Is this statement from bombs accurate?

[Stubble]

I don't understand, you mean Jews put to work in occupied USSR?

Yes sir, working on communication lines and rail infrastructure.

I don't know specifically about that but there's evidence of Jews being brought in for work, though this stops at a certain point. I think the last document is around the time mass deportations began from the Polish ghettos.

Ultimately there wasn't much need to bring Jews in, because there were too many native Jews there already. The documents are clear that the Nazis were trying to decrease their reliance on Jewish workers eg

Strauch, 8-10.4.43: "When the civil administration arrived it already found economic enterprises operated by the Wehrmacht aided by Jews. At a time when the Bielorussians wanted to murder the Jews, the Wehrmacht cultivated them. In that way Jews reached key positions and it is difficult today to remove them completely, for then the enterprises are liable to be destroyed, something we cannot allow ourselves. I am of the opinion that we can confidently say that of the 150,000, 130,000 have already disappeared. 22,000 are still alive in the area of the Gebietskommissariat." [Shalom Cholawsky, The Jews of Bielorussia during World War II, Amsterdam, 1998, p.64, citing Protokoll über die Tagung der Gebietskommissare, Hauptabteilungsleiter und Abteilungsleiter des. Generalkommissars in Minsk vom 8.April bis 10.April 1943. YV TR-10/808; also in Erich Haberer, ‘The German police and genocide in Belorussia, 1941-1944. Part I: Police deployment and Nazi genocidal directives’, Journal of Genocide Research, 2001, 3 (1), p.13, citing CSA-Minsk 370/1/1263/126-45].

Strauch again, same document

I would ask you to see to it that the Jew disappears at least where he is superfluous. We do not comprehend that there should be Jewish cleaning ladies, telephone operators, etc.; and also, we do not understand that so many bootblacks are needed. They are superfluous and therefore must disappear. We will manage quite well without Jews. We will reduce their numbers by half without encountering economic difficulties (translation by Haberer here)

https://www.yadvashem.org/untoldstories ... y_Kube.pdf

This document is important because it shows the highest civilian authority in Belarus talking in supportive terms about the killing of Jewish laborers.

"Naturally I and the SD would like it best if Jewry in the Generalbezirk of Belorussia was finally eliminated after their labor is no longer required by the Wehrmacht. "

And also that Polish Jews should not be brought in

I beg the Reichskommissar (already warned by telegram) to prevent the dispatch of such transports, in his capacity as supreme authority in Ostland. The Polish Jew, exactly like the Russian Jew, is an enemy of the German nation. He represents a politically dangerous element, a danger which far exceeds his value as a skilled worker.

So if they're already killing Jewish workers it wouldn't make sense for them to bring in more.

I was interacting with Bombsaway in another thread and I asked about the jews sent east in a support role on operation barbarossa and I was presented with this.

I've never run into what is referenced here and I haven't looked at source to I can't speak to the fidelity of the translation to the original. On a surface inspection and assuming good faith, it doesn't look very good.

I do not like it.

[bombsaway]

The Kube document exists in high quality scans which I've linked to before, but can't find the link. If you look through the archive of the old forum it will be there, though maybe the site got removed, idk.

Basically in the East the killings were higher intensity than in Poland even. As Nick pointed out, almost all the population was killed, even those able to work. This was impeccably documented. Revisionists like Germar Rudolph admit it seems the mainstream interpretation of what happened is correct, more than a million were killed. If you're interested in how the Holocaust started, it's a good place, since the documentation is so profuse.

The documents I showed you, that's just the tip of the iceberg. You can go on and on and there's still more.

The typical denier response is that the numbers are exaggerated, both due to outright forgery (retyping documents with added 0s) or because Nazis wanted to make it seem like they were killing more Jews than they actually were to please their superiors.

[Stubble]

I'm more stuck on the implications than the documents themselves.

I've always assumed a dumping of the jews from Operation Reinhardt into the east. These documents illustrate an animus to that assessment. Perhaps they were dumped and pogromed, but there is about as much evidence for that as there is evidence they were put in rockets and sent to one of the moons of Saturn.

I understand the judenhass, but the language used particularly in your last quote seems rather thinly veiled if at all. It seems to offer a different solution than expulsion to the east.

[bombsaway]

I'm more stuck on the implications than the documents themselves.

