Soviet POWs and Jews in the East

[Callafangers]

A recent John Wear article is of interest on the question of Soviet treatment of populations ever subjected to internment by Germany:

https://codoh.com/library/document/jewi ... captivity/

Based on the above information, I have put together a Wiki article on the topic of POWs:

https://wiki.codohforum.com/pages/index ... War_(POWs)

Ultimately, it seems fair to say that if the Soviets were killing en masse and utterly depriving of resources even their most 'patriotic heroes' captured while in sacrificial service to the Soviet army, there is good reason to infer that their treatment of Jews in general who were also previously in German captivity would have been potentially even more violent, oppressive, and devastating.

This is a central topic to the question of any "missing Jews", as these are precisely the Jews which are documented by Germany (through official Final Solution policy) of having been relocated to these remote, post-war Soviet territories.

[TlsMS93]

A recent John Wear article is of interest on the question of Soviet treatment of populations ever subjected to internment by Germany:

https://codoh.com/library/document/jewi ... captivity/

Based on the above information, I have put together a Wiki article on the topic of POWs:

https://wiki.codohforum.com/pages/index ... War_(POWs)

Ultimately, it seems fair to say that if the Soviets were killing en masse and utterly depriving of resources even their most 'patriotic heroes' captured while in sacrificial service to the Soviet army, there is good reason to infer that their treatment of Jews in general who were also previously in German captivity would have been potentially even more violent, oppressive, and devastating.

This is a central topic to the question of any "missing Jews", as these are precisely the Jews which are documented by Germany (through official Final Solution policy) of having been relocated to these remote, post-war Soviet territories.

It makes sense if we consider that in 1944 Germany was no longer part of the USSR, and it kept the Jews who were deported there. Since the USSR suffered famines at the end of the war and even years later, it is no wonder that starving and malnourished populations, such as the Jewish masses, succumbed to death.

See how the statistics show that the Jewish community lost its Soviet population and the other minorities flourished. Were they the only ones who had the privilege of leaving the country?

[Numar Patru]

What are you talking about? All minority groups were oppressed under the Soviets if they were viewed as possible allies of Germany.

By definition, Jews were not among these groups.

[Callafangers]

What are you talking about? All minority groups were oppressed under the Soviets if they were viewed as possible allies of Germany.

By definition, Jews were not among these groups.

So, actual Soviet soldiers were "possible allies of Germany"... but, somehow, Jews could not be? Do I need to break this down further?

[Numar Patru]

You understand that the Red Army was draftees for the most part and that many non-Russian nationalities were angry at the Soviet government, yes?

Don’t be stupid

[Callafangers]

You understand that the Red Army was draftees for the most part and that many non-Russian nationalities were angry at the Soviet government, yes?

Don’t be stupid

Do you suppose Stalin weighted that much more heavily than the duration under German captivity? And what of those who were Russian and enlisted before becoming POWs? Did Stalin treat them differently? No, he is rather explicit in this regard:

If […] instead of organizing resistance to the enemy, some Red Army men prefer to surrender, they shall be destroyed by all possible means, both ground-based and from the air, whereas the families of the Red Army men who have been taken prisoner shall be deprived of the state allowance and relief.

The commanders and political officers […] who surrender to the enemy shall be considered malicious deserters, whose families are liable to be arrested [the same] as the families of deserters who have violated the oath and betrayed their Motherland.

https://codoh.com/library/document/jewi ... captivity/

Once captured, it had nothing to do with whether they were patriotic, loyal Soviet citizens or not. The issue is that they did not kill themselves to kill all Germans (something Jews certainly weren't doing, either).

Also, did Stalin love/trust Jews? What's his track record show?

[Numar Patru]

I didn’t claim that he was lenient on people who surrendered. I suggested he was hard on those whom he feared the Germans could turn.

This isn’t hard. Would pictures help?

[Callafangers]

I didn’t claim that he was lenient on people who surrendered. I suggested he was hard on those whom he feared the Germans could turn.

This isn’t hard. Would pictures help?

Why would he feel that loyal, patriotic Soviet citizens whose families were directly under Soviet control would categorically be more likely to turn (or otherwise pose some internal threat to the Soviet Union) than Jews, whom he already proved his distrust for in instances like that of Poland 1941?

You might need to throw in some pictures if your logic can't stand with words, alone. You seem to be struggling.

[Numar Patru]

How did he demonstrate his distrust of Jews in Poland in 1941?

[Callafangers]

How did he demonstrate his distrust of Jews in Poland in 1941?

You and I have addressed this exact topic in the past. Jews deported to Siberia. Did you forget?

[Numar Patru]

No, but it was a very particular population of Jews, specifically Zionists, Bundists, and former Mensheviks. Jews generally speaking weren’t targeted in the same way that other groups were. In Poland, eg, Poles were targeted in far greater numbers than Jews, while Ukrainians and Belarusians were targeted much less.

The total number of Jews deported by Stalin by June 1941 was < 70,000.

Sorry, changed the sign

[Callafangers]

No, but it was a very particular population of Jews, specifically Zionists, Bundists, and former Mensheviks. Jews generally speaking weren’t targeted in the same way that other groups were. In Poland, eg, Poles were targeted in far greater numbers than Jews, while Ukrainians and Belarusians were targeted much less.

