Oppression of Germans as Prelude to the Final Solution

[fireofice]

I came across this article:

https://jottopohl.substack.com/p/revisi ... h-of-ernst

In it, the author takes the holocaust as a historical event for granted. However, he argues that it was essentially a response to Jews in the Soviet Union targeting ethnic Germans. This was apparently a view held by Ernst Nolte and points out that other historians are coming to the same conclusions. This is also useful information from a revisionist/denial perspective.

It would also be ironic from the perspective of the current Israel attack on Gaza. Everything that they do is handwaved away by pointing to October 7, as if that apparently justifies everything they do (ignoring of course the fact that Oct 7 itself was not just an attack from nowhere, but also a response to things Israel has done). Well from the same logic, everything the Nazis did to the Jews was justified even if there was a holocaust. Apparently only Nazis have to be proportional in their responses but Jews don't have to be. Very interesting standards.

Here's the author's book on the subject of the Soviet oppression of Germans that goes into more detail:

https://www.amazon.com/Years-Great-Sile ... 83821630X/

[Numar Patru]

Does Pohl offer any evidence of this in Nazi decision making? None of the pre-Barbarossa orders are particularly specific and none mention Volga Germans, at least that I can remember.

[Hektor]

Does Pohl offer any evidence of this in Nazi decision making? None of the pre-Barbarossa orders are particularly specific and none mention Volga Germans, at least that I can remember.

I think the evidence was mostly circumstantial with Policies on Jews occurring after there were policies against Germans. That part is however virtually skipped in historiography and completely absent in the media presentation. The NS JP was in response to developments in the Weimar period. Sure, there were Germans hostile to Jews already previous to this, but those were mostly related to questions of religion, partially to business practices and I think in some cases those were private conflicts that were dragged onto a more social or political level.

[Numar Patru]

What is JP?

Hitler wrote Mein Kampf before 1925. It is thoroughly racially antisemitic. This was nearly a decade before Stalin undertook any program against Volga Germans.

[fireofice]

What is JP?

Hitler wrote Mein Kampf before 1925. It is thoroughly racially antisemitic. This was nearly a decade before Stalin undertook any program against Volga Germans.

No one is claiming Hitler wasn't antisemitic before that.

[Callafangers]

What is JP?

Presumably Judenpolitik.

[Hektor]

What is JP?

Hitler wrote Mein Kampf before 1925. It is thoroughly racially antisemitic. This was nearly a decade before Stalin undertook any program against Volga Germans.

Jewish Policy.
Now what gives you the idea that Mein Kampf is 'racially antisemitic'... It has racialist parts. That is true. But it the stuff it got to say about Jews is separate from this.

It does not say Jews should be deported or interned neither. Let alone be 'exterminated'.
Mein Kampf was reacting to the role Jews played e.g. in the early Weimar Republic or with culturally degenerate tendencies.
So it is always a response. The "Anti-Semites" hardly ever have the initiative.

[Hans]

I came across this article:

https://jottopohl.substack.com/p/revisi ... h-of-ernst

In it, the author takes the holocaust as a historical event for granted. However, he argues that it was essentially a response to Jews in the Soviet Union targeting ethnic Germans.

I believe the connection is greatly exaggerated.

The Soviets deported the Volga Germans away from the advancing frontline. The Nazis wanted to use the Jews as leverage to prevent this, but the Soviets did not care. The Nazis ordered the deportation of Jews in Western Europe as "retaliation" and they were not really useful as leverage anyway (Soviet policymakers hardly cared about the fate of Jews in Germany). If this were all, there would have been tens of thousands of Jewish casualties, and that's it.

Not at least 5 Million.

[fireofice]

I believe the connection is greatly exaggerated.

The Soviets deported the Volga Germans away from the advancing frontline. The Nazis wanted to use the Jews as leverage to prevent this, but the Soviets did not care. The Nazis ordered the deportation of Jews in Western Europe as "retaliation" and they were not really useful as leverage anyway (Soviet policymakers hardly cared about the fate of Jews in Germany). If this were all, there would have been tens of thousands of Jewish casualties, and that's it.

Not at least 5 Million.

Strange argument. Obviously I disagree about how many Jews were killed. But putting that aside, retaliation is not always proportionate. For example, what Israel is doing to Gaza is in some sense retaliation for Oct 7, but way more people have been killed in the assault on Gaza than were killed in Oct 7.

This isn't a moral argument that such disproportionate retaliations are justified, just that they are retaliations in some sense, even if the retaliation is way over the top compared to the original offense.