ELI5

[Stubble]

Ashes are ground up bone. So they would have had to mix the pulverized bone (which is not created from burning, that just leaves large pieces of charred bone) with the wood ash for your assessment to be accurate. Kola distinguishes between wood ash and body ash (cremains) anyway, you would know this if you read his report.

https://www.holocausthistoricalsociety. ... tions.html

Do you see where he mentions charcoal? That's wood ash. When they're mixed together he says so.

Any calculation of bodies represented to be present by the kola study is an extrapolation based off of an insufficient dataset.

One could shoot high or shoot low and there is insufficient evidence to back or properly refute either position.

Ultimately what I'd like to believe and what are true may be incongruent. Facts being as they may be, the kola study isn't going to be the piece that moves me off of my position. It lacks certainty.

Hell, they couldn't even find a gas chamber there.

If I were to posit a theory, then the graves represent 2 classes of detainees.

Class 1) died in transit.

Class 2) executed by the einsatzgruppen as communist sympathizers, partisan soldiers or communist intelligentsia.

Class 2 makes me uncomfortable a little. It is broad. I can evidence that however. I can also evidence class 2 as being executed. I can also evidence class 2 being referred to with regard to operation Reinhardt camps.

I can't evidence a gas chamber there, I can't produce documents supporting a campaign of genocide unless I bring along assumption and twist words claiming they are code, and I can't find the volume of fuel or cremains to support the thesis that over half a million people met their end there.

You should look at grave #5 btw and think about its size and the composition of the crematory layers. Explain it within the rev context.

The Jews sent to Belzec are described in German documents as elderly, sick, and children, non-employable. Partisans weren't sent there.

Re "code words", you listened to the David Cole interview. Goebbels said Jews were being mass "liquidated" in Globocnik's camps (60% of the population of the Jews in the GG). You really think "liquidated" is coded language? I remember talking to a denier and they were even like, there's not even any documents where they talk about Jews being killed or liquidated is there? I was like, oh sir . . .

I'll have to dig deeper into these specificities you are calling attention to.

To my knowledge, liquidation was generally in reference to assets and property, however as presented in the context you outline that doesn't pass muster. I will have to read it.

I apologize for my cursory familiarity with these specifics. In my defense, I was originally presented with 6,000,000 jews exterminated by the Germans in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms as part of a systematic genocide. After deeply delving into that thesis, I have found it to be inaccurate and this has given me a chip on my shoulder.

It is not easy to trust and believe the orthodoxy when it has changed so much where my personal experience with it is concerned. Forgive my apprehension and understand that it doesn't come from a dishonest place.

Again, the gas chamber isn't where it is supposed to have been and I personally don't find the cremains consistent in quantity or distribution to the claim as presented, although I freely admit the dataset is insufficient.

I'd say further study of the site was merited, but for some reason, that is forbidden...

[bombsaway]

Where in the report does he mention that crematory ashes (which can be either wood or bodies) or body ashes are ground bones? In some graves he distinguishes crematory ashes from human bones (ground or whole?), other times he mentions body ashes, but does not specify which were bones or which were ground.

That's what crematory ashes are, ground up bone.

What are cremation ashes made of?
Bone fragments: The main component of cremation ashes is bone fragments. Bones are made of calcium phosphates and carbonates, which allow them to survive the intense heat of cremation.
Salts and minerals: Cremation ashes contain small amounts of salts and other minerals.
Metal fragments: Metal fragments from dental fillings, jewelry, and surgical implants may remain after cremation.

[TlsMS93]

Where in the report does he mention that crematory ashes (which can be either wood or bodies) or body ashes are ground bones? In some graves he distinguishes crematory ashes from human bones (ground or whole?), other times he mentions body ashes, but does not specify which were bones or which were ground.

That's what crematory ashes are, ground up bone.

What are cremation ashes made of?
Bone fragments: The main component of cremation ashes is bone fragments. Bones are made of calcium phosphates and carbonates, which allow them to survive the intense heat of cremation.
Salts and minerals: Cremation ashes contain small amounts of salts and other minerals.
Metal fragments: Metal fragments from dental fillings, jewelry, and surgical implants may remain after cremation.