I've always assumed a dumping of the jews from Operation Reinhardt into the east. These documents illustrate an animus to that assessment. Perhaps they were dumped and pogromed, but there is about as much evidence for that as there is evidence they were put in rockets and sent to one of the moons of Saturn.

I understand the judenhass, but the language used particularly in your last quite seems rather thinly veiled if at all. It seems to offer a different solution than expulsion to the east.

This is a good point,

The full Kube quote is as follows

After completion of the Aktion against the Jews in Minsk, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Strauch reported to me this night, with justified indignation, that suddenly, without instructions from the Reichsfuehrer, and without notification to the Generalkommissar, a transport of 1,000 Jews from Warsaw has arrived for the local Luftwaffe Command.

I beg the Reichskommissar (already warned by telegram) to prevent the dispatch of such transports, in his capacity as supreme authority in Ostland. The Polish Jew, exactly like the Russian Jew, is an enemy of the German nation. He represents a politically dangerous element, a danger which far exceeds his value as a skilled worker. Under no circumstances should the army or the Luftwaffe import Jews into an area under civil administration, either from the Government-General or from elsewhere, without the approval of the Reichskommissar, as this endangers the entire political task here and the security of the Generalbezirk. I am in full agreement with the Commander of the SD in Byelorussia that we should liquidate every transport of Jews not arranged, or announced to us, by our superior officers, to prevent further disturbances in Byelorussia.

This is July 31. Mass transports through Treblinka/Belzec/Sobibor, to the tune of 10s of thousands per week were about to start.

Kube is demanding express notice for any transport coming in. It doesn't sound like he had any idea about the flood of Polish Jews that was about to come in. And he's not some little guy, but the Governor of Belarus.

Believe it or not, revisionists are not bothered in the slightest by this document.

[Stubble]

I find it irksome.

[HansHill]

No.

Addressed by Lamprecht on the old forum here:

forum.codoh.com/viewtopica5ad.html?p=107580#p107580

I regrettably don't know how to link to the old forum but I have seen others doing so. Perhaps a mod can amend my post to make the above link work for Mr Stubble! In the meantime Mr Stubble, if you have access to the old database you can search for "Kube" and you'll see Lamprecht and others addressing this.

[goyim terror alarm]

No.

Addressed by Lamprecht on the old forum here:

forum.codoh.com/viewtopica5ad.html?p=107580#p107580

I regrettably don't know how to link to the old forum but I have seen others doing so. Perhaps a mod can amend my post to make the above link work for Mr Stubble! In the meantime Mr Stubble, if you have access to the old database you can search for "Kube" and you'll see Lamprecht and others addressing this.

Is this the correct thread?
https://archive.codohforum.com/20230609 ... 80#p107580

[HansHill]

Yes that looks to be it, thanks Goy! That was very impressive

[curioussoul]

What's irksome, exactly? It's been known for decades that local SS leaders and Wehrmacht commanders were tasked with implementing political directives from Berlin that were almost logistically impossible to enforce. Local leaders in the Occupied Eastern Territories were not exactly enthusiastic about receiving, housing and feeding millions of Jews in a region already stretched thin by extremely long supply lines, partisan warfare and combat with Russian forces. Ideological concerns from Berlin often clashed with logistical realities in the East, and political leadership in Germany often took no heed to such realities but forced them through despite obvious impossibilities. This was characteristic of the German/Nazi leadership structure at that time, and is reflected in many similar policy directives such as the mass-evacuation of the Crimean peninsula to make room for Volksdeutsche, an order which prompted local commanders to carry out an evacuation plan for hundreds of thousands of people within mere hours of Hitler's order. What Kube's correspondence indicates is the entire opposite of genocidal intent, as he was essentially threatening that thousands would have to be die because too many were arriving too fast to his region.

Posters like me and Callafangers have been pointing out the probability of Jews being housed in what can only be described as open-air camps similar to those used to house the huge numbers of Soviet PoWs that fell into German hands and could not be housed or fed, and millions of whom died. Witness testimony from a French PoW in Ukraine indicated that huge numbers of Jews from all over Europe were present in one of the major PoW/concentration camps in this region, but countless similar camps are practically unknown to this day because they lacked infrastructure and were essentially just fenced-in enclosures in open fields. Local leaders such as Kube naturally complained of the influx of Jews because he had no means of implementing the Final Solution on-location in Belarus.

