Where'd They Go? (An inverted question from exterminationists)

[Wahrheitssucher]

According to the same "investigators" who claimed 1.7M killed at Majdanek.

…,Łukaszkiewicz did exhume the ground at Treblinka – and found some evidence.

Where is that alleged “evidence’ now?

…volumes of ash mixed in with sand, with some graves as deep as 6 meters?
Are the photos a hoax?

Which photos? Are you claiming there exists “photos” of the required “volumes of ash” for 750,000 ‘missing jooze’?

…Colls and colleagues have published more comprehensive findings since. They identified more extensive and sizeable graves at Treblinka, confirming the original findings of Łukaszkiewicz. …Who is hoaxing here?

The one’s who are claiming to have the evidence but not showing it. They are the ones doing the “hoaxing” here.

I am in favour of a complete excavation of Treblinka, especially under the ugly concrete soviet memorial. Allow a dispassionate analysis with modern technology.

That is precisely what skeptics of the legally-protected and enforced holyH narrative want.
Q. Who is preventing that from happening?
A. The hoaxers.
Colls is not an impartial investigator. She is a participant in the hoax.

Given that deniers cannot… blah, blah, blah-dee blah, blah…

The fact that you call skeptics and revisionists by the deceitful pejorative ‘deniers’, shows you are NOT approaching this honestly or sincerely.

[Archie]

Łukaszkiewicz's theoretical calculation was based on coke capacity at Majdanek. They never claimed to have exhumed anything at Majdanek to confirm it. It's not like anybody took those figures seriously; Raul Hilberg had estimated total of 50k by the 50s and 60s.

You are mistaken. They did claim to have excavated pits and graves at Majdanek.

In other pits a large number of completely decayed corpses and skeletons were found. In a number of pits a vast quantity of bones was found.

To conceal the gigantic dimensions of their wholesale massacre of human beings, the Hitler fiends buried the ashes in pits and trenches, scattered them over a large part of the camp vegetable plots, and, mixing the ashes with dung, used them as manure for the fields.

Within the precincts of the "Extermination Camp" the Committee found over one thousand three hundred and fifty cubic metres of compost consisting of dung, the ashes of incinerated corpses and small human bones.

The Hitlerites resorted to the grinding up of small bones in a special "mill."

https://www.jewishgen.org/forgottencamp ... eport.html

And as I already posted, they claimed there was so much ash they were shipping it back to Germany for industrial purposes.

Hilberg went with a lower number because he knew the number of Jews sent to Majdanek was not large and he didn't pay any attention to the possibility of Gentile exterminations. He evidently didn't take the Majdanek commission very seriously, and I believe Reitlinger said that explicitly. Yet you think we should take the Communists at their word on Treblinka.

However, Łukaszkiewicz did exhume the ground at Treblinka – and found some evidence. Do you believe the hundreds of men involved were all pretending to have volumes of ash mixed in with sand, with some graves as deep as 6 meters? Are the photos a hoax?

They have been caught multiple times doing fraudulent forensic investigations. The Soviet Katyn investigation is universally agreed to have been a fraud. USSR-54 claims 11,000 bodies were exhumed. They merely copied that number from German propaganda material. The actual number of bodies was around 4,400. So they can't even count whole bodies reliably. They claimed that the state of decay of the bodies indicated that they could not have been killed in 1940 but in mid to late 1941 which was of course untrue. The Majdanek investigation has implicitly been conceded to have been a fraud as well, although the HC types will try to claim, as you have, that the preposterous figures were honest "miscalculations" rather than lies.

I'm not going to accept it on Communist authority that over 1.5M were killed at the AR camps. Based on vague claims of "ash."

"Are the photos a hoax?" What photos? I asked you post photos and you didn't.

[Stubble]

According to the same "investigators" who claimed 1.7M killed at Majdanek.

Łukaszkiewicz's theoretical calculation was based on coke capacity at Majdanek. They never claimed to have exhumed anything at Majdanek to confirm it. It's not like anybody took those figures seriously; Raul Hilberg had estimated total of 50k by the 50s and 60s.

