Chronology of the Holocaust

[bombsaway]

I believe I have addressed 'genocidal rhetoric' previously. That said, it is my opinion that these inflammatory statements should be read against their mother tongue, to get a clear picture of their meaning, and should also be contextualized.

Inside that framework, you and I interpret these inflammatory statements differently, as it is my opinion that interpreters have been less than kind in their twisting of meaning with wordplay.

Uproot and exterminate are different words for example.

I have no doubts that there were reprisals and decimations. So far as everyone that lived in the Warsaw Ghetto for example being systematically killed, well, I guess I'm going to have to look further at the minutia.

I had always had the the opinion that while there were decimations and reprisals against the partisans in the ghettos, and ghetto fighters that were found were publicly executed along with their harbours and material supporters, that there had been transports of the jews into concentration, or labor camps. I'll grant this was an assumption and if I have a misconception and no one was transported out, then it would appear that I have a blind spot here.

I'm not even at genocidal rhetoric yet, but the reason for clearing the ghettos. These Jews weren't put to work. Why do you think they were moved out? Here's the resettlement order from Himmler, he uses that term exactly

https://www.yadvashem.org/docs/himmler- ... ution.html

I think it's important for you to understand the WHY behind the decision to eliminate the non-employable Polish Jews, speaking from the orthodox perspective.

[Stubble]

I believe I have addressed 'genocidal rhetoric' previously. That said, it is my opinion that these inflammatory statements should be read against their mother tongue, to get a clear picture of their meaning, and should also be contextualized.

Inside that framework, you and I interpret these inflammatory statements differently, as it is my opinion that interpreters have been less than kind in their twisting of meaning with wordplay.

Uproot and exterminate are different words for example.

I have no doubts that there were reprisals and decimations. So far as everyone that lived in the Warsaw Ghetto for example being systematically killed, well, I guess I'm going to have to look further at the minutia.

I had always had the the opinion that while there were decimations and reprisals against the partisans in the ghettos, and ghetto fighters that were found were publicly executed along with their harbours and material supporters, that there had been transports of the jews into concentration, or labor camps. I'll grant this was an assumption and if I have a misconception and no one was transported out, then it would appear that I have a blind spot here.

I'm not even at genocidal rhetoric yet, but the reason for clearing the ghettos. These Jews weren't put to work. Why do you think they were moved out? Here's the resettlement order from Himmler, he uses that term exactly

https://www.yadvashem.org/docs/himmler- ... ution.html

I think it's important for you to understand the WHY behind the decision to eliminate the non-employable Polish Jews, speaking from the orthodox perspective.

Again, perhaps I have a blind spot. I had assumed that the ghetto populations had been put into the stewardship of the concentration and labor camp system, not that these populations absolutely and inexplicably vanished with no trace.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... -in-poland

I don't see 'vanished inexplicably without being transported without leaving a trace' in this article.

I do see treblinka.

Now I need to establish the fate of the jews transported to treblinka, if their line truly ends there than it end there. I must establish that to my satisfaction however, and without sufficient evidence for wholesale mass murder at treblinka in the steam delousing chambers, or the presence of cremains, I have not been able to do that yet.

I can assure you that treblinka is a focus of diligent attention when I can find the time and that I am indeed making and effort to find out what happened there.

[bombsaway]

I don't see 'vanished inexplicably without being transported without leaving a trace' in this article.

I do see treblinka.

Now I need to establish the fate of the jews transported to treblinka, if their line truly ends there than it end there. I must establish that to my satisfaction however, and without sufficient evidence for wholesale mass murder at treblinka in the steam delousing chambers, or the presence of cremains, I have not been able to do that yet.

I can assure you that treblinka is a focus of diligent attention when I can find the time and that I am indeed making and effort to find out what happened there.

You're getting ahead of me , I'm still on the motivations for the mass deportations and possible killing or proposed resettlement. We can move on from this but I want you to be clear on the motivations orthodoxy sees.

[Numar Patru]

I’m leery of using a single timeline. I think you need two timelines for Poland — one starting in September 1939 and including deportations from the newly annexed territories into the Generalgouvernement, crowding in the ghettos, etc.; and another that intersects with the first one once the T4 staff is transferred to Poland. That second timeline goes from July 1941 in the USSR and gassing with vans in Mogilev. Neither of those timelines truly includes Birkenau, which has its own process of development.