Sorry, but that is your interpretation. Cremation ashes are everything that results from cremation, and this involves wood ashes such as ashes from human bodies. Ground bones would be a post-cremation process since you say that some bones survive the heat. Logically, there would be a grinding process for these remains, such as using machines or even a pestle, as some narratives claim. The rest of the cremated bones would not even be distinguishable as ashes from the rest of the body, much less from wood ashes.

I don't know what this would solve for you. The question remains, the 21,000 m3 of space would not be enough to fit even the wood ashes. And what was the hurry that the Germans were in to not have completely cleaned this camp of any trace whatsoever? Even so, there are remains of uncremated bodies, animal remains, quicklime, probably to neutralize the odor of those who arrived dead on the train.

Nothing is consistent with what the Holocaust narrative argues. Did the Germans really think that after Katyn the Soviets wouldn't want revenge and search any premises they created to use as a counter-narrative? It makes no sense at all and even the creator of the article you published questions this.

[bombsaway]

Where in the report does he mention that crematory ashes (which can be either wood or bodies) or body ashes are ground bones? In some graves he distinguishes crematory ashes from human bones (ground or whole?), other times he mentions body ashes, but does not specify which were bones or which were ground.

That's what crematory ashes are, ground up bone.

What are cremation ashes made of?
Bone fragments: The main component of cremation ashes is bone fragments. Bones are made of calcium phosphates and carbonates, which allow them to survive the intense heat of cremation.
Salts and minerals: Cremation ashes contain small amounts of salts and other minerals.
Metal fragments: Metal fragments from dental fillings, jewelry, and surgical implants may remain after cremation.

Sorry, but that is your interpretation. Cremation ashes are everything that results from cremation, and this involves wood ashes such as ashes from human bodies.

If you're saying this is a conventional definition for crematory remains, body ashes, find me an example of this

When they're mixed kola specifies "Over body layers there were some levels of crematory remains, mixed with charcoal in turn with layers of sandy soil"

I have a literalist interpretation of the document, using conventional definition for what cremains are. You are playing fast and loose with terms (I say) which is sort of a tell that Kola found something down there that doesn't set well with you and your belief system. Otherwise you wouldn't have to do this.

[HansHill]

...that Kola found something down there that doesn't set well with you and your belief system. Otherwise you wouldn't have to do this...

The best thing for you that Kola could have found would be the Gas Chambers he was looking for. Unfortunately for you, there were no Gas Chambers to be found, and you are left empty handed to prolong this charade of literally sifting through the dirt for a Holocaust that doesn't exist.

[bombsaway]

...that Kola found something down there that doesn't set well with you and your belief system. Otherwise you wouldn't have to do this...

The best thing for you that Kola could have found would be the Gas Chambers he was looking for. Unfortunately for you, there were no Gas Chambers to be found, and you are left empty handed to prolong this charade of literally sifting through the dirt for a Holocaust that doesn't exist.

As globocnik said in his letter, all the facilities were removed

The camp was more or less totally plowed over, only the faint trades of foundations remain (this is suspicious in and of itself). I would not expect to be able to find identifiable gas chambers here

[HansHill]

...that Kola found something down there that doesn't set well with you and your belief system. Otherwise you wouldn't have to do this...

The best thing for you that Kola could have found would be the Gas Chambers he was looking for. Unfortunately for you, there were no Gas Chambers to be found, and you are left empty handed to prolong this charade of literally sifting through the dirt for a Holocaust that doesn't exist.

As globocnik said in his letter, all the facilities were removed

The camp was more or less totally plowed over, only the faint trades of foundations remain (this is suspicious in and of itself). I would not expect to be able to find identifiable gas chambers here

This contradicts your precious Kola report, in which he declares the wooden shack as the Gas Chamber. So which is it? Wooden Gas Chambers or no Gas Chambers?

[bombsaway]

The best thing for you that Kola could have found would be the Gas Chambers he was looking for. Unfortunately for you, there were no Gas Chambers to be found, and you are left empty handed to prolong this charade of literally sifting through the dirt for a Holocaust that doesn't exist.

