The HC Blog 'Auschwitz Index'

[Nessie]

....

All that remains is for you to prove that more than two bodies can be fitted into an opening two feet wide and high.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61650

"In the civilian crematoria there was an introduction opening (muffle) for burning of the corpse, in rare cases two. In the crematoria for the concentration camps there were three introduction openings. The size of the introduction openings at the crematoria for concentration camps is smaller - 70 x 70 cm -, the length is two meters, as opposed to two meters and thirty centimeters in civilian crematoria.
Instead of a rolling car on rails, on which the corpse inside a coffin goes into the introduction opening, in the crematoria for the concentration camps the corpse is inserted on a hand-carried litter without a coffin."

70cm is 2 feet 3 inches. Regrading multiple corpses;

"I mentioned to Sander as an example that in my presence two corpses had been introduced into an introduction opening/muffle instead of a single one"

"In the common crematoria there was only one huge opening (muffle), into which a coffin with one corpse could be introduced without difficulty. In the crematoria of the concentration camps the ovens had not one but three openings"

The openings into each oven were smaller and there were more of them.

[Stubble]

You want to start with Filip Mueller? We can start with how long he was confined to block 11 if you like. This is going to be a complete waste of time for both of us, but, you seem to require that we go through this exercise.

We could also talk about him meeting Himmler if you like. This list can go on, and on.

“June 17th, or 18th, 1942, was a beautiful sunny day. The camp was thoroughly tidied up at great speed. We noticed that the SS were all on edge. Evidently something was in the wind but we had no idea what it could be, except that we suspected that some V.I.P. was due to visit the camp.

“About half-past nine, a high-ranking SS officer in a white uniform appeared at the entrance to the crematorium enclosure, accompanied by two SS officers. It was Himmler himself. He made a careful inspection of everything. We were in the room containing the clothes of persons who had been executed when he came round. At the sight of those blood-stained garments, he turned to our SS chiefs in great surprise and asked why they were in this state. Dissatisfied with the answer he was given, he flew into a rage and thundered: ‘We need the clothing of those accursed dogs for our German people! It’s a waste to gas people in their clothes!’

https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/bib129432

Should be page 158...

Revised edition has Himmler's visit on page 48 and this passage is omitted. You are going to have to look at an original edition.

Like cattle dealers they felt the thighs and calves of men and women who were still alive and selected what they called the best pieces before the victims were executed. The doctors proceeded to cut pieces of still warm flesh from thighs and calves and threw them into waiting receptacles. The muscles of those who had been shot were still working and contracting, making the bucket jump about.

Page 46-47 of eyewitness Auschwitz three years in the gas chambers

Just asking, how many direct witnesses to witchcraft were there at the Salem witch trials? Are you saying that all of them are lying? How can you say this. I should ask you to refute them one by one.

(What a silly exercise)

[Stubble]

Nessie, is my refusal to believe in witches also an argument from incredulity? There were trials after all, with all kinds of evidence and witness testimony. Are you calling witch deniers believers in a logical fallacy?

You wildly misframe my position concerning testimony from engineer. I don't deny it, I don't state that he didn't say what he said. There is no dispute that he mouthed those words. I'm saying that he the statement is false, regardless of whose mouth it came from. That these statements were made to the Soviets do not fill my mind with the idea they were made free of distress and coercion. I am not keen on ignoring the physical evidence of the prints and the extant evidence in favor of a single statement.

So far as other witnesses, of the handful of direct witnesses, yes, I'm calling them each liars. This is demonstrable. They lied, more than once, about various things.

Now, with people like Bomba, I'm not sure he lied. He may have actually believed what he said. He assumed people were gassed after he cut their hair. It's worth mentioning, the 'hair cutting room' is the gas chamber disguised as a shower room in his testimony. Not the steam chambers up the tunnel.

The witness testimony needs to be looked at on a case by case basis, and malice is not to be assumed. That doesn't mean malice is to be ignored man.

With cremation, all I can say is, well bless your heart. I also invite you to do your due diligence in this regard. The burning of fat and its caloric conversion to heat is not at issue. It is not the concern here. It is not the issue. The implication that it burns other bodies is. Dip your finger in some crisco, set it on fire and see if you burn to ash.

Jews also confessed during the Black Death that they had poisoned wells with a substance given to them by rabbis. Of course, today it is accepted that these were confessions under torture, it was the Hoss of the time. But just because there is a camp, crematoria or a death list does not make a case of mass murder because there was an ad hoc trial.

Well poisoning and the black death is another matter, not unlike witch trials. Apparently washing your hands stops plague transmission. Odd that.

[TlsMS93]

....

