv.at/Zwangsarb ... achsengang

"Laut Volksgerichtsakt umfasste das Lager zum Zeitpunkt einer Inspektion durch den jüdischen Lagerarzt 39 Personen (13 Männer, 23 Frauen und 3 Kinder), von denen 38 als arbeitsfähig eingestuft waren."
https://www.geschichtewiki.wien.gv.at/Z ... achsengang

Or this one?

Groß-Enzersdorf. Wien Thavonhof. Zwangsarbeiter. Zwangsarbeiterlager für ungarische Juden, 15 Männer, Frauen und Kinder, landwirtschaftliche Arbeiten auf dem Staatsgut. Direkt am Thavonhof. KG Oberhausen, 06216. Thavonhof. 310, 311, 313/1, 313/2, 313/4, 313/5, 313/6, 314. 16,6001, 48,22587. Verzeichnis 1979; Lappin-Eppel 2010. www.geschichtewiki.wien.gv.at/Zwangsarb ... _Thavonhof

"Die 15 ungarisch-jüdischen Zwangsarbeiterinnen und Zwangsarbeiter (5 Männer, 9 Frauen und 1 Kind), von denen anfangs 14 als "arbeitsfähig" eingestuft waren, wurden bei der "Gutsverwaltung Lobau" (Grundbesitzer Meyerzeth) für landwirtschaftliche Arbeiten und das Ausheben von Panzergräben. Dabei mussten die Lagerinsassen täglich etwa zehn bis zwölf Stunden schwere Arbeit verrichten."
www.geschichtewiki.wien.gv.at/Zwangsarb ... _Thavonhof

The 15,000 Strassshof deportees to Vienna included children and had been nowhere near Auschwitz. Two camps and so far four children.

Good luck with the remaining 84 camps.

[Stubble]

I'm still digging boss.

I'm going to find these missing persons, come hell or high water.

Where I find them is less important to me than knowing their final disposition, factually.

I will know what happened to these persons. I will not stop, I will not falter, I will not give up. I will know.

I get that you are very committed to the position that these persons were murdered, me, not so much. I must know.

[Nazgul]

Those Jews then lived or died depending on the selection procedure.

How do you differentiate those selections from euthanasia selection 14f13 of the decrepit? I will remind you that a ramp Kapo, Pierre Berg mentions the elderly and sick selected but not a vast majority of anyone. It takes medical staff to detect disease just as meat inspectors do in abatoirs.
It is highly likely that fear of the unknown and knowledge of 14f13 bloomed into Nessies and others holocaust.

[Nessie]

Those Jews then lived or died depending on the selection procedure.

How do you differentiate those selections from euthanasia selection 14f13 of the decrepit? I will remind you that a ramp Kapo, Pierre Berg mentions the elderly and sick selected but not a vast majority of anyone. It takes medical staff to detect disease just as meat inspectors do in abatoirs.
It is highly likely that fear of the unknown and knowledge of 14f13 bloomed into Nessies and others holocaust.

Photographs of the selections, witnesses and the documents recording who was selected, prove it was not just the "decrepit" on the transports, who were "euthanised".

[Callafangers]

The Hungarian jews have their own thread, and I need to drop back in there and expand it a little, but, I'm not done looking under floorboards, behind cupboards and in attics yet (tally not yet final). I'll get there though. I'm going to find these jews. They are some place, and in my opinion, it isn't a pond behind Krema III.

This is a strange point to focus on. It's been 80 years, with victorious powers (including Jews) controlling the libraries, books, and bullhorns. The burden of proof is not on revisionists to show "where Jews went" -- any Jews. Every major representative group that has spoon-fed the world 'evidence' of the so-called 'Holocaust' has an outstanding reputation for deceiving the masses. This being the case, it is known that:

- Motive
- Means
- Opportunity
- Behavior patterns

...all point to manipulation of records, freely, by these powers.

Had they some shred of verifiable evidence which could not have been manipulated or fabricated postwar -- anything at all -- we might not be here, debating this topic at all. But they have not. All of their 'evidence' -- all of it -- aligns better with an understanding of postwar manipulation after wartime propaganda and rumor-milling. We repeatedly see that anything testable among their claims shows up empty-handed. This is why the ban the testing. This makes their claims 'unfalsifiable', which is one of the core signs of an unscientific (or deceptive) viewpoint.

Go ahead and search for 'missing Hungarian Jews' but, so that our readers here understand, this is not the benchmark by which to evaluate whether any 'Holocaust happened'. It is misguided for anyone to claim or imply otherwise.