ELI5

[HansHill]

...completely lacking in any evidence. Revisionism is hopeless at the basic task of evidencing claims...

Says the chap without a gas chamber.

[Nessie]

...completely lacking in any evidence. Revisionism is hopeless at the basic task of evidencing claims...

Says the chap without a gas chamber.

There is a ton of evidence for gas chambers. You cannot even name a witness who worked inside an AR camp, Chelmno or A-B Krema who you believe, you lack so much evidence.

[TlsMS93]

The apostles gave their lives to testify to the resurrected Jesus, and yet the Jews did not take their testimonies seriously. But they want the world to swallow their testimonies, saying that they were forced to work with the cremations of those who died in the camps, an attitude that they considered abominable according to their faith. The first allegations of gas chambers came from people who had never set foot in one, only mentioning places in the camp where they supposedly saw smoke, some even flames in the chimney, although it was designed not to emit and based on current rumors, and the post-war Sonderkommando simply went with the flow, inserting melodramatic details into the narrative.

A Jew 2,000 years ago warned the Gentiles not to believe in Jewish fables

[bombsaway]

...

10,000 bodies is for sure possible, but becomes silly when you start considering the ash layers. 10,00 bodies worth of ash would makes around 15 cubic meters. Kola's described layers are thousands of cubic meters. Why do you need to mix with sand? Why do you need to spread across 30/33 graves with layers that stretch from one end of the graves to the other? No explanation has been given here, and I don't think one exists.

Mattogno:

But the graphs of the analyses of the 137 drill cores presented by Kola show that the ash in the graves is normally intermingled with sand, that in more than half of the samples the layer of ash and sand is extremely thin, and that at times the ash is close to being completely absent. Furthermore, out of the 236 samples, 99 are irrelevant, and among the 137 relevant ones more than half show only a very thin layer of sand and ash, whereas among the remainder the percentage of sand is not less than 50%, and the thickness of the sand/ash layer varies greatly. Finally – and Kola does not state this explicitly – besides the sand, the human remains are intermingled also with animal remains: (HH9, pg. 87)

It is unclear what the precise volume of cremains is. You claim "thousands of cubic meters" but you haven't supported that calculation.

You have mentioned the sand a bunch of times, always implying without explanation that this supports your position. In fact it undermines your position because it reduces the amount of actual cremains.

Why are the ashes spread out? This is a "they wouldn't have done it that way" argument. Probably because the bodies were originally buried that way, i.e., in a totally haphazard manner. A few hundred in this grave. A few hundred over here. And so on.

I kind of did this already

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1399#p1399

So you can see eg from this one grave alone (grave number 5) there area about 900 cubic meters of ash layers. Kola describes about 1.5 meters worth of dirt, the rest is ash layers. If the grave was 4.5 meters deep that means 2/3s were ash layers. Total volume is given of 1350, which means a total of 900 cubic meters.

You're going grave by grave it seems like, so how many bodies were buried here?

In other graves, like grave number 4 Kola provides the volume of the "crematory part". 250 cubic meters. In these two graves alone, we're over a thousand cubic meters.

What does Mattogno mean by "sand and ash mixture" with ash sometimes being up to 50%?

I take it to mean the ratio of ash vs sand in the crematory parts. If we look at grave #5 alone, at a 1:10 ratio of ash vs sand we get 90 cubic meters of ash, which corresponds to 60,000 people.

This is where you begin to run into problems and your desperation to move the debate in other directions like (why weren't the graves perfectly lined up perfectly) becomes evident.

Why were the ashes mixed with sand and diluted, maybe 1:100, 1:1000? (this latter figure finally gets you to 600 bodies, about what you calculate per grave)

The reason why the graves weren't perfectly ordered is maybe certain parts of the camp were dryer than other, making it harder to dig 15 foot deep graves without hitting water.

In addition to this,

1) Jews may have been the ones establishing grave shape and location, with graves being dug simultaneously
2) hitting undergound waters or dampness, soil type may have affected grave shape
3) different soil types some areas may have had more clay, others more sand or rocks

you see how easy it is for me to answer a question you've posed directly. In your next post I would like you to answer about the ash / sand mixture without getting sidetracked.

[HansHill]

There is a ton of evidence for gas chambers. You cannot even name a witness who worked inside an AR camp, Chelmno or A-B Krema who you believe, you lack so much evidence.