We shouldn’t oversimplify. This was a very complicated process with a lot of moving parts.

[Stubble]

I don't see 'vanished inexplicably without being transported without leaving a trace' in this article.

I do see treblinka.

Now I need to establish the fate of the jews transported to treblinka, if their line truly ends there than it end there. I must establish that to my satisfaction however, and without sufficient evidence for wholesale mass murder at treblinka in the steam delousing chambers, or the presence of cremains, I have not been able to do that yet.

I can assure you that treblinka is a focus of diligent attention when I can find the time and that I am indeed making and effort to find out what happened there.

You're getting ahead of me , I'm still on the motivations for the mass deportations and possible killing or proposed resettlement. We can move on from this but I want you to be clear on the motivations orthodoxy sees.

Fair.

I can both see and recognize the 'pinch'. For me, the dire circumstances have never been all together 'unclear'. The 'war misery' not unlike a salve, was spread over the population of Europe's jews, and no doubt in some places was applied more liberally than in others.

It was a very terrible situation to be sure.

[Stubble]

I’m leery of using a single timeline. I think you need two timelines for Poland — one starting in September 1939 and including deportations from the newly annexed territories into the Generalgouvernement, crowding in the ghettos, etc.; and another that intersects with the first one once the T4 staff is transferred to Poland. That second timeline goes from July 1941 in the USSR and gassing with vans in Mogilev. Neither of those timelines truly includes Birkenau, which has its own process of development.

We shouldn’t oversimplify. This was a very complicated process with a lot of moving parts.

Treating the ss and the gg as different entities may help you clarify on the divergence of their policy. We have established that there was animus between the ss and the gg regarding policy according to the orthodox narrative.

[bombsaway]

Fair.

I can both see and recognize the 'pinch'. For me, the dire circumstances have never been all together 'unclear'. The 'war misery' not unlike a salve, was spread over the population of Europe's jews, and no doubt in some places was applied more liberally than in others.

It was a very terrible situation to be sure.

The decision to close down the ghettos is not contested by revisionists. Everywhere, even in occupied USSR, they ceased to exist or were reduced to a shadow of themselves. This was a massive decision and you have to properly grapple with the reasons for that. You can't reduce to dire circumstances, you have to think about why it happened.

[Numar Patru]

I’m leery of using a single timeline. I think you need two timelines for Poland — one starting in September 1939 and including deportations from the newly annexed territories into the Generalgouvernement, crowding in the ghettos, etc.; and another that intersects with the first one once the T4 staff is transferred to Poland. That second timeline goes from July 1941 in the USSR and gassing with vans in Mogilev. Neither of those timelines truly includes Birkenau, which has its own process of development.

We shouldn’t oversimplify. This was a very complicated process with a lot of moving parts.

Treating the ss and the gg as different entities may help you clarify on the divergence of their policy. We have established that there was animus between the ss and the gg regarding policy according to the orthodox narrative.

So the GG under Frank is pressing to have Jews moved out of the GG. Doesn’t matter where. Different subagencies of the SS have different goals. RuSHA, e.g., wants Jews out of the annexed territories contra Frank’s desires. But as you’re probably aware, the matter isn’t put into Heydrich’s hands until July ‘41, by which point there are already mass shootings in the USSR. But even then, as discussed elsewhere, there are turf wars between civilian, military, and SS personnel over labor needs.

Again, complex and a lot of moving parts.

[Archie]

The majority of the direct evidence of mass murders comes from Nazi sources. There is no direct evidence of mass resettlement. There are some Nazi plans for resettlement and suggestions in documents Jews were being resettled, but there is nothing to show large scale resettlement of millions of Jews. Revisionists suggestions that mass murders did not happen are contrary to the Nazis leaving evidence that did happen, and not leaving evidence of resettlement. - Nessie

Here we go with the fake news and untruths by Mrs Nessie and her children.

