A new David Cole interview and scrutiny of the middle ground

[Archie]

I can forgive an arithmetic error but what I find amusing is that he waited that long to do such a basic and crucial calculation. Not only did bombsaway do very poorly in that thread, he bizarrely continues to indulge in rather shameless and undeserved touchdown celebrations.

How long did I wait to make my correction from 33 to 25? Was it days, weeks, or maybe it was less than 2 hours?

And you can see I was making volume calculations (which can simply be extrapolated to 25) on the first page.

You're grasping at straws buddy.

There's no celebration really, you stopped participating, failed to answer my point about body compression over time, also failed to answer the central question of why bodies destroyed and dumped back in the graves mixed with sand. That's a forfeit.

You corrected it after we pointed out that you were wrong. The issue of burial density (bodies per cubic meter) was raised in the OP, Nov 20, 2024. It was a major point. You posted in the thread extensively. Rage quit the thread for a couple months. And then on January 27th(!) after 14 pages of weirdness you attempted to calculate a burial density (which you should have done on PAGE ONE). Aaaaand you bungled it badly. Again, I don't care that you bungled a calculation. It happens. But I find it amusing that you bungled THAT calculation which was one of the main points raised in the OP. What the hell were you doing all that time!? To me it betrays your shallow thinking on the topic.

[Stubble]

I have still been unable to find any post war testimony from any jews transited east. I find this irksome and mildly uncomfortable.

A hand? Surely we can find a few. A handful maybe?

Honestly, I'd sleep better.

[Nessie]

I have still been unable to find any post war testimony from any jews transited east. I find this irksome and mildly uncomfortable.

A hand? Surely we can find a few. A handful maybe?

Honestly, I'd sleep better.

I suspect the reason why you cannot find any such testimony, is because by 1944, there is no evidence of settled Jews in the east. All the ghettos had closed down, as had many camps. A-B's population was lower than it had been in 1943 and the labour camps were primarily in the General Government, away from the Eastern Front, as the Soviets regained the territory they had lost.

In particular, you will not find a single witness who was sent east from an AR camp or Chelmno, which, considering c2 million people were sent to those camps, must make any revisionist mildly uncomfortable to say the least.

[Stubble]

I have still been unable to find any post war testimony from any jews transited east. I find this irksome and mildly uncomfortable.

A hand? Surely we can find a few. A handful maybe?

Honestly, I'd sleep better.

I suspect the reason why you cannot find any such testimony, is because by 1944, there is no evidence of settled Jews in the east. All the ghettos had closed down, as had many camps. A-B's population was lower than it had been in 1943 and the labour camps were primarily in the General Government, away from the Eastern Front, as the Soviets regained the territory they had lost.

In particular, you will not find a single witness who was sent east from an AR camp or Chelmno, which, considering c2 million people were sent to those camps, must make any revisionist mildly uncomfortable to say the least.

I appreciate your perspective. Thank you for providing more specificity on where to look.

[bombsaway]

I have still been unable to find any post war testimony from any jews transited east. I find this irksome and mildly uncomfortable.

A hand? Surely we can find a few. A handful maybe?

Honestly, I'd sleep better.

Revisionists have surveyed the literature extensively

https://codoh.com/library/document/evid ... st-part-1/
https://codoh.com/library/document/evid ... st-part-2/
https://codoh.com/library/document/evid ... st-part-3/

There is also a long section on resettlement in this book https://archive.org/details/Exterminati ... 9/mode/2up

Graf says at the end "we are unable to produce German wartime documents about the destination and the fate of the deportees" Add to that documents of any kind, or any witness testimonies, from Jews, Germans, Russians, Ukrainians. It's completely speculative.

You can see the state revisionism is in when they need to rely on diarists like Herman Kruk, who reported on a rumor of Dutch Jews being transited east, while in a later entry corrected this. Only their furniture had come, they had been killed prior to this.

