Blobel's Flamethrower and the Hoess Chelmno visit

[Stubble]

I don't even see the rub here. Do you seriously expect everyone to know each hyperspecific piece of minutia you dredge up on the fly?

Just tell me who's lying, which documents (if any) were forged etc, did the meeting actually happen, etc

Is it that you don't know, or you just don't care?

Blobel and Hoess are obviously unreliable witnesses. The document regarding delivery of a flamethrower is not specific and isn't addressed to Blobel.

Personally I don't doubt there was a visit and demonstration. I however don't believe it was 'as advertised'. I may find evidence later that causes me to retract. I'm on the fence about Blobel running a burning operation in general because of the problems with the timeline and his impossible scenarios.

Do I care? Deeply. That's why I research this topic to begin with.

[bombsaway]

I don't even see the rub here. Do you seriously expect everyone to know each hyperspecific piece of minutia you dredge up on the fly?

Just tell me who's lying, which documents (if any) were forged etc, did the meeting actually happen, etc

Is it that you don't know, or you just don't care?

Blobel and Hoess are obviously unreliable witnesses. The document regarding delivery of a flamethrower is not specific and isn't addressed to Blobel.

yeah it is for him

OMW de OMX 1100 7 Tle
To SS Cavalry Brigade
From the PI devices assigned by the head of the Army Armaments Office and...on 11.7.42 are to be provided to SS Sonderkommando BLOBEL.
1 set...parts for small flamethrower...
1 flamethrower refill wagon...
3 safety suits for flamethrower...
3 safety gloves...
3 safety masks...
....
3 nitrogen bottles 10 liters...
1 hydrogen bottle 40 liters...
...
2 barrels flamethrower oil 200 liters...
...
by order
FICK, SS Obersturmbannführer

--

You can take this as a challenge to do the most basic task of history: "analyzing and interpreting evidence to construct narratives about what happened and explain why it happened"

In this case you can answer to how Blobel's flamethrower ended up in Hoess's testimony, with the date in British radio intercept matching the timeline specified

obviously a lot of this is going to be speculative so you should speculate away. orthodox historians have speculated about things like the final solution decision date, and specific details about that decision

[Stubble]

Just tell me who's lying, which documents (if any) were forged etc, did the meeting actually happen, etc

Is it that you don't know, or you just don't care?

Blobel and Hoess are obviously unreliable witnesses. The document regarding delivery of a flamethrower is not specific and isn't addressed to Blobel.

yeah it is for him

OMW de OMX 1100 7 Tle
To SS Cavalry Brigade
From the PI devices assigned by the head of the Army Armaments Office and...on 11.7.42 are to be provided to SS Sonderkommando BLOBEL.
1 set...parts for small flamethrower...
1 flamethrower refill wagon...
3 safety suits for flamethrower...
3 safety gloves...
3 safety masks...
....
3 nitrogen bottles 10 liters...
1 hydrogen bottle 40 liters...
...
2 barrels flamethrower oil 200 liters...
...
by order
FICK, SS Obersturmbannführer

--

You can take this as a challenge to do the most basic task of history: "analyzing and interpreting evidence to construct narratives about what happened and explain why it happened"

In this case you can answer to how Blobel's flamethrower ended up in Hoess's testimony, with the date in British radio intercept matching the timeline specified

obviously a lot of this is going to be speculative so you should speculate away. orthodox historians have speculated about things like the final solution decision date, and specific details about that decision

The part in bold is the 'easy out' here. The radio intercept would have been known to intelligence and would have been run through interrogators.

Another possibility is that Blobel received and used a flame thrower in a demonstration to Hoess, not necessarily reflected in the testimony. For example using the flamethrower to 'touch off' a fuel soaked pyre at a distance. This begs the question why it wasn't mentioned in earlier protocols or testimony. It's a detail that he 'remembered' later, after, you know, being persuaded to.

