Jeffrey Epstein revisionism

[mengelemyth]

[Mod note: Split from viewtopic.php?t=718 as the discussion has veered away from the Holocaust connection and more into Epstein revisionism]

I remember seeing a documentary on the Palm Beach charges and I found it to be absolutely damning. Tracey seems to be ignoring that people often get charges that are far less than what they are actually guilty of.

To be fair to Tracey, he accepts that Epstein received sexual massages for cash with teen girls, between 2002 and 2005.

Tracey's point is that Epstein's plea deal wasn't a result of leniency, but practically. A trial against Epstein was likely to fail (according to state and federal prosecutors). They had no strong witnesses willing to testify; many girls admitted to telling Epstein they were 18. Most were reluctant to testify; some were embarrassed and didn't want their parents to find out. Many girls simply liked Epstein. This is detailed in the 2020 OPR report, which journalists ignore for the most part, in favour of the argument that he just 'got off' because he was wealthy.

Epstein's lawyers had gathered the girls social media posts about sex and shoplifting. They found their criminal records. Many of them were working as strippers prior to meeting Epstein. Prosecutors felt these young women would simply collapse under cross examination and Epstein would be acquitted. It's quite possible, given Florida was prosecuting teen prostitutes at the time.

The Epstein mythology isn't about his own offending with underage girls. The mythology is that he was involving 'the elites'. But none of the girls from the original palm beach police case ever alleged the involvement of other men, cameras, or blackmail.

These more sordid allegations only arose years later... which should be a red flag given his 2019 arrest was for offending in the same period (2002 - 2005)

Allegations about Epstein mutated beginning in 2010 all the way up until his 2019 arrest. Most of this was due to one accuser – Virginia Giuffre, a fabulist and perjurer. In 2011, she was looking for a book deal. A DailyMail journalist told her to throw in the name of Alan Dershowitz into her memoir, writing "we think he's a pedo although no evidence, you probably met him". A few years later, Giuffre files a lawsuit claiming she was raped by Dershowitz on 6 occasions. After 8 years of describing these rapes in graphic detail, she dropped the whole thing in 2022 and claims she made a "mistake" in identifying him.

In her 2011 FBI interview, Giuffre could not recall ever having sex with Andrew on Epstein island, but by 2015 she suddenly has full recall of an orgy with 8 underage girls. You can find dozens of these major changes in her story. It's on Irene Zisblatt's level.

The media have just run with all of Giuffre's absurd allegations and it snowballed into a massive hysteria. The real Epstein story is a lot more boring. After Epstein's 2008 conviction he made sure to only date models over the age of 18. Some of these women are now claiming they were 'trafficked', despite being in his orbit for 8 years while he paid all their expenses, and have filed lawsuits against Bank of America for "enabling" this abuse. It's a manufactured mass hysteria that has enabled a ~1 billion wealth extraction industry, with 30% to lawyers.

[mengelemyth]

Speaking of Epstein, here's Mitch Webber, who is on the board of the United States Holocaust Memorial Council, emailing Jeffrey Epstein on the legality of transporting minors for sex:

The Webber/Epstein email is not as nefarious as you think.

This email was sent in August, 2006, when Epstein had already been charged at the state level for prostitution, and authorities were investigating potential federal trafficking charges.

Mitch Webber was a low level legal assistant to one of Epstein's lawyers. He was pinging his lawyers to look into various federal laws to defend himself.

Epstein was not asking Webber to find him places where he could have sexual contact with underage girls. In fact, even the lawyers of Epstein accusers concede there isn't good evidence that Epstein engaged in sexual activity with an underage girl after his 2008 conviction. It seems most of the corroborating evidence indicates his last offending was 2005.

[Wahrheitssucher]

…Epstein received sexual massages for cash with teen girls, between 2002 and 2005.

…many girls admitted to telling Epstein they were 18.

…Many girls simply liked Epstein.

…The Epstein mythology isn't about his own offending with underage girls. The mythology is that he was involving 'the elites'. But none of the girls from the original palm beach police case ever alleged the involvement of other men, cameras, or blackmail.