However, Łukaszkiewicz did exhume the ground at Treblinka – and found some evidence. Do you believe the hundreds of men involved were all pretending to have volumes of ash mixed in with sand, with some graves as deep as 6 meters? Are the photos a hoax?

So far the most resolved published study is from Colls, and that basically confirms Krege.

I mean, she did find a tooth at the site, but, that was a sharks tooth, indicating the soil hadn't been disturbed in millenia, and she did find some human remains, in a cemetery (shocking).

You’re stuck in 2012. I'm well aware of that silly television with the shark tooth that Colls took part in. I am not a fan of pop-science garbage. However, Colls and colleagues have published more comprehensive findings since. They identified more extensive and sizeable graves at Treblinka, confirming the original findings of Łukaszkiewicz. In contrast, the “Krege Report” was never published, and does not exist. Who is hoaxing here?

I am in favour of a complete excavation of Treblinka, especially under the ugly concrete soviet memorial. Allow a dispassionate analysis with modern technology. Given that deniers cannot explain where the ~900k Treblinka 'transit camp' jews went, the most logical conclusion is they were killed. If people are skeptical, I agree, start digging!

I beg your pardon, I'm not stuck in 2012, and I'm referring to the published thesis and referring to to the GPR/LIDAR study specifically.

RE: Krege is unpublished. Yes, I know. The Colls study still largely confirms what he found.

I do notice you leave hanging and do not address the 13 apostles of Treblinka.

For the Colls conversation, you can see one of the many threads where it is covered. I forget the names of all of the threads. My 'Treblinka Murder Mill' thread comes to mind, as does Fanger's 'Nessie Logic' thread.

Again, if you have proof, actual proof, of any of the alleged mass graves, make some money and show the world, go to This is About Science.

Until such proof is provided, I will ask again, where'd they go?

[mengelemyth]

Łukaszkiewicz's theoretical calculation was based on coke capacity at Majdanek. They never claimed to have exhumed anything at Majdanek to confirm it. It's not like anybody took those figures seriously; Raul Hilberg had estimated total of 50k by the 50s and 60s.

You are mistaken. They did claim to have excavated pits and graves at Majdanek.

Read my original quote though. Did they claim to find ash in a volume commensurate with the over-the-top Soviet Majdanek death toll? I don't actually know.

I'm not going to accept it on Communist authority that over 1.5M were killed at the AR camps. Based on vague claims of "ash."

We don't have to accept the Soviets word on anything. We can look at German transport records, find out that vast number of Jews were sent to these camps... never to be seen again, and not transported further east.

"Are the photos a hoax?" What photos? I asked you post photos and you didn't.

I was under the impression that this was one such photo taken at Treblinka? https://d4x2bmwl8gzlim.archive.is/isYhl ... 48e17e.jpg

[mengelemyth]

RE: Krege is unpublished. Yes, I know. The Colls study still largely confirms what he found.

I do notice you leave hanging and do not address the 13 apostles of Treblinka.

For the Colls conversation, you can see one of the many threads where it is covered. I forget the names of all of the threads. My 'Treblinka Murder Mill' thread comes to mind, as does Fanger's 'Nessie Logic' thread.

Hunt cited Colls more recent findings at the time of his 'end of the line' post: https://archive.is/isYhl

Certainly looks like they found large mass graves. Unless you believe dozens of different team members were in on a conspiracy theory to hoax this? I fully support revisionists in their calls to dig up Treblinka to get a better understanding here.

Re: the "13 apostles" argument not 'finding' mass graves. investigators reported finding large areas of human ash/remains mixed in with sand.

Copied from a 2 year old post from Nessie:

The 1945 Polish investigation did not have the archaeological expertise, equipment, time or resources, to excavate the site in such a way, they could identify what was ground that had never been dug into, what had been dug into and contained remains and what was likely caused by the grave robbers. Instead, they reported what they did find, which is an area of 2 hectares, that smelled and was littered with decomposing and cremated remains, at one point which went 7m deep before they stopped finding remains. They reported finding no mass graves, meaning they found no pits full of corpses, which indicated the extent to which the Nazis went, to exhume and cremate. That corroborated the witness claims about months of burning and pyres.