There is no gas chamber at Belzec.

Correct I don't believe them, they are lying through their teeth because... there is no gas chamber at Belzec.

[Stubble]

There is a ton of evidence for gas chambers. You cannot even name a witness who worked inside an AR camp, Chelmno or A-B Krema who you believe, you lack so much evidence.

There is no gas chamber at Belzec.

Correct I don't believe them, they are lying through their teeth because... there is no gas chamber at Belzec.

There isn't even a foundation of one. There is absolutely no evidence of it where witnesses claim it to have been. In its place is a 'longhouse' style barracks if I recall correctly.

[HansHill]

There isn't even a foundation of one. There is absolutely no evidence of it where witnesses claim it to have been. In its place is a 'longhouse' style barracks if I recall correctly.

Absolutely correct!

For those interested, HH Vol 9 - chapters 5.2 - 5.3 explains what Mr Stubble and I are referring to here.

[Nessie]

There is a ton of evidence for gas chambers. You cannot even name a witness who worked inside an AR camp, Chelmno or A-B Krema who you believe, you lack so much evidence.

There is no gas chamber at Belzec.

Correct I don't believe them, they are lying through their teeth because... there is no gas chamber at Belzec.

The use of a gas chambers at Belzec is evidenced. Revisionists cannot evidence the camp being used for another purpose.

[Stubble]

It's not evidenced to have existed, as described, in the correspondent location...

Just to have been used...

Not by bodies, not by physical evidence, but by testimony alone.

[TlsMS93]

How can human ashes be separated from wood ashes, since the former would obviously fall into the latter and mix in the process? So finding ashes is just a detail. Finding 90 cubic meters of ashes is nothing, considering the greater proportion of wood ashes that would be formed in the open-air cremation process.

[bombsaway]

How can human ashes be separated from wood ashes, since the former would obviously fall into the latter and mix in the process? So finding ashes is just a detail. Finding 90 cubic meters of ashes is nothing, considering the greater proportion of wood ashes that would be formed in the open-air cremation process.

Ashes are ground up bone. So they would have had to mix the pulverized bone (which is not created from burning, that just leaves large pieces of charred bone) with the wood ash for your assessment to be accurate. Kola distinguishes between wood ash and body ash (cremains) anyway, you would know this if you read his report.

https://www.holocausthistoricalsociety. ... tions.html

Do you see where he mentions charcoal? That's wood ash. When they're mixed together he says so.

[Stubble]

How can human ashes be separated from wood ashes, since the former would obviously fall into the latter and mix in the process? So finding ashes is just a detail. Finding 90 cubic meters of ashes is nothing, considering the greater proportion of wood ashes that would be formed in the open-air cremation process.

Ashes are ground up bone. So they would have had to mix the pulverized bone (which is not created from burning, that just leaves large pieces of charred bone) with the wood ash for your assessment to be accurate. Kola distinguishes between wood ash and body ash (cremains) anyway, you would know this if you read his report.

https://www.holocausthistoricalsociety. ... tions.html

Do you see where he mentions charcoal? That's wood ash. When they're mixed together he says so.

Any calculation of bodies represented to be present by the kola study is an extrapolation based off of an insufficient dataset.

One could shoot high or shoot low and there is insufficient evidence to back or properly refute either position.

Ultimately what I'd like to believe and what are true may be incongruent. Facts being as they may be, the kola study isn't going to be the piece that moves me off of my position. It lacks certainty.

Hell, they couldn't even find a gas chamber there.

If I were to posit a theory, then the graves represent 2 classes of detainees.

Class 1) died in transit.

Class 2) executed by the einsatzgruppen as communist sympathizers, partisan soldiers or communist intelligentsia.

Class 2 makes me uncomfortable a little. It is broad. I can evidence that however. I can also evidence class 2 as being executed. I can also evidence class 2 being referred to with regard to operation Reinhardt camps.

I can't evidence a gas chamber there, I can't produce documents supporting a campaign of genocide unless I bring along assumption and twist words claiming they are code, and I can't find the volume of fuel or cremains to support the thesis that over half a million people met their end there.

[bombsaway]

How can human ashes be separated from wood ashes, since the former would obviously fall into the latter and mix in the process? So finding ashes is just a detail. Finding 90 cubic meters of ashes is nothing, considering the greater proportion of wood ashes that would be formed in the open-air cremation process.