These more sordid allegations only arose years later... which should be a red flag

…The media have just run with all of Giuffre's absurd allegations and it snowballed into a massive hysteria. The real Epstein story is a lot more boring.

After Epstein's 2008 conviction he made sure to only date models over the age of 18…

Ho-hum
So…
Nothing there from MM about Epstein’s ‘honeypot’ blackmail operation of the wealthy, powerful and influential.

Nothing there concerning the voluminous evidence he was a jooish Mossad agent working for Israhell.

Nothing there about the strange details of his supposed ‘suicide’while in a US prison.

Just weak arguments about his actual sexual activity being … meh… not that interesting nor even particularly ‘immoral’.

This appears to fit the profile of a ‘misinformation merchant’ as was once described here: viewtopic.php?p=21636#p21636

[Wetzelrad]

The Epstein mythology isn't about his own offending with underage girls. The mythology is that he was involving 'the elites'. But none of the girls from the original palm beach police case ever alleged the involvement of other men, cameras, or blackmail.

These more sordid allegations only arose years later... which should be a red flag given his 2019 arrest was for offending in the same period (2002 - 2005)

Allegations about Epstein mutated beginning in 2010 all the way up until his 2019 arrest. Most of this was due to one accuser – Virginia Giuffre, a fabulist and perjurer.

This seems to accurately paraphrase Tracey's arguments, but what is the evidence for this claim? Before following Tracey, I did not have the impression that Virginia Giuffre was so important to Epstein's reputation. Most of what I had absorbed on this topic had never even mentioned her name, such that I didn't know it. As one obvious example of a prominent Epstein conspiracy theorist, Whitney Webb mentioned Giuffre in only one of her 70 articles on UR:
https://www.unz.com/?s=virginia+giuffre ... ion=Search

It wasn't until I was exposed to Tracey's repeated posts about Giuffre that I learned anything about her at all. Does he explain somewhere why she deserves to be treated as the lynchpin? For example, has it been demonstrated that other witnesses were copying her claims? Or has Tracey merely chosen to target her as the most convenient bogeyman?

[Wahrheitssucher]

…The Epstein mythology…

…But none of the girls from the original palm beach police case ever alleged the involvement of other men, cameras, or blackmail…

This seems to accurately paraphrase Tracey's arguments, but what is the evidence for this claim?
…Most of what I had absorbed on this topic had never even mentioned her [Virginia Giuffre‘s] name, such that I didn't know it… [snip]

Who cares?

Virginia Giuffre was one of many who were paid for sex (i.e. a prostitute).
That is NOT the important thing here.

A Mossad blackmail operation FOR ZIONIST INTERESTS in order to have leverage over the rich and powerful is.

(Sheesh! )

[mengelemyth]

The claim that Epstein was engaging in a blackmail operation using underage girls is weak.

That claim started with Virginia Giuffre in the 2010s, who was making allegation about experiences in the early 2000s. Her claim of 'hidden cameras' filming her was absent in her original FBI testimony. None of the ~40 girls in the original palm beach police case ever alleged the involvement of other men, blackmail or tapes... it was literally just Epstein getting off while they gave him a massage.

Then in 2016, Sarah Ransome came out of the woodwork. She was a 22 year old prostitute when she met Epstein in 2006. She claimed she actually made copies of the tapes Virginia was talking about, showing Trump, Clinton, Branson and Prince Andrew with girls.. and then 3 years later she admits she made the whole thing up. But by then the whole thing had already taken off, and it was away.

It's been a decade of Giuffre's original claim mutating. Lots of others contributed to this with their own hearsay story or rumours. Nobody can be bothered to trace through the source material and see it's all a bit illogical. People point to a handful of emails in the files and project what they want onto them (which is going to happen when you have millions of emails). There's no real smoking gun though.

That said, Epstein obviously had 'dirt' on people. He was a high profile billionaire. There's no evidence of a mass blackmail operation in which he used underage girls for that purpose. As soon as he started blackmailing, word would spread and everybody would've avoided him. That's just not how you keep friends.

As for Epstein as an 'intelligence' agent? There's a video of Epstein not knowing how to right click to save a photo on his computer. Some real high level Israeli intelligence officer. Riiight.

