Revision wrote: ↑Sun Jan 26, 2025 12:00 am
fireofice wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2025 9:20 pm"...having to believe in a conspiracy theory either way."
I and many other revisionists do not think so.
The only way to claim the 'Holocaust' narrative is not derived from conspiracy is to suggest little or no coordination in the advancement of this narrative and the falsehoods (or exaggerations) it is comprised of. That, or one can present a false dichotomy such as:
Jürgen Graf:
Of course nobody in possession of his mental faculties would seriously claim that the officially accepted Holocaust story is the product of a conspiracy in which the participants all agreed to suppress the truth and promote instead a falsified version of events agreed upon in advance.
- The “Extermination Camps” of “Aktion Reinhardt” (Chapter: The Alleged Revisionist “Conspiracy Theory”)
Of course, one does not need to show that
all participants agreed to suppress truth and support a false narrative; only that
some did (perhaps at a high level, where their decision to do so was consequential and important to the formation and permanence of the narrative, as a whole).
And as for this:
I don't think it was a planned conspiracy from the beginning. I think that when these gas chamber stories originated in 42, 43, they were roughly comparable to the stories about German atrocities during the world war one, when the Germans supposedly mutilated babies in Belgium and so on.
- Jürgen Graf interviewed by Ernst Zundel in 1994
I actually agree. I would go a step further to say that the T-4 operations known to the general public circa 1941 gave a strong platform for Allied governments and their Jews to feel confident in sowing a more extreme, 'barbaric' narrative derived from this one, which is what the evidence shows has indeed taken place.
Onto Rudolf:
I have made clear on this forum and elsewhere that I disagree with Rudolf, here, and I am not the only one. Perhaps I would first need to clarify his meaning of "huge Jewish conspiracy" -- just how "huge" are we talking, here? What's the threshold for being able to rightfully call it a "Jewish conspiracy"?
In recent interviews and writings, Germar has made clear that one of his motives in his work is to prevent retaliative violence against any groups or individuals. I respect this about him greatly however I think he may be putting this motive (driven perhaps by fear and/or personal experiences) ahead of a truly objective analysis and weighting of all relevant factors.
Here is just a small (yet powerful) sampling of some of the Jewish influences at key junctures in the formation of the 'Holocaust' narrative:
The Jewish organizations and people mentioned in this article who have conspired to promote the myth of the so-called Holocaust include:
- The World Jewish Congress (WJC), whose president, Nahum Goldmann, admitted that WJC officials originated and promoted the idea of the IMT and reparations from Germany. Only after persistent efforts by WJC officials were Allied leaders persuaded to accept the idea of the Nuremberg trials.
- Two Jewish U.S. Army officers, Lt. Col. Murray Bernays and Col. David Marcus, who played prominent roles in implementing and staffing personnel for the Nuremberg trials.
- Jewish Sgt. Bernard Clarke and other British officers, who tortured Rudolf Höss into making his famous confession at the IMT.
- Jewish attorney Benjamin Ferencz, who acknowledges that he used torture and intimidation tactics to help convict German defendants at the Allied postwar trials.
- Jewish attorney Robert Kempner, the chief prosecutor in the Ministries Trial at Nuremberg, who used bribes and threats to prosecute defendants.
- The Jewish Israeli Mossad agents near Buenos Aires, who illegally captured Adolf Eichmann in May 1960.
- Jewish “Holocaust” survivor Tuviah Friedman, who by his own admission beat up to 20 German prisoners a day to obtain confessions and weed out SS officers.
- Jewish prosecutor Josef Kirschbaum, who brought former concentration-camp inmate Einstein into court to testify that the defendant, Menzel, had murdered Einstein’s brother. Menzel foiled Einstein’s testimony by pointing to Einstein’s brother sitting in the court room.
- False Jewish eyewitness testimony at the trials of John Demjanjuk, Frank Walus and Feodor Fedorenko.
- The Canadian Holocaust Remembrance Association, a Jewish group that claimed Ernst Zündel was spreading false information about the “Holocaust.” This group used Canadian taxpayer money to prosecute Zündel for the criminal offense of spreading false information.
- The Jewish Defense League, which attacked David Cole and then threatened him into recanting his views on the “Holocaust”.
- The Simon Wiesenthal Center, which has been looking to prosecute elderly Germans even though there is no proof that these Germans actually committed a crime. Just being at a German camp is considered to be a crime.
- Moshe Kantor, president of the European Jewish Congress, who at the International Holocaust Remembrance Day at the European Parliament ceremony in Brussels on January 27, 2014 rejected free speech arguments regarding the so-called Holocaust. Kantor apparently wants to criminalize any speech, symbols or gestures that Jews consider to be anti-Semitic.
Other Jewish organizations are actively working to promote the official Holocaust narrative. For example, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) writes about its Holocaust education program:
“Since 2005, Echoes & Reflections has impacted more than 85,000 educators, reaching an estimated 8 million students across the United States—and at no cost. Through our Holocaust education programs and resources, educators gain the skills, knowledge, and confidence to teach this topic effectively.”