There were never millions matey that's simply a made up number. Secondly mass resettlement would be something planned for and done in small episodes of large numbers with a structured programme. That was never part of the plan. The plan was to tell the jews they were on thin ice, then tell them they should leave (many did) then expel as many as possible and then to put the few hundred thousand left over to work on concentration/work camps or send them piecemeal into the hinterland during a war. You really should be a lot better than to continually repeat the shit argument that no evidence of mass resettlement has been provided thus they all died in the non existent gas chambers and were magicked away into the air by cremating ten thousand an hour for fifteen days. Really Mrs Nessie you are better than this. Just stop this shit please or fuck off and die, either will do for me. Must be really taxing on you every morning to wake up and think 'how can I be a bigger cunt today than I was yesterday'.

Ok, let’s dial back the abuse of Nessie. Especially stuff like “fuck off and die.”

Btw, on the user profile, there is an option to add the user as a “foe.” When this is done, the user’s posts are no longer displayed.

Archie you are too soft and need to get a grip of cunts like Nessie. This isn't a space for accommodation of shit the likes of which he spews out on an industrial mechanical scale. This is a space for Revisionism and not endless disinformation flows the likes of which we would never have seen on the old original Codoh Forum. Just repeating the same old shit arguments like he does along with his bunch of followers who have a combined fucking IQ of less than 80 isn't going to help anyone.

I'm not dialing anything back. AFAIAC he can fuck off and die anytime he fucking likes.

Well, I have informally polled a handful of members in private over the past year or two and just about everyone told me that they prefer lighter moderation and they want the opposition to participate here. And we have the revisionist board so that revisionists have their own space as well.

There are known issues with Nessie, mostly related to his high-volume, repetitive posting style and his inability/refusal to respond to legitimate counterpoints. I have discussed this at length previously. I lost my patience with him like two years ago. But he keeps to the Debate board and I figure that not everyone has interacted with him, especially newer guys, and I don't want to deprive them of that rite of passage . Frankly, anyone who gets hornswoggled by Nessie's arguments isn't going to make a good revisionist anyway.

[Archie]

I don't get this thread. Bombsaway is trying to do some sort of Socratic method with Stubble and Stubble is indulging him.

I'll check back in on page 20. Will bombsaway have gotten to the punchline by then?

[bombsaway]

I don't get this thread. Bombsaway is trying to do some sort of Socratic method with Stubble and Stubble is indulging him.

I'll check back in on page 20. Will bombsaway have gotten to the punchline by then?

You're probably confused by my approach which is not focused on debate. I wanted to put this in the research thread for that reason but you moved it.

[Stubble]

Fair.

I can both see and recognize the 'pinch'. For me, the dire circumstances have never been all together 'unclear'. The 'war misery' not unlike a salve, was spread over the population of Europe's jews, and no doubt in some places was applied more liberally than in others.

It was a very terrible situation to be sure.

The decision to close down the ghettos is not contested by revisionists. Everywhere, even in occupied USSR, they ceased to exist or were reduced to a shadow of themselves. This was a massive decision and you have to properly grapple with the reasons for that. You can't reduce to dire circumstances, you have to think about why it happened.

I understand that, and from a logistical standpoint it makes sense to consolidate the population. To prevent partisan actions, it makes sense to put this population into the camp system. Where you lose me is 'mass murder is expedient'.

If 'mass murder is expedient' is the driver, why bother the charade of transportation to a 'central murder facility'. What, lack of concrete and no lakes between 'here' and 'there'?

Edit; clarification; yes, I can see the accelerationism according to the orthodox narrative, and while I personally do not ascribe to the notion, I can see the point of view. Perhaps that is a better framing of a response. Yes, I see where you are coming from.

[bombsaway]

I understand that, and from a logistical standpoint it makes sense to consolidate the population. To prevent partisan actions, it makes sense to put this population into the camp system. Where you lose me is 'mass murder is expedient'.

Why camps in Russia as opposed to Poland? There they will be closer to partisans and supplying these people is going to be more of a strain on supply lines.

FTR mass consolidation occurred within the ghetto system already. Warsaw ghetto held like 400k.