Some believe that Epstein, post his first conviction, might've used some of the older Russian women (who were 18-25) to seduce men and get dirt on them. I open to being convinced of this, but I haven't seen any strong evidence. This is a lot more believable, however, because these women knew Epstein was a convicted sex offender, and still pursued relationships with him. This suggests they have a greater willingness to do unethical things for money. That said, no smoking gun there.

[mengelemyth]

As one obvious example of a prominent Epstein conspiracy theorist, Whitney Webb mentioned Giuffre in only one of her 70 articles on UR. It wasn't until I was exposed to Tracey's repeated posts about Giuffre that I learned anything about her at all.

Refer to my post above first. Whitney Webb does not read much material and has huge gaps in her knowledge. The fact she doesn't refer to Giuffre is itself a huge red flag. The only reason the Epstein 'intelligence' theory was posited in the first place traces back to Giuffre.

Giuffre was was the one who claimed Epstein filmed her, and later floated theories of blackmail. It was then further developed into a full scale theory about blackmail operation on social media. Then when Epstein died, somebody in the Trump White House (most likely Steve Bannon) told the DailyBeast a hearsay story about Alexander Acosta allegedly saying that Epstein "belonged to intelligence".

One person set off the satanic panic with her allegations, it's not hard for me to accept that one Virginia Giuffre could contaminate the field and encourage others to posit theories of an intelligence operation... there are actually very few women involved with Epstein who have made allegations of blackmail/cameras (Virginia, and Sarah Ransome, who are both proven fabulists).

[Archie]

Let's stick to factual discussion of Epstein. Please don't share your personal opinions on pedophilia/hebephilia/ephebophilia, and all of that, as all three of those are generally illegal in the United States.

[Archie]

To be fair to Tracey, he accepts that Epstein received sexual massages for cash with teen girls, between 2002 and 2005.

Tracey's point is that Epstein's plea deal wasn't a result of leniency, but practically. A trial against Epstein was likely to fail (according to state and federal prosecutors). They had no strong witnesses willing to testify; many girls admitted to telling Epstein they were 18. Most were reluctant to testify; some were embarrassed and didn't want their parents to find out. Many girls simply liked Epstein. This is detailed in the 2020 OPR report, which journalists ignore for the most part, in favour of the argument that he just 'got off' because he was wealthy.

Hi MM, welcome to the forum. I am open to hearing you out on this and am admittedly inexpert on this topic, but I am skeptical of Tracey's seeming attempt to whitewash Epstein.

In the documentary I saw, they recruited the girls from the local schools so I'm not buying that he thought they were 18.

I have not read this 2020 report, but I wouldn't necessarily take that as gospel. If Krishner did let Epstein off easy there might be some desire to cover that up.

Epstein's lawyers had gathered the girls social media posts about sex and shoplifting. They found their criminal records. Many of them were working as strippers prior to meeting Epstein. Prosecutors felt these young women would simply collapse under cross examination and Epstein would be acquitted. It's quite possible, given Florida was prosecuting teen prostitutes at the time.

This is not at all what I recall from the documentary. Young girls, recruited from schools, obviously under 18, offered cash to give massages. Some of the parents noticed their daughters with suspicious amounts of cash. They were very angry at the lack of prosecution.

It's not like they are going to admit that the case is strong and then decline to prosecute.

The Epstein mythology isn't about his own offending with underage girls. The mythology is that he was involving 'the elites'. But none of the girls from the original palm beach police case ever alleged the involvement of other men, cameras, or blackmail.

These more sordid allegations only arose years later... which should be a red flag given his 2019 arrest was for offending in the same period (2002 - 2005)

Allegations about Epstein mutated beginning in 2010 all the way up until his 2019 arrest. Most of this was due to one accuser – Virginia Giuffre, a fabulist and perjurer. In 2011, she was looking for a book deal. A DailyMail journalist told her to throw in the name of Alan Dershowitz into her memoir, writing "we think he's a pedo although no evidence, you probably met him". A few years later, Giuffre files a lawsuit claiming she was raped by Dershowitz on 6 occasions. After 8 years of describing these rapes in graphic detail, she dropped the whole thing in 2022 and claims she made a "mistake" in identifying him.