The ADL is also actively promoting “Holocaust” historian Deborah Lipstadt to be the U.S. Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism.[40]
The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) also actively works to advance pro-Israel policies and support a strong U.S.-Israel relationship.[41] All American politicians are so aware of AIPAC’s power that they would never publicly question the official Holocaust narrative.[42]
The alleged genocide of European Jewry is extremely important in promoting Jewish interests. The “Holocaust” has been used to justify the Allied war effort, to establish the state of Israel, to justify Israel’s violence against its neighbors, to induce guilt in both Germans and the Allied nations, to cover up and ignore horrific Allied crimes against Germans, to allow Jews to receive massive reparations from Germany, and to create solidarity in the Jewish community. The extreme importance of the “Holocaust” in advancing Zionist/Jewish interests ensures that Jewish groups and individuals will continue to promote this falsification of history in the future.[43]
https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... holocaust/
Putting Hollywood and the many Jewish "lie-witnesses" aside, can anyone honestly read through the above and not say there at least
may be a significant Jewish element to this narrative?
On the next:
CODOH AnswerMan:
Nevertheless, there remains the small handful of revisionists who maintain a conspiratorial perspective on the Holocaust, and we leave aside those few among them who discuss "conspiracy" and "hoax" for frankly rhetorical purposes. We can safely disregard such arguments since conspiracy theories are almost always false. Just as it is absurd to believe that a handful of influential Jews conspired to "create" a Holocaust, it is likewise absurd to believe that a handful of committed Nazis conspired to "perpetrate" one, leaving scarcely a trace of documentary, material, or physical evidence.
The inescapable conclusion is that, while there was a mass destruction of the Jewish people of some kind, it did not involve a planned attempt at extermination, homicidal gas chambers, or six million victims. Combining that fact with the self-evident fact that most people continue to believe that millions were killed in gas chambers according to a plan leads neither to a Jewish nor a Nazi conspiracy theory, but rather to a conclusion that is much simpler and even more obvious: mass hysteria on the grand scale.
https://codoh.com/library/document/are- ... i-semitic/
I'm not sure who authored these 'AnswerMan' articles but saying "conspiracy theories are almost always false" is a meaningless assertion since the definition of "conspiracy theory" is largely subjective and this is a term most often used for defamatory political purposes. Setting the political definitions aside, the term "conspiracy" simply means "a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful", and a "conspiracy theory"
is simply any theory thereof. Thus, when one says "conspiracy theories are almost always false", they are obviously
not talking about every conceivable conspiracy theory; only of those which are known through political and social currents as being "conspiracy theories" -- in other words, those which the establishment aims to discredit (and any other, especially ridiculous theories which they push into the same margin, to assist with that discreditation effort). There is a reason people often accuse someone of believing "flat earth theory" or a "moon landing hoax", if that person points out Israel's motive/means/opportunity in any given controversial crime or event. And it isn't because these people suspecting Israel's involvement in crimes necessarily do (nor even tend to) believe in "flat earth" theories, etc.
Moving on:
Thomas Dalton:
Without solid evidence of deliberate falsification of at least large parts of the Holocaust story, we are unjustified in calling it a hoax. Individual lies, exaggerations, even gross exaggerations, do not qualify as hoaxes. Therefore, in my opinion, the Holocaust was not a hoax.
However, this obviously does not mean that the story is true! It may still be rife with falsehoods, lies, and assorted absurdities. But there are many other ways in which untrue depictions of events can come to be widely believed, some of which are relatively innocent. Lacking hard evidence, we should grant the benefit of the doubt. Revisionism should attack the story, not the motive.
I largely agree with this but, on one hand, its a question of semantics (whether or not to call it a "hoax"), and on the other hand, the motives still matter, just as they do in any investigation of potential or actual conspiracy or deceptive campaign.
Traditionalists in turn leap on this hoax label and use it to their advantage. They take it to mean a kind of global conspiracy, a large-scale collective effort to deceive the general public. They say, “Those deniers actually believe that the Jews could pull off this monumental fraud! They actually think that thousands of historians, writers, journalists, government leaders — everyone, in fact, who supports the standard view — are in on the scam, all conspiring to assist the powerful Jews. How stupid can they be?” And there is some weight to this. You cannot claim massive fraud without a solid basis for it. If someone lies, call it a lie. If someone utters a blatant absurdity, call it absurd. Revisionists risk looking foolish, and only hurt their cause, by arguing for a hoax.
A fear of how it 'might look' is not what is important. All that matters is what the evidence (and sound, logical interpretations thereof) leads to. I agree that no one should be so hasty as to call it a "hoax" (unless maybe tongue-in-cheek, e.g. "it's a Holohoax!"), since the standard for proving a hoax is much higher than it is for demonstrating the lack of integrity of key pillars of an existing narrative. But once those pillars are shown to be extraordinarily weak or totally demolished, the claim of 'hoax' becomes increasingly plausible and we should not shy away from presenting it as such, should the evidence continue to mount.