As globocnik said in his letter, all the facilities were removed

The camp was more or less totally plowed over, only the faint trades of foundations remain (this is suspicious in and of itself). I would not expect to be able to find identifiable gas chambers here

This contradicts your precious Kola report, in which he declares the wooden shack as the Gas Chamber. So which is it? Wooden Gas Chambers or no Gas Chambers?

Quote from the study please, I don't know what you're referring to

[Stubble]

...that Kola found something down there that doesn't set well with you and your belief system. Otherwise you wouldn't have to do this...

The best thing for you that Kola could have found would be the Gas Chambers he was looking for. Unfortunately for you, there were no Gas Chambers to be found, and you are left empty handed to prolong this charade of literally sifting through the dirt for a Holocaust that doesn't exist.

As globocnik said in his letter, all the facilities were removed

The camp was more or less totally plowed over, only the faint trades of foundations remain (this is suspicious in and of itself). I would not expect to be able to find identifiable gas chambers here

And yet such complete obliteration of the cite at treblinka 2 was impossible, and the steam chambers, I mean gas chambers, were found. Along with a tile, that when the archeologist saw a 6 pointed trademark on the back of she went on a tangent about how that must have been the front of the title to make jews feel safe as they were murdered...

Have you ever removed a concrete foundation, by hand?

[bombsaway]

I'll have to dig deeper into these specificities you are calling attention to.

To my knowledge, liquidation was generally in reference to assets and property, however as presented in the context you outline that doesn't pass muster. I will have to read it.

I apologize for my cursory familiarity with these specifics. In my defense, I was originally presented with 6,000,000 jews exterminated by the Germans in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms as part of a systematic genocide. After deeply delving into that thesis, I have found it to be inaccurate and this has given me a chip on my shoulder.

It is not easy to trust and believe the orthodoxy when it has changed so much where my personal experience with it is concerned. Forgive my apprehension and understand that it doesn't come from a dishonest place.

Again, the gas chamber isn't where it is supposed to have been and I personally don't find the cremains consistent in quantity or distribution to the claim as presented, although I freely admit the dataset is insufficient.

I'd say further study of the site was merited, but for some reason, that is forbidden...

That thesis is not one that has been defended by historians . . . If you think orthodox history has "changed" you should substantiate this by looking at the earliest histories by Reitlinger and Hilberg. As more evidence has come in , the numbers and specifics have been adjusted, but not dramatically so, and usually upwards.

You seem like an honest seeker of the truth so if you would like you and I can do a research project in that corner of this forum where I'll present all the evidence to you systematically. But it is important for you not to jump to conclusions unless you can substantiate those, don't just assume things.

[Stubble]

I'll have to dig deeper into these specificities you are calling attention to.

To my knowledge, liquidation was generally in reference to assets and property, however as presented in the context you outline that doesn't pass muster. I will have to read it.

I apologize for my cursory familiarity with these specifics. In my defense, I was originally presented with 6,000,000 jews exterminated by the Germans in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms as part of a systematic genocide. After deeply delving into that thesis, I have found it to be inaccurate and this has given me a chip on my shoulder.

It is not easy to trust and believe the orthodoxy when it has changed so much where my personal experience with it is concerned. Forgive my apprehension and understand that it doesn't come from a dishonest place.

Again, the gas chamber isn't where it is supposed to have been and I personally don't find the cremains consistent in quantity or distribution to the claim as presented, although I freely admit the dataset is insufficient.

I'd say further study of the site was merited, but for some reason, that is forbidden...

That thesis is not one that has been defended by historians . . . If you think orthodox history has "changed" you should substantiate this by looking at the earliest histories by Reitlinger and Hilberg. As more evidence has come in , the numbers and specifics have been adjusted, but not dramatically so, and usually upwards.

You seem like an honest seeker of the truth so if you would like you and I can do a research project in that corner of this forum where I'll present all the evidence to you systematically. But it is important for you not to jump to conclusions unless you can substantiate those, don't just assume things.

That seems like a thoughtful exercise and I am not opposed to such an idea. I'll try to keep an objective eye and I will not assert claims I cannot verify or at least substantiate.

For the record, I was referring to my education in school and through mass media documentaries on PBS, the history channel etc.

Ultimately I just legitimately want to know what exactly happened during the kerfuffle or shoah. Free of propaganda and bias. Just what factually occurred in reality.

