Why "the hoax" would necessitate a conspiracy involving hundreds of thousands

[bombsaway]

Firstly, consider the "resettled" Jews themselves. Even if one concedes significant Jewish deaths due to wartime conditions, disease, or sporadic violence – events which would, in fact, intensify the desire of any survivors to recount their true experiences – and posits that only a few hundred thousand were "resettled" and survived, their collective silence remains profoundly problematic. What became of these communities? Did they not transmit their experiences of resettlement to their children? Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, which removed a significant apparatus of state repression, one would expect a discernible emergence of narratives detailing this resettlement. Yet, such widespread, corroborated testimony from these survivors or their descendants is conspicuously absent. Instead, the historical record is dominated by accounts of systematic persecution and extermination. The maintenance of this "secret" by hundreds of thousands, through generations and across geopolitical shifts, strains credulity.

The German military and administrative apparatus (as well as Hungarian and Italian allies) involved in any such large-scale resettlement, even of a reduced number, would have numbered in the many tens, if not hundreds, of thousands. These individuals would have been direct participants and witnesses. For the "hoax" theory to be viable, their widespread failure to report resettlement, coupled with the numerous confessions to extermination (dismissed by revisionists as coerced), would imply a massive, dual-pronged operation: forcing false narratives while simultaneously suppressing the true one. This coordinated effort of fabrication and suppression would itself involve a substantial number of agents. This applies to Soviet dominated Europe as well as the West.

Furthermore, the resettlement of even a few hundred thousand individuals into occupied Eastern territories would not have occurred unnoticed by local populations. Such a demographic shift would leave traces in local records, economies, and collective memory. The absence of significant, verifiable local accounts of these large Jewish resettlement zones requires an explanation rooted in pervasive and effective suppression by occupying forces and, later, Soviet authorities.

The core of the "hoax" theory rests on an active, extensive conspiracy by Allied and Soviet governments to invent and perpetuate the extermination narrative. This entails the coordinated fabrication of documents, the manipulation of evidence, and the systematic discrediting of any information pointing to resettlement. Such an operation would inherently involve a considerable number of diplomats, intelligence personnel, military officials, and propagandists across multiple nations.

Ultimately, even when adjusting for potential mass deaths outside of a systematic extermination plan and reducing the number of "resettled" survivors, the theory of a "resettlement hoax" still demands an extraordinary number of participants. This includes not only active conspirators involved in fabricating the extermination story but also the millions whose firsthand knowledge of resettlement (the resettled Jews, German personnel, local Eastern European populations) would need to be effectively and enduringly suppressed. The logistical and operational challenges of maintaining such a widespread, multi-generational deception, particularly after the dissolution of major state actors like the Soviet Union, render the hypothesis of a "resettlement hoax" an argument against, rather than for, its plausibility due to the sheer, unmanageable scale of human involvement required.

[AreYouSirius]

Have you read The Holocaust Industry by Norm Finkelstein?

[TlsMS93]

The USSR absorbed millions of people in its annexations. Do you really think that adding around 2 million more would make a difference in a country where it is said that 26 million died in the war?

Most people want to overcome traumas and not remember. Remembering usually involves motivated people, but it is a drop in the ocean, and we would be talking about people in the Soviet system, where Judaism became more repressed and monitored.

We are talking about a vast and sparsely populated territory, and I do not believe that the Germans transferred them to regions with an excellent quality of life. They just wanted them away from where they could cause major problems, which was the General Government.

[bombsaway]

Yah, I would just say for this example imagine you are a Polish Jew who was resettled by the Nazis. The camp you were kept in was horrible, with conditions similar to the ghettos or worse. You survived there for years (1942 to 1944) until the Soviets came and liberated the camp. Instead of going back to your country you are resettled in the USSR, where you find your place among the people, learning Russian though you hold onto your Jewish heritage as most Soviet Jews did. In the 60s and 70s you emigrate to Israel along with hundreds of thousands of other Soviet Jews. The question is do you speak to anybody about what happened to you, the horrors you experienced during the war. Do you tell your children? Do you tell your Israeli friends or gentile friends if you had any. By what power are you compelled not to speak of what happened to you?