In her 2011 FBI interview, Giuffre could not recall ever having sex with Andrew on Epstein island, but by 2015 she suddenly has full recall of an orgy with 8 underage girls. You can find dozens of these major changes in her story. It's on Irene Zisblatt's level.

The media have just run with all of Giuffre's absurd allegations and it snowballed into a massive hysteria. The real Epstein story is a lot more boring. After Epstein's 2008 conviction he made sure to only date models over the age of 18. Some of these women are now claiming they were 'trafficked', despite being in his orbit for 8 years while he paid all their expenses, and have filed lawsuits against Bank of America for "enabling" this abuse. It's a manufactured mass hysteria that has enabled a ~1 billion wealth extraction industry, with 30% to lawyers.

Has Tracey (or anybody) addressed Epstein's suspicious finances? How he doesn't seem to have been doing any trading whatsoever? Why did Wexner give him an enormous mansion in Manhattan? It seems he had backers.

There's also Ghislaine's father, Robert Maxwell. Quite independently of this Epstein stuff, Maxwell is widely believed to have been an Israeli spy. That's suggestive to me.

[Wetzelrad]

Whitney Webb does not read much material and has huge gaps in her knowledge. The fact she doesn't refer to Giuffre is itself a huge red flag.

That Webb has not put her focus on Giuffre should actually reflect well on her. Where she did discuss Giuffre in one article, it appears to me to be careful, well-supported, and vindicated.

Conversely, I can't see why Tracey should put all his focus on Giuffre. If Holocaust revisionists had tried to debunk the Holocaust by putting all their focus on discrediting witnesses who aren't even cited by Raul Hilberg, I would think very little of the whole project. That would be the real "huge red flag", in my view.

The only reason the Epstein 'intelligence' theory was posited in the first place traces back to Giuffre.

It only traces back to her in the sense that she was the first to accuse him of blackmail, at least according to records made public. But Florida police had already noted Epstein had secret cameras and tapes in his house long before then. They also found that his recording equipment and computers were "conspicuously absent" when they executed a search warrant (Link). It's also well established by photos and documents alone that Epstein did often meet with powerful men and introduce them to his women. So it is not difficult at all to arrive at the blackmail accusation independently of witness testimony.

One person set off the satanic panic with her allegations, it's not hard for me to accept that one Virginia Giuffre could contaminate the field and encourage others to posit theories of an intelligence operation...

I can agree that contamination is possible, but I was searching for something stronger than "could".

[mengelemyth]

In the documentary I saw, they recruited the girls from the local schools so I'm not buying that he thought they were 18.

I have not read this 2020 report, but I wouldn't necessarily take that as gospel. If Krishner did let Epstein off easy there might be some desire to cover that up.

This is not at all what I recall from the documentary. Young girls, recruited from schools, obviously under 18, offered cash to give massages. Some of the parents noticed their daughters with suspicious amounts of cash. They were very angry at the lack of prosecution. It's not like they are going to admit that the case is strong and then decline to prosecute.

YES, Epstein absolutely knew some of them were at high school, and thus knew they were under the age of consent (18 in Florida). But think like a prosecutor and consider how this this could play out in a trial.

Many of the girls admitted in police interviews that they told Epstein they were 18. They were instructed to lie about their ages by older girls who recruited them – this might have been an intentional move on Epsteins part to produce plausibly deniability. Many of the other girls were scared, they didn't want their parents to find out, so they couldn't use them in a trial.

Before a grand jury in Florida, a 14 year old admitted she lied about being 18 and admitted to shoplifting. She expressed disinterest in being there. Another 16 year old girl said Epstein knew that she was 16, but she was pissed off with the police for "dragging" her into an investigation. She testified that Epstein only initiate penetrative intercourse one day before her 18th birthday. This is the type of witness the prosecutors had! In the mid 2000s, the public was far more conservative about 'slutty' teenage girls than they are today... such testimonies in a trial could easily sway the jurors to to acquit a man like Epstein – even if he knew their ages.

YES – many of the women years later have said they wished he went to trial. YES – they are entitled to change their minds once they got older because they were young and dumb at the time. But the legal system usually does not work on a "I changed my mind" basis (although it did, in Epstein's case).