Certainly not mass graves of bodies, but certainly consistent with masses of cremated human remains.

We also have German reports on transports of a huge volume of Jews to Treblinka. They were not transited further. They were never seen again.

[Stubble]

Dude, the grave space is a fucking thimble.

Did people die during ww2? Yes. Did people die at the Bug River Camps? Yes, but not in numbers sufficient for and congruent with the claim.

G51, G52, G53 and G54 are in the right place to be mass graves. That's the extent of burial space in the extermination area. There is also the small pit by the lazerette, but again, even including it, the grave space is a thimble.

You also ignore the findings of the excavations at Sobibor, and Kola's study of some of the Bug River sites. Even Kola's flawed study leaves us with space for roughly 1/10th of the claim at these sites. When you look at the excavations at Sobibor it gets worse for the exterminationists, which is good news, there are fewer dead jews than expected at these sites.

This leads me to again ask, where did they go. So, how about it, where did they go?

Oh, and we have a thread on the Auschwitz Album that may be worth a read.

[Archie]

Read my original quote though. Did they claim to find ash in a volume commensurate with the over-the-top Soviet Majdanek death toll? I don't actually know.

I just showed you that they claimed to have excavated pits and graves and reported on finding lots of ash and so forth. Their reports are propagandistic and sensational in style and are not always technically precise but this is also true of the Treblinka material.

We don't have to accept the Soviets word on anything. We can look at German transport records, find out that vast number of Jews were sent to these camps... never to be seen again, and not transported further east.

You claimed they "they" found 215,000 square feet of graves filled with human remains. Who's "they"? It's the Communists. If we can't independently verify that data, then you're relying on the Communists.

And, no, you can't use transport records as a substitute for physical evidence. Transport records do not prove anyone was killed. You know the physical evidence is lacking and you are pivoting to demanding proof of survival. If that many people were killed at Treblinka, the proof would be right there in the ground, and you would not need to try to back into it indirectly.

I was under the impression that this was one such photo taken at Treblinka? https://d4x2bmwl8gzlim.archive.is/isYhl ... 48e17e.jpg

That is not even close to commensurate with what you are claiming. I can show you more remains than that at Buchenwald or Belsen.

[mengelemyth]

Stubble, I don't "ignore" excavations at Sobibor, I simply haven't read much about them. I am not here as an expert on the holocaust. I am somebody who finds small elements of revisionism compelling (e.g. myths about individual figures).

I don't agree with you that the areas found by Colls are a 'thimble'. She identified one pit that is 26 by 17 metres. As I stressed, it is also impossible to assess areas underneath the memorials. That needs to happen for a proper assessment.

Archie, I am only going by what Hunt referred to here: https://archive.is/isYhl

You may be correct these were soviet led investigations. In which case, I agree, we should be skeptical. As I noted, Colls has at least done something. Poland needs to clear the way for a full scientific investigation of the ground.

In addition, quite a few germans who worked at Treblinka have admitted to mass exterminations occurring. I don't think it's plausible that they were all simply coerced. Many were on trial and could've set the record straight if there were no mass exterminations. Instead, they only downplayed their own role or responsibility.

[Stubble]

You know, I am developing a bit of animus that I let shine through even when talking to someone new. I'll work on toning that down.

Here is some reading on Sobibor. The thing is, there is a pattern that emerges when you look at the claims vs the evidence. If Treblinka turned out to be even 30% of the claim, it would be an outlier.

viewtopic.php?t=628

So far as what Colls found goes, examine carefully how it is couched. She, not unlike the apostles, actually found no mass graves. The only pits in the correct place matching where the witnesses said there were mass graves are at the lazerette, and G51, G52, G53 and G54. That's a thimble.