Now multiply this experience by a million, or a few hundred thousand, and you may begin to understand why I believe it would have been necessary for there to be explicit pressure being exerted on these people not to speak of what happened to them. Also account for German, Soviet (non-Jewish) witnesses to resettlement, a huge influx of Polish Jews into their population. What compelled them not to speak about those Polish Jews resettled by the Germans (the Polish Jews deported by the Soviets in 1939-41 are accounted for in terms of documentary and witness record, another powerful discrepancy you guys don't grapple with)

[bombsaway]

The USSR absorbed millions of people in its annexations. Do you really think that adding around 2 million more would make a difference in a country where it is said that 26 million died in the war?

Yet those people are (at least in part) accounted for in the witness and documentary record. There is nothing for the Jews in question (resettled and maintained by NS Germany in USSR).

[Callafangers]

A few important points which refute bombsaway's claim of an astronomical conspiracy to simply move some Jews in and after wartime:

1. Logistically, German relocation and Soviet absorption of such populations were feasible, supported by rail capacity data (and Jews requiring fairly minimal cargo space) and minimal personnel needs (some ~15,000 personnel at most required for management of Jewish quarantine sites in the East, most of which personnel would have eventually been called to the front or otherwise inevitably died throughout the course of the war, and others unlikely to admit their role in such operations).
2. Structurally, the Soviet Union’s repressive apparatus, vast territory, and history of information suppression made concealment practical. Persecuting and deporting minorities (often in total secrecy, with special trains even designed for this purpose) was a known and familiar practice of the Soviet Union.
3. Culturally and strategically, Jewish silence and Zionist interests align with a decision not to reveal survivor numbers, as postwar Zionist leaders emphasized victimhood for Israel’s creation, and principles like 'Pikuach Nefesh' encouraged strategic silence (very much like muted responses during historical 'pogroms', though with deceptive leveraging of atrocity narratives now evidently being applied as well). Many Jews were never asked about their particular experiences while centralized Jewish organizations later -- in the 1980s and since -- have shaped the broader narratives through testimony-gathering patterns (and any potential omissions). Moreover, deportees often lacked awareness of even leaving areas like Poland into far Eastern territories due to sealed transports and obscured destinations (note: a growing body of evidence supports there were few or no actual stops at places like Treblinka [e.g. no documentation of arrivals at T-II proper]).
4. Evidentiarily, gaps in German records and 'survivor' accounts are explainable by wartime chaos, deliberate destruction of camp documentation, Soviet control over Eastern archives, and rail transport hand-offs beyond key zones (as acknowledged by Franz Novak at the Eichmann trial) supporting untraced eastward movements.
5. Demographically, Jewish population losses and survivor counts show vast discrepancies that support concealment, with orthodox estimates claiming >6 million deaths against skeptic figures under 1 million (e.g., ~300,000 per studies adjusting for emigration and non-murder losses), postwar survivor estimates of 4.3-5 million alive in 1945 based on later counts of nearly 1 million in 1997-2001 (per data from the organization Amcha), and fluid definitions including millions who fled or avoided German rule, alongside unadjusted factors like emigration and non-murder losses. (see: Holocaust Encyclopedia "Demography" entry).

Factoring in all of the above, and with careful consideration of the postwar power dynamics and overlapping motives, it is more than plausible that the Soviet Union has concealed many thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of Jewish 'survivors' without requiring any "unmanageable conspiracy".

It's important to note that this explanation, though still requiring a degree of speculation, is far better supported than the unscientific claims of exterminationists that Jews have been 'gassed' with Zyklon-B that magically had no reaction with the iron in the walls at Birkenau, and mass graves that hold at most 2-3% (likely closer to 1% or less) of the corpses they claim should necessarily be there.

Oh, and absolutely no fuel records for the largest fuel (wood) consumption event in world history. This is a far more serious logistical bottleneck than anything revisionists have faced.

---

Hannover said it best: "Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message."

[borjastick]

Furthermore, the resettlement of even a few hundred thousand individuals into occupied Eastern territories would not have occurred unnoticed by local populations. Such a demographic shift would leave traces in local records, economies, and collective memory. The absence of significant, verifiable local accounts of these large Jewish resettlement zones requires an explanation rooted in pervasive and effective suppression by occupying forces and, later, Soviet authorities.

Yawn, is it time for my nap already. This line of thought is so dull, so childish and so wrong yet he and they keep trotting it out. Mainly I suspect because they think we'll soon enough accept it as fact. He probably cannot explain why there is light during the day and why it's dark when he goes to bed. Time after time it is explained to him that there is a Sun which is burning and provides heat and light but he won't accept it.

