Stubble wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 12:05 am
I am not here to quibble over numbers either man. Just trying to put facts, near as can be determined 80 years after the fact, in front of my face. That article presents those, there are some facts in the wiki as well, although, in my opinion, the article is more replete.
What prompted this killing? In light of the specific order not to kill jews without expressed permission from Berlin, I find the assertion that this killing was part of a systematic genocide dubious, although I agree some mass killings took place and some of those were unwarranted. Surprisingly there was not an investigation by the Gestapo and there was no justice dispensed. Others, like Koch, were not so ignored.
the specific order not to kill Jews was exclusive to German Jews, not East Jews. This is a whole other element of the story, and one worth digging in. Eventually those German Jews were targeted, that's made clear in the documentary record, but for a time they were spared.
Ultimately the situation is very messy, as real life tends to be. Major disentangling required, as I can tell you've been trying to do, to your credit.
If you want, next we can go through the records about German Jews vs East Jews, there's a lot here.
Let's spend some more time with this tarbaby and see if we can ascertain a timeline of events, up to their resolution in the woods. Let's also try to ascertain a death toll if possible and within reason. I'd also like to explore partisan activities in the area during the prescribed timeframe, explore any extant documentation from jews in the area at the time attesting involvement in such activities (including post war memoirs, any submitted reports from escaped jews etc).
Again, I find the idea of wanton murder as state sanctioned given a documentary trail in the other direction dubious. I suppose I could expound on that thesis, but, I was going to bring that into an accounting further down the timeline where I consider it to be more relevant.
Assuming of course, this exploration is ok with you. I'm not one to impose and if you would honestly like to move on from this already, that's ok. Getting a more concise view of the orthodox narrative would still be worthwhile without exploring these particulars.
Last edited by Stubble on Tue Feb 18, 2025 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
bombsaway wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 12:09 am
In terms of documentary evidence, there's a thousand smoking guns as I see it. The revisionist hypothesis is Jews were being resettled and maintained somewhere at this time, though not in ghettos because they were all closed down. Clearly they were deemed to dangerous to intermingle with the general population, so the only remaining hypothesis is Jews being kept in internment camps of some kind. Yet when these populations depart from ghettos, shootings are the only thing you see happening to them.
There were attempts to destroy SS police documents actually, these attempts are documented. The problem is so many documents were created they weren't unable to do this very successfully. Orthodox sees a difference w documents concerning the extermination facilities, where environment was much more controlled, allowing them cover up the activities better.
Many documents from the Battle of Berlin were destroyed, but these reports of actions were found there. What was so difficult? Look at how long they took. See that these reports are what most substantiate the “Holocaust by bullets.” Without them, almost nothing would be tangible and the genocide would have had to be concentrated in gas chambers. We should be more cautious when dealing with something that happened in the USSR before claiming that there is irrefutable evidence. The unfortunate communists were unable to prove, either through aerial photographs or through clandestine agents, any exhumations or cremations in these hundreds or thousands of locations, which in itself would have been a Herculean task to do.
I do not deny that there were executions, including of children, but I am far from satisfied with the scale and objective within the so-called Final Solution, and Yehuda Bauer agreed with this.
Himmler's order after the murder of the jews from Germany.
So you believe Reich Jews were shot in Riga?
I see no strong evidence they weren't. The evidence that they were is stronger. With new data I suppose it would be possible to be moved from my position, however, with the facts as they stand, my position is that this murder occurred, yes.
bombsaway wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 12:09 am
In terms of documentary evidence, there's a thousand smoking guns as I see it. The revisionist hypothesis is Jews were being resettled and maintained somewhere at this time, though not in ghettos because they were all closed down. Clearly they were deemed to dangerous to intermingle with the general population, so the only remaining hypothesis is Jews being kept in internment camps of some kind. Yet when these populations depart from ghettos, shootings are the only thing you see happening to them.
There were attempts to destroy SS police documents actually, these attempts are documented. The problem is so many documents were created they weren't unable to do this very successfully. Orthodox sees a difference w documents concerning the extermination facilities, where environment was much more controlled, allowing them cover up the activities better.
Many documents from the Battle of Berlin were destroyed, but these reports of actions were found there. What was so difficult? Look at how long they took. See that these reports are what most substantiate the “Holocaust by bullets.” Without them, almost nothing would be tangible and the genocide would have had to be concentrated in gas chambers. We should be more cautious when dealing with something that happened in the USSR before claiming that there is irrefutable evidence. The unfortunate communists were unable to prove, either through aerial photographs or through clandestine agents, any exhumations or cremations in these hundreds or thousands of locations, which in itself would have been a Herculean task to do.
