Holocaust Revisionism vs. Flat-Earth Theory

[ConfusedJew]

The census reports clearly show a decline of 6 million Jews before and after the war. There is a lot of different types of evidence showing that they were murdered in the war.

Again, you write out of ignorance and motivation, not knowledge nor curiosity. That you mention the 'census reports showing a decline of 6 million' is good enough for me to step away from the conversation at this point, as anyone with the most cursory investigation will come across the irreconcilable problems with this data.

Actually, they can save some time by just visiting here:

https://holocaustencyclopedia.com/conce ... ewish/489/

I've been to the villages and shtetls where my ancestors lived in Eastern Europe. They were Jewish villages that were totally destroyed. There were Jewish cemeteries that had fallen into disrepair and many of the grave stones were flipped over. The village that I visited in Poland had been completely re-established with Catholics and a large cross was placed in front of the village. Hundreds if not thousands of Jewish shtetls were liquidated. Some people kept history books that recounted the history of what life was like living there, what happened when the Nazis or Soviets came in, and the horrible violence that they faced even before WW2.

There's a reason that every single one of my great grandparents moved to the US before WW1 and it wasn't because they were treated so well by the Russians, Lithuanians, or Poles. Nearly all of their siblings were killed and some had very big families. A few siblings or cousins survived in various ways and made it to the US after the war but the vast majority of my family did not survive.

You guys are seriously out of touch with reality. This is the story of virtually every Ashkenazi Jewish family. It's not like a couple relatives got displaced after the war, a ton of family members did not survive. You can visit the site of Treblinka and see the markers for every single Jewish shtetl that was liquidated. There are probably thousands of markers representing villages which each represent thousands of Jews who were liquidated.

Maybe this is funny to you guys or you think that it was a good thing but this is the reality that you will find if you actually do your research on the subject with an open minded and not with some desire to explain away some bad thing that happened to you or why your life didn't turn out the way you wanted.

[Callafangers]

I've been to the villages and shtetls where my ancestors lived in Eastern Europe. They were Jewish villages that were totally destroyed. There were Jewish cemeteries that had fallen into disrepair and many of the grave stones were flipped over. The village that I visited in Poland had been completely re-established with Catholics and a large cross was placed in front of the village. Hundreds if not thousands of Jewish shtetls were liquidated. Some people kept history books that recounted the history of what life was like living there, what happened when the Nazis or Soviets came in, and the horrible violence that they faced even before WW2.

There's a reason that every single one of my great grandparents moved to the US before WW1 and it wasn't because they were treated so well by the Russians, Lithuanians, or Poles. Nearly all of their siblings were killed and some had very big families. A few siblings or cousins survived in various ways and made it to the US after the war but the vast majority of my family did not survive.

You guys are seriously out of touch with reality. This is the story of virtually every Ashkenazi Jewish family. It's not like a couple relatives got displaced after the war, a ton of family members did not survive. You can visit the site of Treblinka and see the markers for every single Jewish shtetl that was liquidated. There are probably thousands of markers representing villages which each represent thousands of Jews who were liquidated.

Maybe this is funny to you guys or you think that it was a good thing but this is the reality that you will find if you actually do your research on the subject with an open minded and not with some desire to explain away some bad thing that happened to you or why your life didn't turn out the way you wanted.

Do you expect anyone to take you seriously as a person, even with a tiny-violin-sob-story, once you have shown yourself to be a serial nuisance here, copy-paste-spamming ChatGPT for 3-4 months after pretending to just be 'curious and open-minded, eager to understand'? To call you "disingenuous" doesn't even come close to hitting the mark -- you have shown you are here first and foremost with an agenda. That means you don't get to play the "hello fellow goyim" card anymore. Nothing you have said here comes off as sincere. This doesn't mean we can't focus on the facts of what you say, but you've shown you neither understand the facts nor even care to. You dispense elementary-level arguments and rebuttals, or just recycle the ones you saw from other posters here the week before, all to keep the ball rolling in your effort to distract, deflect, etc., any way you can from 'Holocaust Denial'.

We have come full-circle, it seems.

puzzled.png (229.12 KiB) Viewed 161 times

Even if I took your personal story seriously, losing your family does not equate to "they were gassed". You lost them. People lose each other sometimes, especially in war-torn continents where all of them disperse to dozens of different countries, none of which have effective means of tracking or communicating with one another using early-mid 20th century technology.

If I lose my keys, I might tell people a dragon ate them... the fact that they are lost is true, and the dragon is bullshit.

[Nessie]

But isn't this the best-documented genocide in history?

It is right up there, certainly, which makes those who deny it happened akin to flat earthers, as they have to ignore and dismiss a lot of evidence.