He claims everyone involved in the deportations would talk about it, yapping and clacking away all their lives. Instead he avoids the new books written every year by 90++ year old jews who decide 'it's time I told my story'. He forgets the Russian iron clad grip on people and the lack of connection, communication and the basic requirement to stay alive through the communist post-war fuck up that was Russia and the CCCP.

He ignores the fact that a pre planned 'Hoax' would require all manner of cover-ups and collusion but the holocaust was just a series of real events that were then capitalised on and were misinterpreted by those in the camps in difficult situations and which were then promoted by the jews and the Allies for propaganda reasons. No more. No hoax, no pre-planning, no secrecy or sleight of hand just events that turned into an opportunity and a requirement to paint Germany and Hitler as the worst thing since the Crucifixion where evidence was made up, invented, created and presented. Yet anyone with a brain could and can see right through it. That is why we cannot have open and public debate about it and why the 'jew hater' and 'anti-semite' slurs are thrown about so willingly against anyone who dislikes the lies of the jews and now of course the israeli state.

Please grow up Bombsaway and use your brain, I'm sure you have one if you look hard enough it might just work.

As they said in Alan Bennett's The History Boys 'History, it's just one fucking thing after another'...

[TlsMS93]

There really was a risk of ostracism of Jews giving accounts contrary to the Holocaust narrative as did the German executioners, David Cole has mentioned this a few times.

[bombsaway]

So call this guy Mordecai

Yah, I would just say for this example imagine you are a Polish Jew who was resettled by the Nazis. The camp you were kept in was horrible, with conditions similar to the ghettos or worse. You survived there for years (1942 to 1944) until the Soviets came and liberated the camp. Instead of going back to your country you are resettled in the USSR, where you find your place among the people, learning Russian though you hold onto your Jewish heritage as most Soviet Jews did. In the 60s and 70s possibly you emigrate to Israel along with hundreds of thousands of other Soviet Jews. The question is do you speak to anybody about what happened to you, the horrors you experienced during the war. Do you tell your children? Do you tell your Israeli friends or gentile friends if you had any. By what power are you compelled not to speak of what happened to you?

Now multiply this experience by a million, or a few hundred thousand, and you may begin to understand why I believe it would have been necessary for there to be explicit pressure being exerted on these people not to speak of what happened to them. Also account for German, Soviet (non-Jewish) witnesses to resettlement, a huge influx of Polish Jews into their population. What compelled them not to speak about those Polish Jews resettled by the Germans (the Polish Jews deported by the Soviets in 1939-41 are accounted for in terms of documentary and witness record, another powerful discrepancy you guys don't grapple with)

Is it just an assumption that the hundreds of thousands of Mordecai's (probably more than a million + resettled Jews from other regions) just don't talk about their experiences in resettlement camps in occupied USSR? Or is there some policy that ensures their silence? Walk me through the mechanism.

[bombsaway]

Also see this thread, in which revisionists sought to analogize what apparently happened in Occupied USSR to other places - a self-own

viewtopic.php?p=6355#p6355

Every population transfer in recent history has been accompanied by a wealth of documentary and testimonial evidence, even ones 10-100x smaller than what revisionists believe happened. The - 'there's no reason to expect Jews or anyone would talk' argument is entirely without historical precedent , this is why I say there must have been some kind of mechanism to keep them quiet. But what was that mechanism? Pretend you are Mordechai, a Jew who went through hell in the resettlement camps and has much to say about his experiences, just like Jews who were ghettoized.

[Callafangers]

Also see this thread, in which revisionists sought to analogize what apparently happened in Occupied USSR to other places - a self-own

viewtopic.php?p=6355#p6355

Every population transfer in recent history has been accompanied by a wealth of documentary and testimonial evidence, even ones 10-100x smaller than what revisionists believe happened. The - 'there's no reason to expect Jews or anyone would talk' argument is entirely without historical precedent , this is why I say there must have been some kind of mechanism to keep them quiet. But what was that mechanism? Pretend you are Mordechai, a Jew who went through hell in the resettlement camps and has much to say about his experiences, just like Jews who were ghettoized.

How many population transfers were behind an 'Iron Curtain' with multiple victorious powers answering to no one and converging motives? How many nations you’d compare to had trains specifically designed for moving populations undetected? How many were in nations as deceptive as the Soviet Union, which had a track record of burying inconvenient truths (e.g. Katyn)? This wasn’t just any forced migration; the context here is a total blackout of information in a war-torn region under Soviet grip, unlike smaller transfers in open or scrutinized areas.