Another possibility is that the whole thing is mundane and trivial, and that Blobel passed the flame thrower down the chain to whomever asked him to request it for them. Later the radio intercept was shown to Hoess...

Another possibility is that everything is on the up and up, and, Blobel cremated a body in front of Hoess using a flame thrower and 400 liters of fuel oil. That's not exactly the right tool for the job, but, then again, if we are taking him at his word, the body disposal at Babi Yar was inefficient, ineffective and incomplete, so, I guess you do you buddy.

I'll get around to digging in to this later. I need to track down the reply to the intercept and try to determine if delivery was made, and disposition of the unit. Build a 'timetable' of it as it where.

[Wahrheitssucher]

The Modus operandi of revisionism is just hyperfocus on critique at the expense of explanation, narrative, etc.
[blah, blah, blah] …imagine Blobel saw flamethrowers as… [blah, blah, blah] …experiments.

What you are denying here is the FACT that ALL histories — EVERY genuine historiography — includes and welcomes ‘revision’.
Yet here you are rubbishing that when it comes to the holyH holocaust ‘history’.
HolyH believers won’t permit ANY ‘revision’ or even healthy skepticism of its core claims. Which proves their belief is NOT A GENUINE HISTORY.

Plus, here you are deceiving when you claim revisionists of the holyH ‘mass-gassing’ mythology do not provide “…explanation, narrative, etc.”. That is either a lie or a self-deception.

Your issue is merely that you don’t like the explanations and alternative narratives being given by revisionists. And believers don’t like them precisely because they so devastatingly bust the false parts of the cultish, holyH belief-system.

As here with the ridiculous ‘confession’ that Blobel experimented with a flamethrower to erase all trace of hundreds of thousands of corpses.

Only a deeply deluded and cultish true-believer would insist upon the credibility of this nonsensical detail. Herr Stubble explained why with his analogy of witches on flying broomsticks.

Think of the well-documented Salem Witch trials and finally understand.
Or… remain in stubborn, wilful denial.

[bombsaway]

The part in bold is the 'easy out' here. The radio intercept would have been known to intelligence and would have been run through interrogators.

Another possibility is that Blobel received and used a flame thrower in a demonstration to Hoess, not necessarily reflected in the testimony. For example using the flamethrower to 'touch off' a fuel soaked pyre at a distance. This begs the question why it wasn't mentioned in earlier protocols or testimony. It's a detail that he 'remembered' later, after, you know, being persuaded to.

Another possibility is that the whole thing is mundane and trivial, and that Blobel passed the flame thrower down the chain to whomever asked him to request it for them. Later the radio intercept was shown to Hoess...

Another possibility is that everything is on the up and up, and, Blobel cremated a body in front of Hoess using a flame thrower and 400 liters of fuel oil. That's not exactly the right tool for the job, but, then again, if we are taking him at his word, the body disposal at Babi Yar was inefficient, ineffective and incomplete, so, I guess you do you buddy.

I'll get around to digging in to this later. I need to track down the reply to the intercept and try to determine if delivery was made, and disposition of the unit. Build a 'timetable' of it as it where.

This is not really sufficient and still feels like there's a lot of prevarication going on. Nevertheless I have to things to work on and I congratulate you on being the first revisionist here to try to narrative build around the incident.

It seems like it's not part of your theory that the documents are fabricated, so we indeed do see that Hoess visited Blobel during that time, and on the same trip 'inspected the field ovens Aktion Reinhard"

Travel permit for passenger car from Au. to Litzmannstadt [Łódź] and
back for inspecting the experimental station for field ovens Aktion Reinhard
is granted herewith for 16 Sept. [19]42.

So the trip DID happen, and it was about destruction of material. We see that furnaces document and also here

With reference to the discussion of SS-Standartenführer Blobel with the firm of Schriever & Co., Hannover, Bürgermeister Fink-Strasse, delivery should be made of the ball mill already reserved there for grinding substances for the Auschwitz concentration camp.