With Hunt's 'recantation' it's all been addressed, he has even addressed it himself. I suppose it could be collated into a thread at some point. That might be handy to point at when this inevitably cones up again in the future.

I'll try my best to remember that people don't know what they don't know. There was a time, and it doesn't seem all that long ago, when I bought the whole yarn, end to end, without question.

In your original post you had alluded to a level of familiarity that I considered to be in the 'advanced' category. I'll try to mentally move you over to 'novice'.

[mengelemyth]

Stubble, it's fine if you find my comments irritating from time to time. I'm not going to take it personally if you want to point out some area of knowledge I am missing.

Also, Archie/Stubble, regarding my comment above about the Treblinka investigation. Roberto Muehlenkamp says that polish investigations occurred separately from Soviet ones: https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... camps.html

Quoting Muehlenkamp (from the comment section):

The Soviets were not involved in the postwar Polish investigations from whose reports I quote, for all I know. Let alone in more recent archaeological investigations, which (along with much other evidence, including without limitation the depositions before West German courts of members of the SS staff and the utter lack of evidence supporting the "Revisionist" transit camp theory) essentially corroborate the postwar finds of Polish criminal investigators

So I'd need to get familiar with what the Poles reported vs what the Soviets reported...?

Thanks Stubble, I will need to read more on the sources you have provided. I see there are other threads on this forum about Kola, which I have started reading viewtopic.php?t=107

[Stubble]

Archie also kindly started this thread about the 'Polish' investigations.

viewtopic.php?t=218

PilgrimOfDark has been compiling and contrasting all of the various reports, and the root and stem of the 'Polish' investigations appears to be SMERSH and the NKVD. Make of that what you will.

[Archie]

The Poles claimed 4M killed at Auschwitz through 1990. The fraudulent Majdanek commission was a joint Soviet-Polish endeavor.

"Muehlenkamp says..." Muehlenkamp spouts a lot of nonsense. What else is new?

[pilgrimofdark]

PilgrimOfDark has been compiling and contrasting all of the various reports, and the root and stem of the 'Polish' investigations appears to be SMERSH and the NKVD. Make of that what you will.

SMERSH's investigation was the smallest and consisted of some interrogations of suspected Ukrainian guards at Treblinka. They also did a couple interrogations relating to Majdanek.

I tried to quantify the overlap between the 1944 Soviet and 1945 Polish investigations of Treblinka here, with links to the reports.

viewtopic.php?p=20512#p20512

A bit more of an overview of Polish "independence" from the Soviets from 1944-1955 is here, summarized mostly from the book Poland's Holocaust.

viewtopic.php?p=23335#p23335

The authors of Justice Behind the Iron Curtain argue that Polish trials of Nazis were generally more fair than Polish trials of former Home Army/government-in-exile defendants, which were far more politically-motivated and Soviet influenced.

There's also a dissertation Projects of Punishment in Postwar Poland: War Criminals, Collaborators, Traitors, and the (Re)Construction of the Nation that I haven't read yet, but covers the Main Commission to Investigate German War Crimes in Poland.

"Them: Stalin's Polish puppets contains interviews with some of the rulers of Poland in the immediate postwar period, including Jakub Berman, brother of Adolf Berman. The Poles didn't find their existence under Soviet terror totalitarianism met the expected definition of "independence."

A lot more work could be done tracing this network, maybe using a similar approach as Sara Berger or Dick de Mildt in their works on T-4/Reinhardt. There also seems to be some overlap between the Soviet/Polish investigations and (what became) the Jewish Historical Institute.

[Stubble]

Dude, why do those threads get, no love. I wish I could contribute to them, unfortunately, most of what I would say would just be static, noise and affirmation.

It's good work to be sure, unfortunately, well past my simple bumblings in the 't' series looking for these missing persons.

[borjastick]

We also have German reports on transports of a huge volume of Jews to Treblinka. They were not transited further. They were never seen again.

I smell chestnuts, old smelly chestnuts.