The Pyres of Dresden

[Nessie]

Would a so-called revisionist provide a quantity for how many are buried at TII? Plus, show the evidence on which they base their claim.

[HansHill]

Would a so-called revisionist provide a quantity for how many are buried at TII? Plus, show the evidence on which they base their claim.

Good question Nessie. To my knowledge (please correct me if I'm wrong), no Revisionist has yet been given access or means to produce a quantity analysis of the kind you are requesting on site.

It sounds like we are on the same page here, for once, and I would strongly support you were you to begin campaigning openly for an analysis of this kind being performed!

**Edit**

Anyway this has derailed Stubble's Dresden thread long enough, please take any "rebuttal" you may have to any of the AR threads and I'll join you there.

[Nessie]

Would a so-called revisionist provide a quantity for how many are buried at TII? Plus, show the evidence on which they base their claim.

Good question Nessie. To my knowledge (please correct me if I'm wrong), no Revisionist has yet been given access or means to produce a quantity analysis of the kind you are requesting on site.

I take it you discount the Richard Krege survey and that you discount all the evidence so far produced by surveys of the camp?

It sounds like we are on the same page here, for once, and I would strongly support you were you to begin campaigning openly for an analysis of this kind being performed!

I regard the existing work as open. It has been done in public with reports published. I would also ask, which so-called revisionist has the necessary training and qualifications to conduct such a survey, the results of which you would accept?

[HansHill]

I take it you discount the Richard Krege survey and that you discount all the evidence so far produced by surveys of the camp?

I regard the existing work as open. It has been done in public with reports published. I would also ask, which so-called revisionist has the necessary training and qualifications to conduct such a survey, the results of which you would accept?

Start a Richard Krege thread.

[Nessie]

I take it you discount the Richard Krege survey and that you discount all the evidence so far produced by surveys of the camp?

I regard the existing work as open. It has been done in public with reports published. I would also ask, which so-called revisionist has the necessary training and qualifications to conduct such a survey, the results of which you would accept?

Start a Richard Krege thread.

Do you accept the evidence of the Dresden pyres, that they worked and cremated the corpses to at least cremains?

Do you accept the evidence of the Ohrdruf pyre, that it got hot enough to bend the rails and left corpses more or less whole, but renderable to cremains?

[Callafangers]

Its much harder for you to assert 800,000 from "countless" than it is for me to assert two or three orders of magnitude lower than that.

Bingo.

[Wetzelrad]

1) The exact measurements of the pit at the Heidefriedhof, where exactly did Irving get those from, could you please cite the exact source if you have/he gives it?

My assumption now is that he got them from visiting the cemetery himself, where the ash pit is still in-tact. The ash pit, marked 3 on a map in this flyer, matches those approximate dimensions.
https://heidefriedhof-dresden.de/wp-con ... lowres.pdf

[Nessie]

The pyres at Dresden prove that putting wood under a pile of corpses, with metal rails separating the two, setting the wood alight, will cause the corpses to catch fire and burn to at least cremains. They can be set alight and left to burn.

So, do the so-called revisionists here deny the existence of the Dresden corpses, or claim that they cannot have burnt the corpses and that the fire just went out?

[TlsMS93]

The pyres at Dresden prove that putting wood under a pile of corpses, with metal rails separating the two, setting the wood alight, will cause the corpses to catch fire and burn to at least cremains. They can be set alight and left to burn.

So, do the so-called revisionists here deny the existence of the Dresden corpses, or claim that they cannot have burnt the corpses and that the fire just went out?

You weren't there to see the entire process, so you can't guarantee that simple and limited processes perfected by the Nazis, which no other country can replicate, reduced these bodies to ashes.

You want to believe that the Germans had sufficient, undocumented fuel, or that they developed methods contrary to thermodynamics that dispense with documentation of fuel in the commonly used proportion was sufficient to reduce 1.7 million Jews to ashes. This is the beginning of credulity, accepting witnesses at face value without, however, putting them under scrutiny and replicating experiments they claim were used and their material nature, such as dozens of lumberjacks achieving higher-than-average timber harvesting productivity.