In additional documents we see that the SK Kulmhof was also interested in this mill

To the Elder of the Jews
Litzmannstadt
Ghetto.
Letter Nr. 10195027/2/Lu/R 16.7.1942.

Subject: Machines in the Ghetto.

I ask you to find out immediately if inside the ghetto there is a bone mill, either motor-operated or hand operated.

By order:
[Signature Ribbe]

The Sonderkommando Kulmhof is interested in this mill.

The question is not really about whether that mill was really used, but what Hoess's trip plausibly was about. Those facts are crucial for understanding why he saw brought up that detail.

Hoess's testimony also does not state he literally saw Blobel conducting these body destruction experiments, but rather that he at least had heard about them. It seems like your interpretation is converging towards body destruction indeed going on near Litzmandstadt, though this admittedly in and of itself doesn't prove any extermination efforts at Auschwitz. Lots of people were dying, they needed to burn people outside. This doesn't look good, and particularly the "bone mill" seems to allude to not just burning bodies, but destroying them for cover up purposes. Nevertheless we can move on if you accept these things and discuss Hoess's statement in light of that.

[Stubble]

I will return to this thread after I do some digging. That will be after I finish a captioning project on 'The Holocaust Revisited'. I am currently trimming in the time stamps on part 1. The project is proving to be more complicated that I had originally thought it would be.

Before I actually weigh in on this series of documentation and narrative you present, there is a lot of background analysis i need to conduct.

My current working hypothesis is that the mass graves of the dead from attrition in the ghettos, along with victims of decimations and antipartisan actions, were a health hazard. That Hoess had a situation with ground water contamination. And that Hoess may have been ordered to go observe Blobel's efforts to perform field cremations so he could implement a hygienic field cremation project to deal with the typhus and attrition victims contained in mass graves at Auschwitz.

Regarding the use of a bone crusher, I posit that this was to maximize the usable excavated grave space, not an effort to conceal anything. Even a cremated body takes up space, and, digging more holes isn't exactly the best use of manpower if there is a way to minimize the impact of the bodies on the available space.

This hypothesis is of course subject to edit and revision as more information is gathered and integrated.

[Wetzelrad]

I won't comment on the larger debate, such that it is, but in the interest of truth I volunteer this evidence of flamethrowers being used for cremation as decontamination. This happened at Dresden in 1945.

Spoiler

In May 1945, a British sergeant reportedly said:

They burned bodies in a great heap in the center of the city, but the most effective way, for sanitary reasons, was to take flamethrowers and burn the dead as they lay in the ruins. They would just turn the flamethrowers into the houses, burn the dead and then close off the entire area.

Text: https://old.fpp.co.uk/History/General/D ... 50545.html
PDF: https://306bg.us/stars/ss5may45.pdf

Kurt Vonnegut also said as much, from personal experience:

Our job, it was explained, was to wade into the shambles and bring forth the remains. Encouraged by cuffing and guttural abuse, wade in we did. We did exactly that, for the floor was covered with an unsavory broth from burst water mains and viscera.

[...] women and children. The shelter I have described and innumerable others like it were filled with them. We had to exhume their bodies and carry them to mass funeral pyres in the parks -- so I know. The funeral pyre technique was abandoned when it became apparent how great was the toll. There was not enough labor to do it nicely, so a man with a flamethrower was sent down instead, and he cremated them where they lay.

Armageddon in Retrospect by Kurt Vonnegut, p.40

Vonnegut told essentially the same story in his novel Slaughterhouse-Five, only adding that the unsanitary conditions killed one of the worker characters before they switched to this flamethrower method (pp.189-190).

A German survivor named Frau Canzler reported this memory of the cremations at Dresden's Altmarkt:

All the centre of the city was cordoned off and the dead burnt on grids, set on fire by army flamethrowers. For weeks, men passed our house with carts, with wooden boxes, with cardboard boxes, with paper parcels, with suitcases — all containing human remains they had found. They were taking them to this crematorium.