All that remains is for you to prove that more than two bodies can be fitted into an opening two feet wide and high.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61650

"In the civilian crematoria there was an introduction opening (muffle) for burning of the corpse, in rare cases two. In the crematoria for the concentration camps there were three introduction openings. The size of the introduction openings at the crematoria for concentration camps is smaller - 70 x 70 cm -, the length is two meters, as opposed to two meters and thirty centimeters in civilian crematoria.
Instead of a rolling car on rails, on which the corpse inside a coffin goes into the introduction opening, in the crematoria for the concentration camps the corpse is inserted on a hand-carried litter without a coffin."

70cm is 2 feet 3 inches. Regrading multiple corpses;

"I mentioned to Sander as an example that in my presence two corpses had been introduced into an introduction opening/muffle instead of a single one"

"In the common crematoria there was only one huge opening (muffle), into which a coffin with one corpse could be introduced without difficulty. In the crematoria of the concentration camps the ovens had not one but three openings"

The openings into each oven were smaller and there were more of them.

The number of openings does not change anything, they are triple muffles where many claim that several people could fit in this opening without which the number of 4 million or 1 million would not be reached in the established period and much less the hypothetical (has anyone managed to repeat this?) introduction of several people makes cremation efficient, it is good to revisit the CODOH articles on crematoriums.

[curioussoul]

This says Pressac essentially just rediscovered material that had already been compiled by Jan Sehn (around 1946). I don't recall hearing this previously. This I think devalues Pressac's arguments even more because he relied on documents cherry-picked by the Polish-Soviet Communist investigations.

For sure. That being said, I have a lot more respect for Pressac as a researcher compared to other orthodox Holocaust historians, because he actually made an effort to uncover unknown documents and confront uncomfortable facts, even going so far as to visit the old offices of the Topf company in Erfurt, finding numerous important documents there. He also rediscovered many important witnesses that had been completely forgotten by mainstream historians. Most importantly, perhaps, Henryk Tauber.

It was absolutely crucial for Van Pelt not to mention Pressac anywhere in his plagiarized tome that he published after the Lipstadt trial, because Pressac had at that point essentially reneged on his switch to the orthodoxy, once again making revisionist-adjacent statements in interviews and becoming a pariah among orthodox historians. He died only a few years later which was an absolute shame, because I'm fully convinced he would have become an outright revisionist again, which would have been an enormous blow to the Holocaust orthodoxy. Pressac had been funded by the Serge Klarsfeld Foundation and lauded as the world's premier Holocaust researcher, and a former revisionist to boot. To have him return to revisionism would be a huge embarrassment for mainstream historians.

[curioussoul]

"I mentioned to Sander as an example that in my presence two corpses had been introduced into an introduction opening/muffle instead of a single one"

Hold on, you just dishonestly cut out the last portion of his statement. I'll finish it for you:

"I mentioned to Sander as an example that in my presence two corpses had been introduced into an introduction opening/muffle instead of a single one, the oven could not cope with that load."

In other words, loading two corpses in a single muffle was not feasible. As regards the actual dimensions of the muffle, you would have been able to physically fit 2, or at an absolute maximum 3, corpses stacked on top of each other on the stretcher. But key witnesses absurdly contend that 5 or more corpses were regularly cremated simultaneously per muffle as a standard practice.

[Stubble]

Being generous, nessie may have simply forgotten that part if he was going from memory.

I say this because he is so adamant that testimony be repeated in full verbatim.

Earlier I was accused of misframing and misleading by 'cherry picking' testimony.

Surely he would never do such a thing. Surely he simply forgot the last part of that quote.

[TlsMS93]

"I mentioned to Sander as an example that in my presence two corpses had been introduced into an introduction opening/muffle instead of a single one"

Hold on, you just dishonestly cut out the last portion of his statement. I'll finish it for you:

"I mentioned to Sander as an example that in my presence two corpses had been introduced into an introduction opening/muffle instead of a single one, the oven could not cope with that load."

In other words, loading two corpses in a single muffle was not feasible. As regards the actual dimensions of the muffle, you would have been able to physically fit 2, or at an absolute maximum 3, corpses stacked on top of each other on the stretcher. But key witnesses absurdly contend that 5 or more corpses were regularly cremated simultaneously per muffle as a standard practice.

In other words, the Trinity remains strong and steady. Without space for series of cremations per muffle, without coke and without refurbishing the muffles after 3,000 cremations. Mattogno has even determined the number of hours and days these Kremas were in operation. Everything points to the fact that less than 200,000 ended their days in that camp.