A revisionist narrative that might make sense is that a reservation of sorts was set up in occupied USSR, very near to Poland, into which millions of Jews were funneled. Still don't know why it wouldn't be in Poland. Revisionists point out even now that the long term plan was total expulsion past the Urals or to Madagascar, so such reservations were going temporary anyway.

If 'mass murder is expedient' is the driver, why bother the charade of transportation to a 'central murder facility'. What, lack of concrete and no lakes between 'here' and 'there'?

I'm not sure what your concern is here exactly but we can start looking at this aspect now.

I think we've seen so far in the witness testimony and the documents about Holocaust by shooting is that the killings caused issues in terms of discreteness (the Jews had to be deceived to some extent), PR problems for the Nazis (in the Stahlecker report he talks about inciting pogroms without letting out knowledge that the EG were initiating them). In the Bruns testimony he speaks of getting notification that the killings will henceforth be done more discreetly.

We also see in the documents and witness testimony the killings were also difficult for the perpetrators (eg they could only be carried out under the influence of alcohol at times)

The method of killing therefore has to be discrete and it would have to psychologically tolerable for the perpetrators. You can see the discreteness concern laid out in a document like this. Such a document is, in my opinion, evidence of homicidal intent but for now we don't need to concentrate on that aspect, rather the reasons behind this for now hypothetical method of killing

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... html#_doc1

1. To the Reich Commissar for the East

Re: Your report of October 4, 1941 in respect to the Solution of the Jewish Question

With reference to my letter of October 18, 1941, this is to inform you that Oberdienstleiter Brack of the Führer Chancellery has agreed to collaborate in the production of the required shelters and gassing devices. At this time, the envisaged devices are not available in sufficient quantity; they will first have to be manufactured. Since in Brack's opinion, the manufacture of the devices in the Reich will cause much greater difficulties than doing it on the spot, Brack considers it most expedient to send his people to Riga, especially his chemist Dr. Kallmeyer, who will effect all further steps there. Oberdienstleiter Brack points out that the procedure in question is not without danger, so that special protective measures are necessary. In these circumstances, I request that you address yourself to Oberdienstleiter Brack in the Führer Chancellery through your Higher SS and Police Leader and request the dispatch of the chemist Kallmeyer and other assistants. I should inform you that Sturmbannführer Eichmann, the expert for the Jewish Question in the RSHA is entirely in agreement with this process. According to information from Sturmbannführer Eichmann, camps for Jews are to be set up in Riga and Minsk, to which Jews from the Old Reich territory may also come. At this time, Jews are being evacuated out of the Old Reich to Litzmannstadt (Lodz), and also other camps, to then later be used for labour in the east insofar as they are capable of work.

As things now are, there are no objections if the Jews who are not capable of work, are eliminated with the Brackian remedy. In this way, events such as those that, according to a report in front of me, took place on the occasion of the shootings of the Jews in Vilna, and which, considering that the shootings were carried out in public, can hardly be excused, will no longer be possible. On the other hand, those capable of work will be transported for labour in the east. It goes without saying that the male and female Jews capable of work will be kept apart.

I request a report on your further measures.

A follow up point from here is Brack - I think we should turn our attention now to T4 . This is again necessary in understanding the orthodox interpretation of history and the choice of poison gas as the killing method.

[Stubble]

I understand that, and from a logistical standpoint it makes sense to consolidate the population. To prevent partisan actions, it makes sense to put this population into the camp system. Where you lose me is 'mass murder is expedient'.

Why camps in Russia as opposed to Poland? There they will be closer to partisans and supplying these people is going to be more of a strain on supply lines.

FTR mass consolidation occurred within the ghetto system already. Warsaw ghetto held like 400k.

A revisionist narrative that might make sense is that a reservation of sorts was set up in occupied USSR, very near to Poland, into which millions of Jews were funneled. Still don't know why it wouldn't be in Poland. Revisionists point out even now that the long term plan was total expulsion past the Urals or to Madagascar, so such reservations were going temporary anyway.

If 'mass murder is expedient' is the driver, why bother the charade of transportation to a 'central murder facility'. What, lack of concrete and no lakes between 'here' and 'there'?

I'm not sure what your concern is here exactly but we can start looking at this aspect now.