Keep in mind that nearly all of these women pursued compensation through lawsuits in the years following. Lawyers retrain their clients to have a consistent and clear narrative: Epstein had evaded justice and "my rights were violated". It's a fact that so few of them were playing ball with prosecutors at the time.

"we did not have . . . a lot of victims . . . lined up and ready to testify" – prosecutor Jeffrey H. Sloman

"Most of them did not want to have to come to court and testify. They were very worried about their privacy" – prosecutor Ann Villafaña.

"during interviews conducted from 2006 to 2008, no victims expressed a strong opinion that Epstein be prosecuted" – also from Villafaña... who was the most aggressive prosecutor in favor of throwing the book at Epstein.

A case agent told OPR that although she encountered victims who were believable, she did not encounter any who vigorously advocated for the prosecution of Epstein. 2007 FBI interviews showed witnesses like Jane Doe 2 saying things like "nothing should happen to Epstein".

Perhaps the government could have succeeded at trial. Perhaps they could've convinced more girls to testify. What we have is a re-framing of the case retroactively for a media story. Yes, Epstein never 'faced justice' and got a light sentence... but the police, state prosecutors, and federal prosecutors are all conceding this was influenced by witness issues.

Has Tracey (or anybody) addressed Epstein's suspicious finances? How he doesn't seem to have been doing any trading whatsoever? Why did Wexner give him an enormous mansion in Manhattan? It seems he had backers.

I'm not here to litigate on behalf of Tracey, he has his opinions. I agree the Wexner's compensation of Epstein was excessive and is therefore worth investigating. But nothing thus far has been demonstrated.

Epstein was known to be extremely charismatic and manipulative. He would befriend wealthy people, and ingratiate themselves into their circles. He specialised in tax planning so that he could appeal to the mega rich. Epstein's former colleagues at Bear Sterns (including Alan Greenberg) have all vouched for his credibility in this area. At the very least, he was great at selling the idea that he had unique skills, even if another financier could theoretically do the same for a cheaper price.

Epstein convinced Wexner, over many years, that his entire business needed restructuring. He began planting the seed that Wexners money was "at risk" (potential lawsuits, fraud, or friends/family/employees stealing) and that he could save him a fortune in taxes. He restructured all of Wexner's companies, his trusts, and investments. He purported to Wexner that he had saved him hundreds of millions through his tax planing. This may or may not be true, given the technicalities. Wexner was a branding guy, not a tax planning guy – and Epstein had garnered his trust. He pulled the wool his eyes, told him that other financiers were untrustworthy, and that he alone could've pulled off the tax savings he purportedly achieved. Wexner selling him the Manhattan townhouse for a penny was his compensation for all of this, which was, another tax avoidance strategy posited to him by Epstein.

Under this theory, Epstein was selling 'legitimate' estate planning and tax services, but charging an absurd price (only when he could get away with it). Epstein was similar to designer brands hawking $30 handbags for thousands. Epstein was simply a conman.

[mengelemyth]

Florida police had already noted Epstein had secret cameras and tapes in his house long before then. They also found that his recording equipment and computers were "conspicuously absent" when they executed a search warrant

The cameras removed from his Florida home were just a standard security cameras pointed outside onto the street, one of them was in a common area inside. It's sensible to remove them if you know the cops are investigating you.

The "hidden cameras" the cops did find had been installed several years earlier... by the Palm Beach Police Department with Epstein's full permission, after he reported ongoing burglaries! They were also in common areas (living room and garage). Webb simply doesn't read.

Now people point to a 2014 email, in which Epstein's pilot said he had purchased hidden cameras to put inside Kleenex boxes. Except, Epstein had no involvement with underage girls in this period? So what does this show? A lot of people have hidden cameras for security purposes, he was a rich guy. I'll even concede that maybe he was trying to gather dirt... But what kind? Perhaps he was filming conversations with a certain high profile figure, rather than filming sex?

The fact Epstein is confirmed to have put cameras into Kleenex boxes in 2014, still contradicts the whole narrative that Epstein had super sophisticated "pinhole" cameras in the walls the entire time. And none of it ties up to the dates involving teen girls.