This is a good summation of the problem from the orthodox side https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... uated.html

I commend you for trying to do the research, as well as your ability to plow through discomfort, I think most revisionists wouldn't do it. It's sign of intellectual honesty to be uncomfortable, why I don't think most revisionists have. The honesty is one that is self-directed. People are lying to themselves when they brush away such problems as easily as one might dust off one's shoulder.

[Stubble]

I have still been unable to find any post war testimony from any jews transited east. I find this irksome and mildly uncomfortable.

A hand? Surely we can find a few. A handful maybe?

Honestly, I'd sleep better.

Revisionists have surveyed the literature extensively

https://codoh.com/library/document/evid ... st-part-1/
https://codoh.com/library/document/evid ... st-part-2/
https://codoh.com/library/document/evid ... st-part-3/

There is also a long section on resettlement in this book https://archive.org/details/Exterminati ... 9/mode/2up

Graf says at the end "we are unable to produce German wartime documents about the destination and the fate of the deportees" Add to that documents of any kind, or any witness testimonies, from Jews, Germans, Russians, Ukrainians. It's completely speculative.

You can see the state revisionism is in when they need to rely on diarists like Herman Kruk, who reported on a rumor of Dutch Jews being transited east, while in a later entry corrected this. Only their furniture had come, they had been killed prior to this.

This is a good summation of the problem from the orthodox side https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... uated.html

I commend you for trying to do the research, as well as your ability to plow through discomfort, I think most revisionists wouldn't do it.

Thanks bombs, I appreciate it. You have moved quite a bit of overburden for me and so my task of digging is reduced.

So far as willingness to engage with history regardless of comfort, well, I'm looking for truth. Funny thing about it, truth doesn't care how I feel about it, it just is.

I'd very much like to find evidence and testimony. If I can't, I will have to reconcile that. Ultimately, this fact seems to be fundamental in nature and uncomfortable in meaning.

I don't 'like' it.

A quick question, is there any documentary trail that leads to a final disposition of jews sent in a support role on operation barbarossa, the ones in black uniforms with green armbands?

[bombsaway]

A quick question, is there any documentary trail that leads to a final disposition of jews sent in a support role on operation barbarossa, the ones in black uniforms with green armbands?

I don't understand, you mean Jews put to work in occupied USSR?

[Stubble]

A quick question, is there any documentary trail that leads to a final disposition of jews sent in a support role on operation barbarossa, the ones in black uniforms with green armbands?

I don't understand, you mean Jews put to work in occupied USSR?

Yes sir, working on communication lines and rail infrastructure.

[bombsaway]

A quick question, is there any documentary trail that leads to a final disposition of jews sent in a support role on operation barbarossa, the ones in black uniforms with green armbands?

I don't understand, you mean Jews put to work in occupied USSR?

Yes sir, working on communication lines and rail infrastructure.

I don't know specifically about that but there's evidence of Jews being brought in for work, though this stops at a certain point. I think the last document is around the time mass deportations began from the Polish ghettos.

Ultimately there wasn't much need to bring Jews in, because there were too many native Jews there already. The documents are clear that the Nazis were trying to decrease their reliance on Jewish workers eg

Strauch, 8-10.4.43: "When the civil administration arrived it already found economic enterprises operated by the Wehrmacht aided by Jews. At a time when the Bielorussians wanted to murder the Jews, the Wehrmacht cultivated them. In that way Jews reached key positions and it is difficult today to remove them completely, for then the enterprises are liable to be destroyed, something we cannot allow ourselves. I am of the opinion that we can confidently say that of the 150,000, 130,000 have already disappeared. 22,000 are still alive in the area of the Gebietskommissariat." [Shalom Cholawsky, The Jews of Bielorussia during World War II, Amsterdam, 1998, p.64, citing Protokoll über die Tagung der Gebietskommissare, Hauptabteilungsleiter und Abteilungsleiter des. Generalkommissars in Minsk vom 8.April bis 10.April 1943. YV TR-10/808; also in Erich Haberer, ‘The German police and genocide in Belorussia, 1941-1944. Part I: Police deployment and Nazi genocidal directives’, Journal of Genocide Research, 2001, 3 (1), p.13, citing CSA-Minsk 370/1/1263/126-45].