You overestimate the need to "keep Jews quiet." Nobody was asking questions for decades postwar. Nobody was writing 'survivor tales.' Basically nothing at all for 30-40 years, by which point most of these survivors had either died or were very young at the time of the events. Many others (if not most) ended up in Israel, where information is much easier to control (and collective interests much easier to manage). Look at how early Israeli policy pushed a unified story of victimhood -- think of institutions like Yad Vashem curating testimonies to fit a broader narrative. Even when testimony started being collected, it’s a handful of centralized Jewish organizations doing the collecting, shaping the entire narrative. There didn’t need to be some grand conspiracy to silence folks; the environment itself -- Soviet censorship for those still in their sphere, isolation in DP camps, or focus on 'rebuilding' in Israel -- meant most voices didn’t get a platform.

You're expecting some wave of Jews to have necessarily arisen that would shout out on a bullhorn their precise travels and destinations along the way. Most Jews had no clue where they were. The Soviets could tell them they were in Poland, in Germany, wherever. They end up on a train, then another, now they're at a DP camp, or on a boat to a faraway land. This was the typical experience for Jews at the end of the war, hence nothing extraordinary felt worth sharing. Speaking as Mordechai, like you asked, I’d say I went through hell in those resettlement camps -- hunger, cold, confusion -- but I didn’t even know where I was half the time. One day it’s barbed wire and guards, the next I’m on a rattling train with no idea if I’m heading to death or freedom. After the war, I just wanted to 'forget', to find family, to survive. Who’s got time to write a memoir when you’re scrounging for bread or stuck in a camp with no one listening? By the time anyone cared to ask, my memory’s faded, or I’m in a place like Israel where the bigger story overshadows my little piece of it.

You’re right that population transfers usually leave a paper trail, even smaller ones. But this isn’t a typical case. The Germans torched countless records on retreat and the Soviets hid or faked records on their own deportations of millions to Siberia (yet, some records for this were still maintained, though only due to the Soviet administration choosing to do so). If there were logs of Jewish resettlement, they could be gone, buried in still-classified Soviet archives, or just never made public because no power wanted that story out. Compare that to something like the Armenian relocations under the Ottomans -- evidence took decades to surface there too, due to political cover-ups. So, while I get your point about historical precedent, the chaos of WWII and the interests of the victors make this a unique black hole for evidence, not proof it didn’t happen.

I’m not saying there’s no need for evidence, just that its absence is more about systemic suppression -- by Germany destroying papers, Soviets hiding truths, Allies and researchers not pushing hard postwar -- than about the event itself. As 'Mordechai', I’d tell you my silence wasn’t because I was forced, but because no one was interested in my WW2 story initially (everyone had their own to worry about), and by the time they were, I was either dead/gone or lost in the noise of the bigger narrative.

[bombsaway]

If you're Mordechai do you tell your children, your wife, etc, about what happened to you?

[Callafangers]

If you're Mordechai do you tell your children, your wife, etc, about what happened to you?

Do you even know what happened to you? Do you draw out a timeline of the exact months or even years? Were you looking out the window (if any) at the signs (if any) as your train rolled into the next location? Did you see a big "Treblinka" sign? Was it memorable, if you did? Did anyone over the next 40 years ask about it?

[bombsaway]

If you're Mordechai do you tell your children, your wife, etc, about what happened to you?

Do you even know what happened to you? Do you draw out a timeline of the exact months or even years? Were you looking out the window (if any) at the signs (if any) as your train rolled into the next location? Did you see a big "Treblinka" sign? Was it memorable, if you did? Did anyone over the next 40 years ask about it?

Yes I would expect them to remember leaving the ghetto and being sent to a resettlement camp or camps staffed by Germans in Russia, being held there for years until liberation by the Soviets.

[Callafangers]

Yes I would expect them to remember leaving the ghetto and being sent to a resettlement camp or camps staffed by Germans in Russia, being held there for years until liberation by the Soviets.

The proportion of Soviet gulag survivor testimonies we have are miniscule. There are only 16 known published/formal memoirs on the gulag system and only a few hundred interviews in total (from academics/organizations seeking out former prisoners). Rounding to 400, that's:

400 / 16000000 = 0.0025% of gulag survivors having actually recorded their experiences (mostly due to academic outreach)

99.9975% of gulag survivors did NOT record their experiences.

Granted, they were suppressed from "speaking out" in the Soviet Union, but so perhaps were Jews who remained there. In any case, the same issue of limited research interest in unique travels and timelines has persisted both for gulag and 'Holocaust' survivors.