[HansHill]

You/all are familiar that exactly what you propose was done with all bells and whistles by the School of Civil Engineering, University of Queensland, Brisbane 4072, Australia and published in 1918 (isn`t this the one cited by Germar and Carlo in several of their works as well?)?
Just in off-chance case not:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 1218300766

It seems a lot of Activists here are coping by ignoring / misinterpreting / misunderstanding the study posted by Leif F earlier in the thread (looks like Leif dated the work earlier by one century LOL), so just to re-post the conclusions from this study for posterity (emphasis mine):

6. Conclusion

A series of experiments, using pig carcasses as surrogates for human
bodies, were conducted to establish the conditions that will result in total
destruction of organic matter in the cremation of bodies by means of an
open pyre. The following conclusions have been reached:

1. As the net heat supply to the animal surface decreases, combustion
supported by the degradation of animal carcasses ceases because of
flame quenching associated with the reduced generation of combus-
tible gases

2. A minimum of nine times the weight of the body in dry wood is
necessary to achieve almost complete destruction of all organic
matter (<10%) when the pyre is left unattended

3. Under ideal conditions (smaller carcasses and continuous feeding of
fuel) a minimum of 5 times the weight of the body in dry wood is
necessary to achieve almost complete destruction of all organic
matter (<10%)

4. For all conditions studied, the presence of a carcass will always result
in weakening of the fire but will not affect the structure of the flames
significantly. Only if the amount of fuel is very small (F/A ¼ 2) then
the heat sink associated to the carcass will reduce the fire size to a
point where flame extinction occurs

5. Carcass to carcass interactions with the pyre result in a stronger
endothermic impact of the carcass on the crib, thus it is less efficient
to cremate multiple carcasses than a single carcass

6. Self-sustained burning of animal carcasses in an open pyre configu-
ration is not possible. Significant energy from the wood is always
necessary to avoid quenching.

All estimates provided in the above conclusions are conservative
given that, in all cases studied, significant organic matter was still left in
all the animals cremated.

Experimental study on the fuel requirements for the thermal degradation of
bodies by means of open pyre cremation - Yerman et al, 2018

Activists on high cope alert!

[HansHill]

Dropping a link to the full study via Annas Archive, make sure to save a copy:

https://annas-archive.org/scidb/10.1016 ... 18.04.007/

[Stubble]

Didn't open from link, download was very slow.

Copy saved. Thank you Mr Hill.

Upon review, my proposal is indeed redundant. This test is a perfect analog for the Bug River pyres.

[Stubble]

Something for the forum's consideration, this appears to be the level of destruction of the remains subjected to the pyres.

One last photo, dated February 13, depicting presumed victims of the air raid. These are partially cremated bodies laid out on the street. Included is an open coffin containing one or more bodies.
https://fotothek.slub-dresden.de/fotos/ ... 314626.jpg

As can be observed, the remains are thoroughly desiccated, but, considerably intact (not obliterated).

[Nessie]

The pyres at Dresden prove that putting wood under a pile of corpses, with metal rails separating the two, setting the wood alight, will cause the corpses to catch fire and burn to at least cremains. They can be set alight and left to burn.

So, do the so-called revisionists here deny the existence of the Dresden corpses, or claim that they cannot have burnt the corpses and that the fire just went out?

You weren't there to see the entire process, so you can't guarantee that simple and limited processes perfected by the Nazis, which no other country can replicate, reduced these bodies to ashes.

Are you saying that you think the Dresden pyres did not work and went out, without cremating the corpses?

You want to believe that the Germans had sufficient, undocumented fuel, or that they developed methods contrary to thermodynamics that dispense with documentation of fuel in the commonly used proportion was sufficient to reduce 1.7 million Jews to ashes. This is the beginning of credulity, accepting witnesses at face value without, however, putting them under scrutiny and replicating experiments they claim were used and their material nature, such as dozens of lumberjacks achieving higher-than-average timber harvesting productivity.

I believe in what is evidenced to have happened, rather than what I think can happen.

The pyres are evidenced. Therefore, no matter what you think about quantities of wood and thermodynamics of burning corpses, placing wood under a metal grid, with corpses on top, and setting the wood alight using some fuel, works. The wood creates enough heat to set the corpses on fire, which contain enough fat and other flammables to burn, till what is left is wood ash, cremains and some larger burnt body parts. The photos and witnesses to pyres at Dresden, Ohrdruf and at Birkenau, along with the descriptions of the pyres at the AR camps and physical finds of ash, cremains and larger body parts, is evidence to prove the pyres happened.

It does not matter whether I think the pyres were possible, or not. Their existence is not dependent on my beliefs as to what can be done. Thinking that is the case, is called to argument from incredulity, whereby it is claimed that because how the pyres could have worked, seems impossible, or wrong, or it cannot be figured out, they are dismissed as having not happened. It is like me arguing that because I cannot work out how the Nazis could have fired rockets from France to London, therefore they did not fire rockets and the evidence rockets were fired, is all lies. That argument is wrong. It is evidence, not argument that determines if the Nazis did fire rockets at London.

[Nessie]

Something for the forum's consideration, this appears to be the level of destruction of the remains subjected to the pyres.

They look like the corpses from the Ohrdruf pyre. We know from the 1945 TII site survey, that cremations were often not complete, leaving identifiable body parts.