[Archie]

I kind of did this already

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1399#p1399

So you can see eg from this one grave alone (grave number 5) there area about 900 cubic meters of ash layers. Kola describes about 1.5 meters worth of dirt, the rest is ash layers. If the grave was 4.5 meters deep that means 2/3s were ash layers. Total volume is given of 1350, which means a total of 900 cubic meters.

You're going grave by grave it seems like, so how many bodies were buried here?

In other graves, like grave number 4 Kola provides the volume of the "crematory part". 250 cubic meters. In these two graves alone, we're over a thousand cubic meters.

What does Mattogno mean by "sand and ash mixture" with ash sometimes being up to 50%?

I take it to mean the ratio of ash vs sand in the crematory parts. If we look at grave #5 alone, at a 1:10 ratio of ash vs sand we get 90 cubic meters of ash, which corresponds to 60,000 people.

This is where you begin to run into problems and your desperation to move the debate in other directions like (why weren't the graves perfectly lined up perfectly) becomes evident.

Why were the ashes mixed with sand and diluted, maybe 1:100, 1:1000? (this latter figure finally gets you to 600 bodies, about what you calculate per grave)

The reason why the graves weren't perfectly ordered is maybe certain parts of the camp were dryer than other, making it harder to dig 15 foot deep graves without hitting water.

In addition to this,

1) Jews may have been the ones establishing grave shape and location, with graves being dug simultaneously
2) hitting undergound waters or dampness, soil type may have affected grave shape
3) different soil types some areas may have had more clay, others more sand or rocks

you see how easy it is for me to answer a question you've posed directly. In your next post I would like you to answer about the ash / sand mixture without getting sidetracked.

There's no way 2/3 of that grave is pure cremains. You really need to learn to sanity check things. You suggest the ash in grave 5 represents 60,000 bodies. This would would mean the original whole bodies were packed at nearly 45 bodies per cubic meter which is totally impossible. This would mean the remains of tens of thousands from other graves were moved to this grave. Or ... maybe your number is just totally wrong?

As in the other thread, you continue to ignore the wood ash. The wood ash should be a good 5x the human ash. That has to go somewhere.

[Stubble]

I kind of did this already

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1399#p1399

So you can see eg from this one grave alone (grave number 5) there area about 900 cubic meters of ash layers. Kola describes about 1.5 meters worth of dirt, the rest is ash layers. If the grave was 4.5 meters deep that means 2/3s were ash layers. Total volume is given of 1350, which means a total of 900 cubic meters.

You're going grave by grave it seems like, so how many bodies were buried here?

In other graves, like grave number 4 Kola provides the volume of the "crematory part". 250 cubic meters. In these two graves alone, we're over a thousand cubic meters.

What does Mattogno mean by "sand and ash mixture" with ash sometimes being up to 50%?

I take it to mean the ratio of ash vs sand in the crematory parts. If we look at grave #5 alone, at a 1:10 ratio of ash vs sand we get 90 cubic meters of ash, which corresponds to 60,000 people.

This is where you begin to run into problems and your desperation to move the debate in other directions like (why weren't the graves perfectly lined up perfectly) becomes evident.

Why were the ashes mixed with sand and diluted, maybe 1:100, 1:1000? (this latter figure finally gets you to 600 bodies, about what you calculate per grave)

The reason why the graves weren't perfectly ordered is maybe certain parts of the camp were dryer than other, making it harder to dig 15 foot deep graves without hitting water.

In addition to this,

1) Jews may have been the ones establishing grave shape and location, with graves being dug simultaneously
2) hitting undergound waters or dampness, soil type may have affected grave shape
3) different soil types some areas may have had more clay, others more sand or rocks

you see how easy it is for me to answer a question you've posed directly. In your next post I would like you to answer about the ash / sand mixture without getting sidetracked.

There's no way 2/3 of that grave is pure cremains. You really need to learn to sanity check things. You suggest the ash in grave 5 represents 60,000 bodies. This would would mean the original whole bodies were packed at nearly 45 bodies per cubic meter which is totally impossible. This would mean the remains of tens of thousands from other graves were moved to this grave. Or ... maybe your number is just totally wrong?

As in the other thread, you continue to ignore the wood ash. The wood ash should be a good 5x the human ash. That has to go somewhere.