The greatest conspiracy theorists are the traditionalists, not their opponents.
I agree, and this is what OP (and Ryan Faulk) has said, no?
To refer to the Holocaust as a ‘Jewish conspiracy’ implies that this small group of Jews acted together during and immediately after the war, concocted the Holocaust story, the gas chambers, the 6 million deaths, etc. because they knew that it would lead to global sympathy for Jewish people, to financial reparations, and perhaps even to the final consent to the creation of a Jewish Zionist State of Israel. Well, in fact all those things happened — but we are utterly lacking any evidence that it was planned that way.
- Debating the Holocaust: A New Look at Both Sides
This is fallacy. One does not need to prove
all of those things in order to say a "Jewish conspiracy" has taken place. I do not know of anyone who would say that the Holocaust narrative is
only a Jewish conspiracy, denying the role of other non-Jewish stakeholders. But given Jews are a very small portion of the nations they have been a part of (within Allied networks), and given their outsized role in producing 'evidence' (as witnesses), then subsequently in the trials, in their peddling of propaganda, in their historiographical endeavors, in academia, and much, much more, one has to take this question of Jewish coordination of key and substantial portions of this narrative seriously. It may be other things
in addition to a 'Jewish conspiracy' but this does not rule out this description as also being accurate.
Seamus Moriarty:
The founders of Holocaust revisionist scholarship have avoided casting the alleged Holocaust as the result of a conspiracy. Arthur Butz uses the word eight times in The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, each time in a context other than the Holocaust. Despite the massive academic, political, and judicial forces that have been deployed against him for forty years, Robert Faurisson doesn’t characterize the obligatory (in his country) version of the Holocaust as a conspiracy theory.
François Fradin’s study makes clear that these and other leading revisionists do not resort to the arguments and methods of conspiratorialists.
- The Orthodox Holocaust Narrative as a Conspiracy Theory:
https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... onspiracy/
Yes, and they do this because the term 'conspiracy' requires a higher degree of proof than does simply showing the lacking integrity and evidence of a given narrative. Especially in early revisionism, making such a bold claim as 'conspiracy' makes little sense. But as the story unfolds, and as the scope and scale of motives and outcomes are better understood, the case for such an assertion has become more plausible. I do not think it is necessary (and perhaps not even helpful) to emphasize the term "conspiracy", as I think the validity of interpreting the 'Holocaust' narrative as one becomes self-explanatory and somewhat self-evident just as soon as one begins to doubt the 'Holocaust' narrative,
since it strains credulity to suggest that nobody in power consciously lied throughout the formation of this narrative, and that no such powers actively coordinated to any major extent, along the way.
Carlo Mattogno:
That which the enemies of revisionism call “conspiracy theory” is in reality simply this all-pervasive atmosphere: all the parties to the case had implicitly agreed, for differing reasons, to support the dogma of the “gas chambers,” not as the result of a “conspiracy,” but because the gas chambers were now judicial and media “truth,” and not subject to argument. As to the witnesses, there is no need to presuppose that they were all deliberate liars; indeed the number of deliberate liars is numerically insignificant. The overwhelming majority of witnesses simply repeated and embellished what they had heard elsewhere, in a process which historian David Irving has called “cross-pollination.” Nor is this merely a matter of pure hearsay, for witnesses may sincerely believe their own corrupted testimony, having interpreted events, the real meaning of which they could not know, in the light of subsequent “knowledge,” in a sort of self-delusion aptly described by Italian anti-revisionist writer Valentina Pisanty:
“These writers [that is, the witnesses] often interweave their observations with fragments of ‘hearsay,’ the dissemination of which was omnipresent in the camps. The majority of the inaccuracies to be found in these texts are attributable to the fact that the witnesses confuse what they have seen with their own eyes with what they merely heard of during their period of internment. Then, with the passing of time, to the memory of events actually experienced is added the reading of other works on the subject, with the result that autobiographies published in recent years lack the immediacy of recollection in favour of a more consistent and complete vision of the process of extermination.”
- The “Extermination Camps” of “Aktion Reinhardt” (Chapter: Genesis of Holocaust Historiography and the
Revisionist Method)
Is it not a 'conspiracy' if a network of individuals promote and participate in a common lie, even if only through 'implicit agreement'? If they are lying, they are doing so consciously, and if their intentions align against a common enemy,
this is a conspiracy. You can argue the 'planning' was limited but this does little to dissuade from the fact that a massive criminal lie with some degree of coordination (even if largely implicit) has taken place. It's absurd to think that if such a common set of lies was being widely told by various stakeholders in alignment against the same enemy, that none of them ever had a conversation or two about it in private.
And all of that said, I do believe that many (if not most) 'Holocaust' witnesses
actually believe in the broader narrative about German atrocities. I think this explains why there are so many claimed 'missing Jews' on an anecdotal basis, with Jews moving across the world in total separation from their extended families and then writing them all off (mutually) as 'gassed'.