Strauch again, same document

I would ask you to see to it that the Jew disappears at least where he is superfluous. We do not comprehend that there should be Jewish cleaning ladies, telephone operators, etc.; and also, we do not understand that so many bootblacks are needed. They are superfluous and therefore must disappear. We will manage quite well without Jews. We will reduce their numbers by half without encountering economic difficulties (translation by Haberer here)

https://www.yadvashem.org/untoldstories ... y_Kube.pdf

This document is important because it shows the highest civilian authority in Belarus talking in supportive terms about the killing of Jewish laborers.

"Naturally I and the SD would like it best if Jewry in the Generalbezirk of Belorussia was finally eliminated after their labor is no longer required by the Wehrmacht. "

And also that Polish Jews should not be brought in

I beg the Reichskommissar (already warned by telegram) to prevent the dispatch of such transports, in his capacity as supreme authority in Ostland. The Polish Jew, exactly like the Russian Jew, is an enemy of the German nation. He represents a politically dangerous element, a danger which far exceeds his value as a skilled worker.

So if they're already killing Jewish workers it wouldn't make sense for them to bring in more.

[Stubble]

I don't understand, you mean Jews put to work in occupied USSR?

Yes sir, working on communication lines and rail infrastructure.

I don't know specifically about that but there's evidence of Jews being brought in for work, though this stops at a certain point. I think the last document is around the time mass deportations began from the Polish ghettos.

Ultimately there wasn't much need to bring Jews in, because there were too many native Jews there already. The documents are clear that the Nazis were trying to decrease their reliance on Jewish workers eg

Strauch, 8-10.4.43: "When the civil administration arrived it already found economic enterprises operated by the Wehrmacht aided by Jews. At a time when the Bielorussians wanted to murder the Jews, the Wehrmacht cultivated them. In that way Jews reached key positions and it is difficult today to remove them completely, for then the enterprises are liable to be destroyed, something we cannot allow ourselves. I am of the opinion that we can confidently say that of the 150,000, 130,000 have already disappeared. 22,000 are still alive in the area of the Gebietskommissariat." [Shalom Cholawsky, The Jews of Bielorussia during World War II, Amsterdam, 1998, p.64, citing Protokoll über die Tagung der Gebietskommissare, Hauptabteilungsleiter und Abteilungsleiter des. Generalkommissars in Minsk vom 8.April bis 10.April 1943. YV TR-10/808; also in Erich Haberer, ‘The German police and genocide in Belorussia, 1941-1944. Part I: Police deployment and Nazi genocidal directives’, Journal of Genocide Research, 2001, 3 (1), p.13, citing CSA-Minsk 370/1/1263/126-45].

Strauch again, same document

I would ask you to see to it that the Jew disappears at least where he is superfluous. We do not comprehend that there should be Jewish cleaning ladies, telephone operators, etc.; and also, we do not understand that so many bootblacks are needed. They are superfluous and therefore must disappear. We will manage quite well without Jews. We will reduce their numbers by half without encountering economic difficulties (translation by Haberer here)

https://www.yadvashem.org/untoldstories ... y_Kube.pdf

This document is important because it shows the highest civilian authority in Belarus talking in supportive terms about the killing of Jewish laborers.

"Naturally I and the SD would like it best if Jewry in the Generalbezirk of Belorussia was finally eliminated after their labor is no longer required by the Wehrmacht. "

And also that Polish Jews should not be brought in

I beg the Reichskommissar (already warned by telegram) to prevent the dispatch of such transports, in his capacity as supreme authority in Ostland. The Polish Jew, exactly like the Russian Jew, is an enemy of the German nation. He represents a politically dangerous element, a danger which far exceeds his value as a skilled worker.

So if they're already killing Jewish workers it wouldn't make sense for them to bring in more.

And such ended a line into a comfortable inquiry.

Damn.