Now hold on Archie, how much fuel are you assuming.

If eyewitnesses are to be believed you just grab some twigs and straw to get 'er started and jewesses and jewish children burn up the men...

[bombsaway]

I kind of did this already

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1399#p1399

So you can see eg from this one grave alone (grave number 5) there area about 900 cubic meters of ash layers. Kola describes about 1.5 meters worth of dirt, the rest is ash layers. If the grave was 4.5 meters deep that means 2/3s were ash layers. Total volume is given of 1350, which means a total of 900 cubic meters.

You're going grave by grave it seems like, so how many bodies were buried here?

In other graves, like grave number 4 Kola provides the volume of the "crematory part". 250 cubic meters. In these two graves alone, we're over a thousand cubic meters.

What does Mattogno mean by "sand and ash mixture" with ash sometimes being up to 50%?

I take it to mean the ratio of ash vs sand in the crematory parts. If we look at grave #5 alone, at a 1:10 ratio of ash vs sand we get 90 cubic meters of ash, which corresponds to 60,000 people.

This is where you begin to run into problems and your desperation to move the debate in other directions like (why weren't the graves perfectly lined up perfectly) becomes evident.

Why were the ashes mixed with sand and diluted, maybe 1:100, 1:1000? (this latter figure finally gets you to 600 bodies, about what you calculate per grave)

The reason why the graves weren't perfectly ordered is maybe certain parts of the camp were dryer than other, making it harder to dig 15 foot deep graves without hitting water.

In addition to this,

1) Jews may have been the ones establishing grave shape and location, with graves being dug simultaneously
2) hitting undergound waters or dampness, soil type may have affected grave shape
3) different soil types some areas may have had more clay, others more sand or rocks

you see how easy it is for me to answer a question you've posed directly. In your next post I would like you to answer about the ash / sand mixture without getting sidetracked.

There's no way 2/3 of that grave is pure cremains. You really need to learn to sanity check things. You suggest the ash in grave 5 represents 60,000 bodies. This would would mean the original whole bodies were packed at nearly 45 bodies per cubic meter which is totally impossible. This would mean the remains of tens of thousands from other graves were moved to this grave. Or ... maybe your number is just totally wrong?

I never said the grave was 2/3s pure cremains, but rather 2/3s cremains sand mixture, with the cremain to sand ratio being 1:10. This gives you 60,000 bodies worth.

Your assumptions here are completely wrong. I'll give you real world example, doing exactly what you have repeatedly failed to do.

Grave number 5 was 1350 cubic meters. It may have contained 25,000 bodies, at a ratio close to the 20 bodies per cubic meter that I justified in the other thread (mostly due to bodies compacting over time, bursting, leaking being pushed down to fill empty space). So they extract those bodies, destroy them, mix with sand, and that becomes the first ash/sand layer. Then they cover with a 25 cm layer of dirt as described by Kola. Then from other graves additional bodies are brought forth, destroyed, cremains mixed with sand, and those form the other layers.

To me you are clearly trying (desperately I think) to come up with reasons why this or that is impossible, but approaching this from an open ended perspective. Otherwise you wouldn't make such elementary and easily responded to mistakes as the above. And still you haven't justified the findings from a revisionist perspective. It should be easy for you, but it's been 3 or 4 months now, this is why I think you actually can't do this.

W regards to wood ash, you assume it would be dumped back in the graves, you also assume would is the main fuel force and not liquid flammables as attested to by witnesses consistently. To me this feels like More Desperation, rather than you being open ended and truly inquisitive, trying to fit your predetermined conclusions.

The bottom line is Kola reported something. You have to deal with these findings somehow within your framework for your framework to be workable. You can't just criticize, though I understand it feels safe to point fingers without having to deal with fingers pointing at you.

[Stubble]

Bombs, 2 things;

1) wood ash cannot be easily and readily separated from cremains and to a large degree would have been mixed with cremains and interred.

2) there is no liquid fuel source that fits the criteria as a fuel for the open air cremation of bodies. None. You cannot use a liquid fuel for the destruction of a body in an open air cremation. Nothing burns hot or long enough. You are left with wood or coal. Coal was not used. That leaves wood.