There was an entire chapter on this in the MGK response to the plagiarist bloggers at HC. I'll quote some of the pertinent passages below:

It goes without saying that difficult or even dismal conditions with regard to housing, hygiene, health and nourishment in particular areas would have posed great obstacles to the actual settlement of Jews. On the other hand it is clear from documents such as the correspondence between Wilhem Kube and Heinrich Lohse following the unannounced arrival of 1,000 Warsaw Jews in Minsk on 31 July 1942 that the resettlement of the Jews was a priority which overrode the concerns of local administration on such issues, that the deportation program was to be carried out no matter what, and that local authorities were left to deal with the problems resulting from the implementation of the resettlement program as best they could. That the authorities in charge were aware that the resettlement of the Jews under the prevailing conditions would take a considerable toll of lives, especially among the western Jews who were accustomed to modern comforts and to a large extent strangers to hard physical labor, is demonstrated by a letter written on 21 June 1942 by Walter Föhl, who was Head of the Main Department with the Reich Commissariat for the Consolidation of German Nationhood in Cracow. The letter was addressed to an unknown member of the SS. A section of it reads:

“Every day now, we have been receiving trains, each with 1,000 Jews
from Europe, processing them and housing them in one way or another,
and sending them on, right into the swamps of White Ruthenia towards the
Arctic Ocean; that is where they will all find themselves when the war is
over – if they survive (and the Jews from the Kurfürstendamm or from Vienna or Pressburg surely will not) – not without having built a few motorways. (But we should not talk about that.)”

While not demonstrating genocidal intent, as Götz Aly wants to have it, this letter – which is fully in line with the decisions made at the Wannsee conference – reflects the intention to utilize the deported Jews for forced labor without regard for any losses in human life caused by the process or the generally harsh conditions prevailing in the region of resettlement. The propensity among the National Socialist leadership for pushing large-scale resettlement plans without any concern for the resettled or the details of the resettlement itself, while leaving such practicalities to be solved by local military or civilian authorities, is clearly demonstrated also by the above-mentioned aborted plan to deport the population of Crimea. Hitler’s evacuation order was passed in the early morning of 3 July 1942 via the administration department of Army Group South to the 11th Army stationed on Crimea, which was given the sole responsibility for planning, organizing and implementing the deportation of 700,000 people. Incredibly enough, the 11th Army had to draw up a plan for this mass expulsion and determine the destination of the deported within a mere 6 hours. According to the plan signed by Erich von Manstein, the urban population would be transported by train, while 2,000 of the rural population would depart each day on foot over the two narrow tongues of land connecting Crimea to the Ukraine, marching 20 km per day, with every fourth day a rest day. The plan foresaw a preparatory period of 10 days (!) before deportations could start.

[Stubble]

What's irksome, exactly? It's been known for decades that local SS leaders and Wehrmacht commanders were tasked with implementing political directives from Berlin that were almost logistically impossible to enforce. Local leaders in the Occupied Eastern Territories were not exactly enthusiastic about receiving, housing and feeding millions of Jews in a region already stretched thin by extremely long supply lines, partisan warfare and combat with Russian forces. Ideological concerns from Berlin often clashed with logistical realities in the East, and political leadership in Germany often took no heed to such realities but forced them through despite obvious impossibilities. This was characteristic of the German/Nazi leadership structure at that time, and is reflected in many similar policy directives such as the mass-evacuation of the Crimean peninsula to make room for Volksdeutsche, an order which prompted local commanders to carry out an evacuation plan for hundreds of thousands of people within mere hours of Hitler's order. What Kube's correspondence indicates is the entire opposite of genocidal intent, as he was essentially threatening that thousands would have to be die because too many were arriving too fast to his region.

Posters like me and Callafangers have been pointing out the probability of Jews being housed in what can only be described as open-air camps similar to those used to house the huge numbers of Soviet PoWs that fell into German hands and could not be housed or fed, and millions of whom died. Witness testimony from a French PoW in Ukraine indicated that huge numbers of Jews from all over Europe were present in one of the major PoW/concentration camps in this region, but countless similar camps are practically unknown to this day because they lacked infrastructure and were essentially just fenced-in enclosures in open fields. Local leaders such as Kube naturally complained of the influx of Jews because he had no means of implementing the Final Solution on-location in Belarus.