Ashes are ground up bone. So they would have had to mix the pulverized bone (which is not created from burning, that just leaves large pieces of charred bone) with the wood ash for your assessment to be accurate. Kola distinguishes between wood ash and body ash (cremains) anyway, you would know this if you read his report.

https://www.holocausthistoricalsociety. ... tions.html

Do you see where he mentions charcoal? That's wood ash. When they're mixed together he says so.

Any calculation of bodies represented to be present by the kola study is an extrapolation based off of an insufficient dataset.

One could shoot high or shoot low and there is insufficient evidence to back or properly refute either position.

Ultimately what I'd like to believe and what are true may be incongruent. Facts being as they may be, the kola study isn't going to be the piece that moves me off of my position. It lacks certainty.

Hell, they couldn't even find a gas chamber there.

If I were to posit a theory, then the graves represent 2 classes of detainees.

Class 1) died in transit.

Class 2) executed by the einsatzgruppen as communist sympathizers, partisan soldiers or communist intelligentsia.

Class 2 makes me uncomfortable a little. It is broad. I can evidence that however. I can also evidence class 2 as being executed. I can also evidence class 2 being referred to with regard to operation Reinhardt camps.

I can't evidence a gas chamber there, I can't produce documents supporting a campaign of genocide unless I bring along assumption and twist words claiming they are code, and I can't find the volume of fuel or cremains to support the thesis that over half a million people met their end there.

You should look at grave #5 btw and think about its size and the composition of the crematory layers. Explain it within the rev context.

The Jews sent to Belzec are described in German documents as elderly, sick, and children, non-employable. Partisans weren't sent there.

Re "code words", you listened to the David Cole interview. Goebbels said Jews were being mass "liquidated" in Globocnik's camps (60% of the population of the Jews in the GG). You really think "liquidated" is coded language? I remember talking to a denier and they were even like, there's not even any documents where they talk about Jews being killed or liquidated is there? I was like, oh sir . . .

[Nessie]

It's not evidenced to have existed, as described, in the correspondent location...

Just to have been used...

Not by bodies, not by physical evidence, but by testimony alone.

The testimony alone is strong corroborating evidence, as the Jewish prisoners agree with the Nazi staff. It is highly unlikely they will collude, so their agreement is significant.

There is physical evidence of numerous mass grave pits containing cremated and decomposed remains.

There is circumstantial evidence of AR, ghettos being cleared, mass transports to the camp, no corresponding mass transports back out and the theft of property. Belzec came under the same management as TII and Sobibor and not coincidentally, all three were demolished, planted over and left guarded, until the guards fled. Those three camps are unique, no other camp exists that was like them. That is very strong circumstantial evidence.

You are being typically dishonest revisionist, by playing down the volume and quality of the evidence, as you ignore your inability to prove what did happen instead of gassings. It is you who has no evidence.

[TlsMS93]

How can human ashes be separated from wood ashes, since the former would obviously fall into the latter and mix in the process? So finding ashes is just a detail. Finding 90 cubic meters of ashes is nothing, considering the greater proportion of wood ashes that would be formed in the open-air cremation process.

Ashes are ground up bone. So they would have had to mix the pulverized bone (which is not created from burning, that just leaves large pieces of charred bone) with the wood ash for your assessment to be accurate. Kola distinguishes between wood ash and body ash (cremains) anyway, you would know this if you read his report.

https://www.holocausthistoricalsociety. ... tions.html

Do you see where he mentions charcoal? That's wood ash. When they're mixed together he says so.

Where in the report does he mention that crematory ashes (which can be either wood or bodies) or body ashes are ground bones? In some graves he distinguishes crematory ashes from human bones (ground or whole?), other times he mentions body ashes, but does not specify which were bones or which were ground.

So that is his excuse? The SS had to grind the bones of 500,000 people and first threw the wood ashes into the graves and then threw the ground bones on top?

This while claiming that wood ashes had several uses for the Germans, ground bones also had and still do today, so it does not solve the problem of both appearing there, it only solves his puzzle of not finding so many ashes.

Is Kola's work far from solving the exterminationists' problem and was it peer-reviewed as is normally expected of scientific works? Maybe that is why they decided to prevent any new investigation with the installation of the museum memorial.

“Exactly why the SS did not empty all the graves and destroy the traces of their crimes is not known”

How curious these Germans are.