[Nessie]

"I mentioned to Sander as an example that in my presence two corpses had been introduced into an introduction opening/muffle instead of a single one"

Hold on, you just dishonestly cut out the last portion of his statement. I'll finish it for you:

"I mentioned to Sander as an example that in my presence two corpses had been introduced into an introduction opening/muffle instead of a single one, the oven could not cope with that load."

In other words, loading two corpses in a single muffle was not feasible. As regards the actual dimensions of the muffle, you would have been able to physically fit 2, or at an absolute maximum 3, corpses stacked on top of each other on the stretcher. But key witnesses absurdly contend that 5 or more corpses were regularly cremated simultaneously per muffle as a standard practice.

Topf & Sons engineer report;

"Report from Fritz Sanders of 14 September 1942 on "stuffing the individual muffles with several corpses" [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 443]"

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/i ... reiben.jpg

Tauber said;

"The upper part was extended by a metal slide over two metres long. We put five corpses on this: first we put two with the legs towards the furnace and the belly upwards, then two more the other way round but still with the belly upwards, and finally we put the fifth one with the legs towards the furnace and the back upwards."

" At the time when I was working there, the incineration of such a charge (5 corpses in one muffle) took up to an hour and a half, because they were the bodies of very thin people, real skeletons, which burned very slowly."

It does not matter that you do not believe that is possible.

[Nessie]

"I mentioned to Sander as an example that in my presence two corpses had been introduced into an introduction opening/muffle instead of a single one"

Hold on, you just dishonestly cut out the last portion of his statement. I'll finish it for you:

"I mentioned to Sander as an example that in my presence two corpses had been introduced into an introduction opening/muffle instead of a single one, the oven could not cope with that load."

In other words, loading two corpses in a single muffle was not feasible. As regards the actual dimensions of the muffle, you would have been able to physically fit 2, or at an absolute maximum 3, corpses stacked on top of each other on the stretcher. But key witnesses absurdly contend that 5 or more corpses were regularly cremated simultaneously per muffle as a standard practice.

In other words, the Trinity remains strong and steady. Without space for series of cremations per muffle, without coke and without refurbishing the muffles after 3,000 cremations. Mattogno has even determined the number of hours and days these Kremas were in operation. Everything points to the fact that less than 200,000 ended their days in that camp.

Topf & Sons engineer Prufer said;

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61650

"The inner brick lining of the crematory chimneys in Auschwitz already started crumbling after half a year due to the colossal strain to which these crematoria were subject at the concentration camp."

Your holy trinity of arguments from incredulity, prove your reliance on that fallacy. It does not matter that you cannot work out to your personal satisfaction, how the cremations could have been as described. What matters is that they are evidenced to have happened.

[TlsMS93]

Hold on, you just dishonestly cut out the last portion of his statement. I'll finish it for you:



In other words, loading two corpses in a single muffle was not feasible. As regards the actual dimensions of the muffle, you would have been able to physically fit 2, or at an absolute maximum 3, corpses stacked on top of each other on the stretcher. But key witnesses absurdly contend that 5 or more corpses were regularly cremated simultaneously per muffle as a standard practice.

In other words, the Trinity remains strong and steady. Without space for series of cremations per muffle, without coke and without refurbishing the muffles after 3,000 cremations. Mattogno has even determined the number of hours and days these Kremas were in operation. Everything points to the fact that less than 200,000 ended their days in that camp.

Topf & Sons engineer Prufer said;

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61650

"The inner brick lining of the crematory chimneys in Auschwitz already started crumbling after half a year due to the colossal strain to which these crematoria were subject at the concentration camp."

Your holy trinity of arguments from incredulity, prove your reliance on that fallacy. It does not matter that you cannot work out to your personal satisfaction, how the cremations could have been as described. What matters is that they are evidenced to have happened.

Many prisoners in the 1930s confessed to impossible crimes to the Soviets. Show the documents that prove the reform of the Kremas bricks or else keep quiet forever.

[Nessie]

....
Many prisoners in the 1930s confessed to impossible crimes to the Soviets.

The Topf & Sons initially confessed to the Americans, who then handed them over to the Soviets to run that trial. Their testimony is corroborated by camp documents and every other witness who ever worked at the Kremas.

Show the documents that prove the reform of the Kremas bricks or else keep quiet forever.

There is no document that references repairs to the bricks, in the HC blog, Auschwitz index.

[TlsMS93]

....
Many prisoners in the 1930s confessed to impossible crimes to the Soviets.

The Topf & Sons initially confessed to the Americans, who then handed them over to the Soviets to run that trial. Their testimony is corroborated by camp documents and every other witness who ever worked at the Kremas.

Show the documents that prove the reform of the Kremas bricks or else keep quiet forever.