There was an entire chapter on this in the MGK response to the plagiarist bloggers at HC. I'll quote some of the pertinent passages below:

It goes without saying that difficult or even dismal conditions with regard to housing, hygiene, health and nourishment in particular areas would have posed great obstacles to the actual settlement of Jews. On the other hand it is clear from documents such as the correspondence between Wilhem Kube and Heinrich Lohse following the unannounced arrival of 1,000 Warsaw Jews in Minsk on 31 July 1942 that the resettlement of the Jews was a priority which overrode the concerns of local administration on such issues, that the deportation program was to be carried out no matter what, and that local authorities were left to deal with the problems resulting from the implementation of the resettlement program as best they could. That the authorities in charge were aware that the resettlement of the Jews under the prevailing conditions would take a considerable toll of lives, especially among the western Jews who were accustomed to modern comforts and to a large extent strangers to hard physical labor, is demonstrated by a letter written on 21 June 1942 by Walter Föhl, who was Head of the Main Department with the Reich Commissariat for the Consolidation of German Nationhood in Cracow. The letter was addressed to an unknown member of the SS. A section of it reads:

“Every day now, we have been receiving trains, each with 1,000 Jews
from Europe, processing them and housing them in one way or another,
and sending them on, right into the swamps of White Ruthenia towards the
Arctic Ocean; that is where they will all find themselves when the war is
over – if they survive (and the Jews from the Kurfürstendamm or from Vienna or Pressburg surely will not) – not without having built a few motorways. (But we should not talk about that.)”

While not demonstrating genocidal intent, as Götz Aly wants to have it, this letter – which is fully in line with the decisions made at the Wannsee conference – reflects the intention to utilize the deported Jews for forced labor without regard for any losses in human life caused by the process or the generally harsh conditions prevailing in the region of resettlement. The propensity among the National Socialist leadership for pushing large-scale resettlement plans without any concern for the resettled or the details of the resettlement itself, while leaving such practicalities to be solved by local military or civilian authorities, is clearly demonstrated also by the above-mentioned aborted plan to deport the population of Crimea. Hitler’s evacuation order was passed in the early morning of 3 July 1942 via the administration department of Army Group South to the 11th Army stationed on Crimea, which was given the sole responsibility for planning, organizing and implementing the deportation of 700,000 people. Incredibly enough, the 11th Army had to draw up a plan for this mass expulsion and determine the destination of the deported within a mere 6 hours. According to the plan signed by Erich von Manstein, the urban population would be transported by train, while 2,000 of the rural population would depart each day on foot over the two narrow tongues of land connecting Crimea to the Ukraine, marching 20 km per day, with every fourth day a rest day. The plan foresaw a preparatory period of 10 days (!) before deportations could start.

The bolded part. I slept better when I thought the missing jews had been seamlessly just folded in to populations here or there all over the eastern front, vast as it was.

I think I'm starting to get a clearer picture of the reality of the situation. It ain't pretty.

[Stubble]

No.

Addressed by Lamprecht on the old forum here:

forum.codoh.com/viewtopica5ad.html?p=107580#p107580

I regrettably don't know how to link to the old forum but I have seen others doing so. Perhaps a mod can amend my post to make the above link work for Mr Stubble! In the meantime Mr Stubble, if you have access to the old database you can search for "Kube" and you'll see Lamprecht and others addressing this.

Is this the correct thread?
https://archive.codohforum.com/20230609 ... 80#p107580
[/quote]

Thanks for the thread guys, I'm cracking into it and reading. It's got some more rabbit trails in it, but, there it is. It is always beneficial to look at the path others have taken when looking at the same patch of dirt.

Also I somehow broke the quote, my bad.

[goyim terror alarm]

The bolded part. I slept better when I thought the missing jews had been seamlessly just folded in to populations here or there all over the eastern front, vast as it was.

I think I'm starting to get a clearer picture of the reality of the situation. It ain't pretty.

Is that not just the horrors of modern warfare? It seems like they went above and beyond considering the stark reality. Compare that to what America did even in recent wars with nearly endless resources.

[Stubble]

The bolded part. I slept better when I thought the missing jews had been seamlessly just folded in to populations here or there all over the eastern front, vast as it was.

I think I'm starting to get a clearer picture of the reality of the situation. It ain't pretty.