How could the Nazis destroy evidence? What evidence is there of this event? Where did it occur, and who was responsible? Everything I can think of about Aktion 1005 is Blobel's, nothing more, like Alfred Naujocks's Gleiwitz.

Examples of the destruction of evidence are;

1 - only the Kremas and two farmhouses at Birkenau were demolished or blown up, the rest of the camp was left intact.
2 - Krema I at Auschwitz main camp was converted into an air raid shelter.
3 - The AR camps were razed to the ground, planted over and left guarded.
4 - Many mass graves were exhumed and corpses cremated.
5 - Cremation became the standard way of disposing of bodies at all the camps.
6 - The lack of any documents from the AR camps and Chelmno.

The destruction of evidence is considered as guilty conduct after a crime, and is indicative that a criminal act took place.

[Nessie]

The victorious powers did not have much of a motive and definitely not the means to create tens of thousands of falsified testimonies.

The people who hated Germans -- both as individuals and as groups -- had overwhelming motive to fabricate testimonies.

The majority of eyewitnesses to murder were German, Austrian and Ukrainian. What motive did they have?

After the war, Germany was split and became the border for the Cold War. There was a huge motive for both the Soviets and the West, to have a Germany on their side. That was greatly hampered by the legacy of the Holocaust. It would have been in both sides interests for the Germans not to have demonised themselves, with a genocide. That made German reintegration all the more difficult.

Indeed, the Soviets largely ignored the Holocaust. There were no histories of it, or memorials to it. Stalin never referred to it. Only one Nazi war crime trial took place in East Germany. The Soviets were only interested in prosecuting Ukrainian SS, and not the German camp staff. Stalin wanted East Germany to be strong, stable and on his side.

The people who mattered, the national leaders, did not have motive to hate Germans, They had motive to re-integrate Germany as quickly as possible, to their sphere of influence, and separate them from Nazism and consign that to history.

[Nazgul]

Indeed, the Soviets largely ignored the Holocaust. There were no histories of it, or memorials to it. Stalin never referred to it. Only one Nazi war crime trial took place in East Germany. The Soviets were only interested in prosecuting Ukrainian SS, and not the German camp staff. Stalin wanted East Germany to be strong, stable and on his side.

This is because there was no holocaust. The Soviets were interested in demonizing their enemy to cover their own iniquities.

[Nessie]

Indeed, the Soviets largely ignored the Holocaust. There were no histories of it, or memorials to it. Stalin never referred to it. Only one Nazi war crime trial took place in East Germany. The Soviets were only interested in prosecuting Ukrainian SS, and not the German camp staff. Stalin wanted East Germany to be strong, stable and on his side.

This is because there was no holocaust. The Soviets were interested in demonizing their enemy to cover their own iniquities.

You are missing the point. The Soviets largely ignored the Holocaust, so they were not demonising the Nazis for murdering Jews. As far as the Soviets were concerned, the Nazis were murdering citizens of the SU, Poland etc. Bear in mind, the Soviets did nothing to punish Latvians, Estonians and Belorussians who killed Jews. They only put Ukrainians who joined the SS on trial. The Soviets also aligned with Romania and said nothing about Romanian killing of Jews.

[ConfusedJew]

Even if I took your personal story seriously, losing your family does not equate to "they were gassed". You lost them. People lose each other sometimes, especially in war-torn continents where all of them disperse to dozens of different countries, none of which have effective means of tracking or communicating with one another using early-mid 20th century technology.

If I lose my keys, I might tell people a dragon ate them... the fact that they are lost is true, and the dragon is bullshit.

That's not how it worked. After the war, there were seriously organized efforts to locate missing relatives and people. There were displaced person camps, survivor registries, and well known organizations that helped survivors search for family members. The American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (JDC), the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society (HIAS), and the Red Cross were some of those.

The Arolsen Archives (formerly known as the International Tracing Service) are the world’s largest archive on Nazi persecution, forced labor, and the Holocaust. They hold millions of documents about the fate of people persecuted by the Nazis, and for decades their central mission was to help survivors and families trace missing relatives.

I'm starting to see that you guys are worse than Flat Earthers. The mid 20th century was not the Stone Age and a few decades later really heavy duty technology was developed to fill in the gaps of the few survivors that slipped through the cracks.

I seriously recommend that you guys do some actual research, go visit a Holocaust museum, talk to a Holocaust survivor, go visit the camps and archives. You have been clearly stuck in your basements and haven't even ventured out of this tiny echo chamber.

[Archie]

Even if I took your personal story seriously, losing your family does not equate to "they were gassed". You lost them. People lose each other sometimes, especially in war-torn continents where all of them disperse to dozens of different countries, none of which have effective means of tracking or communicating with one another using early-mid 20th century technology.