There is no document that references repairs to the bricks, in the HC blog, Auschwitz index.

The furnaces were designed to handle 3,000 cremations per muffle, as previously it was 2,000. Only in Krema I is there documentation of bricks being sent for renovation. If there was no renovation of the largest ones in Birkenau, then there is a theoretical limit for cremations in AB, which corroborates the amount of coke sent until 1943, when only those who died “naturally” in the camp could be cremated.

Let us stop appealing to authority, especially in oppressive regimes, and start trusting documents and practical analyses.

[Nessie]

....
Many prisoners in the 1930s confessed to impossible crimes to the Soviets.

The Topf & Sons initially confessed to the Americans, who then handed them over to the Soviets to run that trial. Their testimony is corroborated by camp documents and every other witness who ever worked at the Kremas.

Show the documents that prove the reform of the Kremas bricks or else keep quiet forever.

There is no document that references repairs to the bricks, in the HC blog, Auschwitz index.

The furnaces were designed to handle 3,000 cremations per muffle, as previously it was 2,000. Only in Krema I is there documentation of bricks being sent for renovation. If there was no renovation of the largest ones in Birkenau, then there is a theoretical limit for cremations in AB, which corroborates the amount of coke sent until 1943, when only those who died “naturally” in the camp could be cremated.

Let us stop appealing to authority, especially in oppressive regimes, and start trusting documents and practical analyses.

I trust corroborative evidence. The "Auschwitz Index" of documents clearly records the preparation for a "special" action or treatment, which needed undressing rooms, barracks to accommodate property, gas chambers and ovens that could cope with fast, multiple corpse cremations. Every single person who worked inside a Krema speaks to mass gassings. The circumstantial evidence is of mass arrivals, selections, those not needed to work being sent to the Kremas, where for them the documentary trail ends and a large part of the camp working sorting property taken from those people.

[TlsMS93]

The Topf & Sons initially confessed to the Americans, who then handed them over to the Soviets to run that trial. Their testimony is corroborated by camp documents and every other witness who ever worked at the Kremas.



There is no document that references repairs to the bricks, in the HC blog, Auschwitz index.

The furnaces were designed to handle 3,000 cremations per muffle, as previously it was 2,000. Only in Krema I is there documentation of bricks being sent for renovation. If there was no renovation of the largest ones in Birkenau, then there is a theoretical limit for cremations in AB, which corroborates the amount of coke sent until 1943, when only those who died “naturally” in the camp could be cremated.

Let us stop appealing to authority, especially in oppressive regimes, and start trusting documents and practical analyses.

I trust corroborative evidence. The "Auschwitz Index" of documents clearly records the preparation for a "special" action or treatment, which needed undressing rooms, barracks to accommodate property, gas chambers and ovens that could cope with fast, multiple corpse cremations. Every single person who worked inside a Krema speaks to mass gassings. The circumstantial evidence is of mass arrivals, selections, those not needed to work being sent to the Kremas, where for them the documentary trail ends and a large part of the camp working sorting property taken from those people.

That 'evacuate' is a "code word" for extermination is argued to be disproven by the word in some cases clearly referring to no-killings, such as the phrase "Evacuation of Jews from Baden and the Palatinate to France" referring to transportation to the concentration camp in Gurs in the French Pyrenees, with Gurs not being one of the alleged "extermination camps". Another example is the phrase "Evacuation of Jews from the Reich area and the Protectorate to Theresienstadt", with Theresienstadt also not being one of the alleged "extermination camps".

The revisionists Jürgen Graf, Thomas Kues, and Carlo Mattogno: "The conclusion we may draw from the analysis of the Korherr report is that the “special treatment of Jews” stood only for the deportation of western Jews (those from the Altreich with Sudetenland, Ostmark and Protectorate) and of the eastern Jews (those from Ostgebiete with Bialystok and General Government with Lemberg) to the East, i.e. beyond the confines of the Greater German Reich. The Jews deported within these confines, in particular the roughly (121,428+8,500=) 130,000 Jews sent to Auschwitz, were not subjected to “special treatment.” Neither were the 69,084 Jews deported from the Altreich, Ostmark, Protectorate, and Slovakia to Nisko and the Lublin district formally subjected to it. We say formally, because they acquired the status of “specially treated” (sonderbehandelt) gradually as they were transited from the Polish ghettos through the various camps. This is also true for the 18,004 Jews deported to Theresienstadt and then from that ghetto to Treblinka. In practice there was a double accounting system: one for the Jews evacuated from individual countries, and one for the Jews who were transited through the above camps and who were counted independently of their origin."

So forget special treatment as a euphemism for your atrocity delusions.