The total number of Jews deported by Stalin by June 1941 was < 70,000.

Sorry, changed the sign

Was Zionism not popular among Jews, in general?

Some moderate distinction by Stalin according to the nationalities of Jews in 1941 doesn't suggest this same policy would apply in 1944-5. Much of Stalin's mindset toward Jews remains shrouded in mystery over this period but some recent research has shown his antisemitism has had deeper roots than was previously thought. His early thoughts toward Zionism, relationships with Arab states, internal security concerns, as well as his relationship to Allied nations and the means and resources available to him post-war are all factors that have to be weighted in understanding what is best supported by reason and all available evidence. A requisite for some speculation comes as a result of:

• The Allies (including Soviets) having won the war and having no accountability to ensure honesty nor integrity
• The Soviets erecting an actual "Iron Curtain" very deliberately and obviously intended to conceal operations, including atrocities

At best, these considerations altogether create prominent holes in the exterminationist claim of confidence (let alone certainty) that "no Jews ended up there". At worst, this converges with documented Final Solution policy as evidence against claims they did not.

[Nessie]

The Nazis arrested and imprisoned c7 million Jews in camps and ghettos. There is no evidence, at any point during WWII, that the Nazis then deported any Jews and handed them over to the Soviets. In 1944-5, as the Nazis retreated, they actively tried to prevent the Jews they still had as prisoners from falling into Soviet hands. A Polish or Hungarian Jew, who had been working for the Nazis, could become a resource to work, or even fight for the Soviets.

The Jews who were never arrested by the Nazis, who fled or were taken east by the Soviets, are not missing Jews. The missing Jews are the ones arrested by the Nazis, where the camp and ghetto population of c7 million had become only a few hundred thousand by 1945.

[Callafangers]

The Nazis arrested and imprisoned c7 million Jews in camps and ghettos. There is no evidence, at any point during WWII, that the Nazis then deported any Jews and handed them over to the Soviets. In 1944-5, as the Nazis retreated, they actively tried to prevent the Jews they still had as prisoners from falling into Soviet hands. A Polish or Hungarian Jew, who had been working for the Nazis, could become a resource to work, or even fight for the Soviets.

We have been over this. You have no evidence whatsoever of a widespread policy to "to prevent the Jews they still had as prisoners from falling into Soviet hands". This was the case at some of the work camps, just as Jews at Auschwitz were offered to come along in the marches westward. There is no evidence this should necessarily extend to Jews sent further east, quarantined during the war as per Final Solution policy.

The Jews who were never arrested by the Nazis, who fled or were taken east by the Soviets, are not missing Jews. The missing Jews are the ones arrested by the Nazis, where the camp and ghetto population of c7 million had become only a few hundred thousand by 1945.

Yes, those are the ones missing and any trails of their whereabouts were post-war under the control of the Allied victors (especially the Soviets/Stalin) who had plenty of motive and global resources to rewrite history. Ghettos being emptied doesn't mean mass graves were being filled (we checked -- they aren't). That means they went somewhere else, which aligns with the official German policy.

[Nessie]

The Nazis arrested and imprisoned c7 million Jews in camps and ghettos. There is no evidence, at any point during WWII, that the Nazis then deported any Jews and handed them over to the Soviets. In 1944-5, as the Nazis retreated, they actively tried to prevent the Jews they still had as prisoners from falling into Soviet hands. A Polish or Hungarian Jew, who had been working for the Nazis, could become a resource to work, or even fight for the Soviets.

We have been over this. You have no evidence whatsoever of a widespread policy to "to prevent the Jews they still had as prisoners from falling into Soviet hands". This was the case at some of the work camps, just as Jews at Auschwitz were offered to come along in the marches westward. There is no evidence this should necessarily extend to Jews sent further east, quarantined during the war as per Final Solution policy.

You say there was no policy and then admit to the Nazi efforts to stop as many of their Jewish prisoners from falling into Soviet hands as possible. But that applies to 1944-5, when the Soviets were advancing and started to liberate, or more accurately find camps and ghettos, since most were left empty.

What about 1939-1944 and the Jews the Nazis arrested and imprisoned during that period? There is zero evidence of releases to the Soviets, either pre 1941, or post the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union.

The Jews who were never arrested by the Nazis, who fled or were taken east by the Soviets, are not missing Jews. The missing Jews are the ones arrested by the Nazis, where the camp and ghetto population of c7 million had become only a few hundred thousand by 1945.

Yes, those are the ones missing and any trails of their whereabouts were post-war under the control of the Allied victors (especially the Soviets/Stalin) who had plenty of motive and global resources to rewrite history. Ghettos being emptied doesn't mean mass graves were being filled (we checked -- they aren't). That means they went somewhere else, which aligns with the official German policy.

The Jews who did avoid arrest and escaped east to Soviet occupied territory, are not the c7 million arrested by the Nazis, of whom some did manage to buy their freedom, but c5.5 million went missing and a few hundred thousand were liberated from the remaining camps in 1945. Ghettos being emptied up to 1944, with the majority taking place in 1942-3, aligns with the evidence of huge areas of disturbed ground containing cremated remains. There is no evidence those millions of Jews were handed to the Soviets, or went elsewhere with the Nazi camp system. There is no evidence, once the last ghetto at Lodz closed in August 1944, that there were now c6 million Jews in Nazi camps.