Is that not just the horrors of modern warfare? It seems like they went above and beyond considering the stark reality. Compare that to what America did even in recent wars with nearly endless resources.

Oh, you're not wrong man. It also doesn't look like preplanned genocide, even remotely. It looks like a complex, multi faceted situation that developed and then deteriorated rapidly and caused a likely outcome given circumstances.

Doesn't make it easy to just realign my perception with this new input. It is going to take me some time to assimilate the data.

It is really fucking jarring, especially when I haven't even finished my coffee yet.

[bombsaway]

“Every day now, we have been receiving trains, each with 1,000 Jews from Europe, processing them and housing them in one way or another, and sending them on, right into the swamps of White Ruthenia towards the Arctic Ocean; that is where they will all find themselves when the war is over – if they survive (and the Jews from the Kurfürstendamm or from Vienna or Pressburg surely will not) – not without having built a few motorways. (But we should not talk about that.)”

Orthodoxy holds that this part of the letter is something of a joke, "into the swamps of White Ruthenia towards the Arctic Ocean"

White Ruthenia is Belarus

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... -03-es.svg

You can see there's no clear path to to the Arctic ocean, therefore that destination is invalid and the swamps of White Ruthenia stands as the destination. So we have to return to Kube's report then, which the letter precedes, being dated 21 June 1942.

Again I should remind that the letter speaks of the total elimination (killing) of Jews in White Ruthenia. Maybe you could argue that they were sending these Jews to be killed or worked to death, but as Stubble points out, there's as much evidence for this as "evidence they were put in rockets and sent to one of the moons of Saturn."

The bolded part. I slept better when I thought the missing jews had been seamlessly just folded in to populations here or there all over the eastern front, vast as it was.

I think I'm starting to get a clearer picture of the reality of the situation. It ain't pretty.

Why isn't there a single witness statement or document describing these "open air camps"? If they were folded into the population the total witness exposure goes up dramatically. Also you don't want to fold them into the population, you want to keep them separate, because they're thought of as grave security threats

Kube: "The Polish Jew, exactly like the Russian Jew, is an enemy of the German nation. He represents a politically dangerous element, a danger which far exceeds his value as a skilled worker."

[Stubble]

“Every day now, we have been receiving trains, each with 1,000 Jews from Europe, processing them and housing them in one way or another, and sending them on, right into the swamps of White Ruthenia towards the Arctic Ocean; that is where they will all find themselves when the war is over – if they survive (and the Jews from the Kurfürstendamm or from Vienna or Pressburg surely will not) – not without having built a few motorways. (But we should not talk about that.)”

Orthodoxy holds that this part of the letter is something of a joke, "into the swamps of White Ruthenia towards the Arctic Ocean"

White Ruthenia is Belarus

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... -03-es.svg

You can see there's no clear path to to the Arctic ocean, therefore that destination is invalid and the swamps of White Ruthenia stands as the destination. So we have to return to Kube's report then, which the letter precedes, being dated 21 June 1942.

Again I should remind that the letter speaks of the total elimination (killing) of Jews in White Ruthenia. Maybe you could argue that they were sending these Jews to be killed or worked to death, but as Stubble points out, there's as much evidence for this as "evidence they were put in rockets and sent to one of the moons of Saturn."

The bolded part. I slept better when I thought the missing jews had been seamlessly just folded in to populations here or there all over the eastern front, vast as it was.

I think I'm starting to get a clearer picture of the reality of the situation. It ain't pretty.

Why isn't there a single witness statement or document describing these "open air camps"? If they were folded into the population the total witness exposure goes up dramatically. Also you don't want to fold them into the population, you want to keep them separate, because they're thought of as grave security threats

Kube: "The Polish Jew, exactly like the Russian Jew, is an enemy of the German nation. He represents a politically dangerous element, a danger which far exceeds his value as a skilled worker."

Clarification; of jews folded into local populations of jews.

Also, if we find out they died in a swamp or in a field, so be it, I'm concerned more about reality than I am my preconceptions or ascribed innocence to the German Authorities.

It passes muster far better than the idea that steam delousing chambers or steam delousing vans turned into homicidal equipment and then bodies burned themselves to ash during some of the crappiest weather of the year and the only picture we got of smoke came from the uprising and was taken by an intelligence asset for the Polish Government in Exile.

Again, I'm just interested in reality. I do need to go slam the rest of that coffee though and get cracking on my labor.