I do not deny that there were executions, including of children, but I am far from satisfied with the scale and objective within the so-called Final Solution, and Yehuda Bauer agreed with this.
What did Yehuda Bauer say? My understanding is again, that the vast majority of Jews residing in the east were killed. There are perhaps a few examples you might find of ghettos being closed down where it's not clear where no evidence exists concerning what happened to the "resettled" Jews, whether actually resettled or killed. With the major ghettos, the evidence is strong that they were killed, the evidence is nil for resettlement in each case. Based on this the policy is established. I'm not sure where you think historians are going wrong here.
Himmler's order after the murder of the jews from Germany.
So you believe Reich Jews were shot in Riga?
I see no strong evidence they weren't. The evidence that they were is stronger. With new data I suppose it would be possible to be moved from my position, however, with the facts as they stand, my position is that this murder occurred, yes.
That suggests many other Jews were also shot on that day, doesn’t it?
I see no strong evidence they weren't. The evidence that they were is stronger. With new data I suppose it would be possible to be moved from my position, however, with the facts as they stand, my position is that this murder occurred, yes.
That suggests many other Jews were also shot on that day, doesn’t it?
It could be argued either way. To develop an opinion, I'd need to be presented with facts, such as they are. From there, I could vet them and try to make an informed determination. Ultimately, even doing so I could be wrong, and given new data, may have to change my position.
I'll say this, it was a day in ww2, people were being shot, in various places, in various places.
What do you know about the controversy surrounding these Reich Jews being shot? Obviously you know further executions were suspended, at least in the immediate future. What else do you know?
Numar Patru wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 1:27 am
What do you know about the controversy surrounding these Reich Jews being shot? Obviously you know further executions were suspended, at least in the immediate future. What else do you know?
Not much. These people, they were not to be mistreated, whatsless shot. Some had served with distinction during the great war etc. These were people who happened to be jewish. They were not a security threat and they were not malcontents.
bombsaway wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 1:06 am
What did Yehuda Bauer say? My understanding is again, that the vast majority of Jews residing in the east were killed. There are perhaps a few examples you might find of ghettos being closed down where it's not clear where no evidence exists concerning what happened to the "resettled" Jews, whether actually resettled or killed. With the major ghettos, the evidence is strong that they were killed, the evidence is nil for resettlement in each case. Based on this the policy is established. I'm not sure where you think historians are going wrong here.
I was wrong about the historian. I meant Arno Mayer.
“Yet, and despite the unparalleled magnitude of Jewish suffering, the extermination of Eastern Jewry never became Barbarossa’s main goal. The struggle for Lebensraum and against Bolshevism was neither a pretext nor an expedient for the murder of Jews. Nor was it a mere smokescreen to disguise the Jewish massacres as reprisals against the partisans. The attack on the Jews was unquestionably intertwined with the attack on Bolshevism from the very beginning. But this does not mean that it was the dominant strain of the hybrid “Judeo-Bolshevism” that Barbarossa targeted for destruction. In fact, the war against the Jews was a graft or a parasite on the Eastern campaign, which always remained its host, even or especially when it became mired in the depths of Russia.
Numar Patru wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 1:27 am
What do you know about the controversy surrounding these Reich Jews being shot? Obviously you know further executions were suspended, at least in the immediate future. What else do you know?
Not much. These people, they were not to be mistreated, whatsless shot. Some had served with distinction during the great war etc. These were people who happened to be jewish. They were not a security threat and they were not malcontents.
There more?
Just the question of why, despite all that, they were shot anyway.
Numar Patru wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 1:27 am
What do you know about the controversy surrounding these Reich Jews being shot? Obviously you know further executions were suspended, at least in the immediate future. What else do you know?
Not much. These people, they were not to be mistreated, whatsless shot. Some had served with distinction during the great war etc. These were people who happened to be jewish. They were not a security threat and they were not malcontents.
There more?
Just the question of why, despite all that, they were shot anyway.
I'll have to dig into it further and pick it apart to find an appropriate answer. Currently, I don't have a good answer for you Numar. Further, I don't know why those responsible were not held to account. Commandant Koch was executed for much less.
There is an inconsistency in it.
Apparently Himmler understood a need to make a clarification, albeit too late. This leads me to form an opinion that the parties responsible were known to be unwarranted in their killing. So far as why it was tolerated, I'll have to dig.