The Devil's Tinderbox by Alexander McKee, p.246

It is difficult to say whether this is something she actually witnessed or hearsay. Photos and accounts support that these pyres used wood, straw, and petrol poured over the top, not flamethrowers. Furthermore, another survivor who did watch the burnings in-person claimed the bodies were not totally rendered to ashes:

Some were completely carbonized and buried in this pyre, but nevertheless they were all burnt here because of the danger of an epidemic. In any case, what was left of them was hardly recognizable.

The Devil's Tinderbox by Alexander McKee, p.248

I judge that it's possible flamethrowers were used in this way, especially in combination with the other fuels.

Note that all these reports discussed using flamethrowers for sanitary reasons. You will have to use your own judgement as to whether this has any parallels with the alleged 1005 cremations.

[bombsaway]

"Hoess may have been ordered to go observe Blobel's efforts to perform field cremations so he could implement a hygienic field cremation project to deal with the typhus and attrition victims contained in mass graves at Auschwitz."

this interpretation is acceptable to me as we move forward, congratulations again for being the only poster to get this far. It is however a definitive break from Mattogno, who knew all the documents I've mentioned, but still strongly believed the visit had nothing to do with corpse incineration.

viewtopic.php?p=24272#p24272

His justification for this, apparently is in the TECOAR book. I glanced through it but couldn't find any such rationalization.

I'll follow up a in few days in a new thread, I'm a bit busy now. Feel free to add details as you see fit.

[Stubble]

'His justification for this, apparently is in the TECOAR book. I glanced through it but couldn't find any such rationalization.'

From page 1192-1216ish. He also references his work 'Chelmno'.

He raises a lot of vaid points about the timeline.

My initial assessment, based on a keyhole view, of a couple of documents, seems to be incorrect. If you don't think too hard and you fail to spot the problems with the chronology, parts of the orthodox narrative here, do seem to fit together and make sense. It is only when you look at the broader picture and tug at the threads that the orthodox telling here falls apart.

[bombsaway]

So the documents are fabricated? Or my interpretation was incorrect?

[Stubble]

So the documents are fabricated? Or my interpretation was incorrect?

Oversimplified is the forgiving phrase. I'll put a post together after I finish reading. Again, the biggest problem here is the chronology.

[bombsaway]

I'll hear you out. You've got to tell me what happened though, or what you think happened, just like I did in the Kula thread (where I speculated with a lot of detail about how the mechanism may have worked). Now you must do the same.

[Hans]

fyi
Julius Bauer, interrogation of 4./5.7.1963:

"I accompanied Blobel as his driver on practically all of his official trips connected with this assignment, and in the process I saw a great many things. However, Blobel only spoke to me about the content of his assignment after I had already witnessed the first events myself. After he had been with me at IV B4 for the first time, Blobel traveled from Berlin to Litzmannstadt. There he took up permanent quarters at the ‘General Litzmann’ Hotel. From there we drove to Kulmhof. There Blobel conducted experiments in burning corpses. I saw these myself. He was assisted in this by Tempel. Tempel had technical experience. I still remember that Blobel had a kind of burner or flamethrower with which he wanted to burn the corpses. However, the experiments failed. During these investigations Blobel told me that he had been an engineer officer and that he believed cremating corpses by means of flamethrowers ought to be possible after all. During these experiments I learned details about Blobel’s assignment, so that it was no longer a secret to me. ... The cremation experiments using burners were unsuccessful. Later, the cremation of corpses was then carried out by means of pyres. I believe that he got the idea from Bothmann. I also believe that Bothmann persuaded him to abandon the experiments with the flamethrower. During this period — summer 1942 — we traveled an enormous amount. We were in Litzmannstadt-Kulmhof, Berlin (RSHA), Warsaw, Lublin, Amsterdam, and Auschwitz. In 1943 we were also in Lemberg."