If I lose my keys, I might tell people a dragon ate them... the fact that they are lost is true, and the dragon is bullshit.

That's not how it worked. After the war, there were seriously organized efforts to locate missing relatives and people. There were displaced person camps, survivor registries, and well known organizations that helped survivors search for family members. The American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (JDC), the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society (HIAS), and the Red Cross were some of those.

The Arolsen Archives (formerly known as the International Tracing Service) are the world’s largest archive on Nazi persecution, forced labor, and the Holocaust. They hold millions of documents about the fate of people persecuted by the Nazis, and for decades their central mission was to help survivors and families trace missing relatives.

I'm starting to see that you guys are worse than Flat Earthers. The mid 20th century was not the Stone Age and a few decades later really heavy duty technology was developed to fill in the gaps of the few survivors that slipped through the cracks.

I seriously recommend that you guys do some actual research, go visit a Holocaust museum, talk to a Holocaust survivor, go visit the camps and archives. You have been clearly stuck in your basements and haven't even ventured out of this tiny echo chamber.

If we are as dumb as you say, how embarrassing for you then that you have been demolished repeatedly here on the forum.

[Nessie]

...I'm starting to see that you guys are worse than Flat Earthers. ...

If we are as dumb as you say, how embarrassing for you then that you have been demolished repeatedly here on the forum.

Your overconfidence and reluctance and/or inability to learn how to conduct historical and criminal research and accurately assess witness and other forms of evidence, gives you the mistaken belief that you have demolished others. You have not.

I agree with CJ now, you are worse than flat earthers. At least they do no one any harm.

[Wahrheitssucher]

Even if I took your personal story seriously, losing your family does not equate to "they were gassed".
You lost them. People lose each other sometimes, especially in war-torn continents where all of them disperse to dozens of different countries, none of which have effective means of tracking or communicating with one another using early-mid 20th century technology.

If I lose my keys, I might tell people a dragon ate them... the fact that they are lost is true, and the dragon is bullshit.

I seriously recommend that you guys do some actual research,…

Oh really! What a novel idea.
How should we do this “actual research”, oh vastly knowledgeable and studiously erudite one?

…go visit a Holocaust museum,
talk to a Holocaust survivor,
go visit the camps...

[Nessie]

Wahrheitssucher admits he does not know how to conduct historical research. The suggestions of visiting museums or the camps and speaking to /reading witness statements are good ones.

[HansHill]

The census reports clearly show a decline of 6 million Jews before and after the war. There is a lot of different types of evidence showing that they were murdered in the war.

I'm coming out of retirement in this thread to address something said by Confused Jew.

Here he is invoking the census data clearly showing what he needs it to show, in this instance, as evidence they were murdered. Here is the problem Confused Jew, and I am going to hold you to what you said. For you to say the census data clearly acts as the evidence you need that they were murdered, you have just dug yourself a massive hole. But of course you don't know that yet.

So since it's so clear to you, and since a census is quite literally a list and tally of people in a location at a time, you are now expected to provide the 6 million names of those murdered. For those murdered in a camp, you are expected to list the camp.

You are also expected to provide 4 million names for Auschwitz because any census data you are utilizing from post-war Poland will assume a 4 million death toll. So to be clear, your task is:

- 4 Million names for those gassed at Auschwitz
- 750,000 names for those gassed at Treblinka
- 250,000 names for those gassed at Sobibor
- 500,000 names for those gassed at Belzec
- This is 5,500,000 gassing victims and so you are finally expected to give a further half a million names for shooting victims / ghetto victims.

Furthermore, I understand this may take ~1 day or so, because this will require you pulling the readily available, and "clear" census data together, and since this is so "clear" to you, I won't be engaging back on this thread until I see your answer, meaning any coping will go completely unanswered by me.

I'd appreciate a mod reviewing my demands of Confused Jew here and ensure it is reasonable given his claims of how "clear" this evidence is. I trust the forum rules allow for, and in fact facilitate, demands like this.

Thank you for your attention to this matter!

[Nessie]

HansHill, using the data you expect CJ to use, please provide the names of the Jews arrested by the Nazis, or their allies, during WWII and sent to A-B, TII, Sobibor and Belzec and then that name reappearing in data after the time they were sent to the camp.

By doing that, you will have proved that person's survival.

[ConfusedJew]

If we are as dumb as you say, how embarrassing for you then that you have been demolished repeatedly here on the forum.

Why do you say that I've been "demolished repeatedly"?

Do you think it would make any difference if this forum had an audience of average humans?

[ConfusedJew]

Wahrheitssucher admits he does not know how to conduct historical research. The suggestions of visiting museums or the camps and speaking to /reading witness statements are good ones.

Has anybody here done any field research by visiting sites or archives or even been to a Holocaust museum?