I think we've seen so far in the witness testimony and the documents about Holocaust by shooting is that the killings caused issues in terms of discreteness (the Jews had to be deceived to some extent), PR problems for the Nazis (in the Stahlecker report he talks about inciting pogroms without letting out knowledge that the EG were initiating them). In the Bruns testimony he speaks of getting notification that the killings will henceforth be done more discreetly.

We also see in the documents and witness testimony the killings were also difficult for the perpetrators (eg they could only be carried out under the influence of alcohol at times)

The method of killing therefore has to be discrete and it would have to psychologically tolerable for the perpetrators. You can see the discreteness concern laid out in a document like this. Such a document is, in my opinion, evidence of homicidal intent but for now we don't need to concentrate on that aspect, rather the reasons behind this for now hypothetical method of killing

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... html#_doc1

1. To the Reich Commissar for the East

Re: Your report of October 4, 1941 in respect to the Solution of the Jewish Question

With reference to my letter of October 18, 1941, this is to inform you that Oberdienstleiter Brack of the Führer Chancellery has agreed to collaborate in the production of the required shelters and gassing devices. At this time, the envisaged devices are not available in sufficient quantity; they will first have to be manufactured. Since in Brack's opinion, the manufacture of the devices in the Reich will cause much greater difficulties than doing it on the spot, Brack considers it most expedient to send his people to Riga, especially his chemist Dr. Kallmeyer, who will effect all further steps there. Oberdienstleiter Brack points out that the procedure in question is not without danger, so that special protective measures are necessary. In these circumstances, I request that you address yourself to Oberdienstleiter Brack in the Führer Chancellery through your Higher SS and Police Leader and request the dispatch of the chemist Kallmeyer and other assistants. I should inform you that Sturmbannführer Eichmann, the expert for the Jewish Question in the RSHA is entirely in agreement with this process. According to information from Sturmbannführer Eichmann, camps for Jews are to be set up in Riga and Minsk, to which Jews from the Old Reich territory may also come. At this time, Jews are being evacuated out of the Old Reich to Litzmannstadt (Lodz), and also other camps, to then later be used for labour in the east insofar as they are capable of work.

As things now are, there are no objections if the Jews who are not capable of work, are eliminated with the Brackian remedy. In this way, events such as those that, according to a report in front of me, took place on the occasion of the shootings of the Jews in Vilna, and which, considering that the shootings were carried out in public, can hardly be excused, will no longer be possible. On the other hand, those capable of work will be transported for labour in the east. It goes without saying that the male and female Jews capable of work will be kept apart.

I request a report on your further measures.

A follow up point from here is Brack - I think we should turn our attention now to T4 . This is again necessary in understanding the orthodox interpretation of history and the choice of poison gas as the killing method.

For this, I will require study, this is a point of history with which I am unfamiliar. I can already see that I had some misconceptions about the way events played out before the retreat with concern to the jews.

To be honest, this specifically isn't a point of history to which I have paid a whole lot of attention. There are so many other rabbit trails in so many other directions I have given time to. This specific line is not one that I have followed.

I will investigate this and chew on it for a while.

Suggested reading is welcome.

Edit; this reflects what I thought I remembered.

https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1943-2/ho ... f-ostland/

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ka ... ation-camp

But, apparently I'm missing something.

Again, reading is welcome.

[bombsaway]

To be honest, this specifically isn't a point of history to which I have paid a whole lot of attention. There are so many other rabbit trails in so many other directions I have given time to. This specific line is not one that I have followed.

I will investigate this and chew on it for a while.

Suggested reading is welcome.

The connection to T4 is crucial for Holocaust historians, it's not just about the killing methods. It's a dry run in terms of secrecy and deception employed, that was particularly interesting for me, I don't know if this aspect has been extensively remarked upon. Basically they were doing it to their own citizens so secrecy was a huge concern, even though it was perhaps more justifiable as euthanasia (I don't agree with this but many revisionists do). Revisionist don't question many of the T4 claims, perhaps the poison gas aspect of it, but that's pretty obvious when you look at the record, which we will do


Here's some links about secrecy

https://www.google.com/books/edition/De ... frontcover

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Hi ... frontcover