Treblinka Work Camp Delousing Chamber

[PrudentRegret]

In the budgeting for the SSPF Warsaw there is a documented budget for the construction of a Delousing Chamber in the "Treblinka Work Camp."

https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/jed ... ka/5341806

Titel E 4:
Neu-u. Erweiterungsbauten im Arbeitslager Treblinka

Zu Titel E 4:
Zur Erweiterung des Lagers Treblinka ist der Bau von 4 Häftlingsbaracken, 1 Kuchenbaracke für die Häftlinge, 1 Revier- und Wäschereibaracke f.d. Häftlinge, Sanitäre- und Wäschereianlagen zur Revier- und Wäschereibaracke, eines Lagerschuppens, Umbau der alten Häftlingsbaracke zur Werkstatt, Wasserversorgung, Stromversorgung, Entwässerung, Entlausungskammer und Feuerlöscheinrichtung erforderlich. (Siehe anl. Kostenvoranschlag der Zentral bauleitung der Waffen-SS und Polizei Warschau vom 10.11.42.)

1.480.000 Zl

New and Extension Buildings in Treblinka Labor Camp

The expansion of the Treblinka camp requires the construction of 4 prisoner barracks, 1 kitchen barrack for the prisoners, 1 infirmary and laundry barracks for prisoners, sanitary and laundry facilities for the infirmary and laundry barracks, a storage shed, conversion of the old prisoner barracks into a workshop, water supply, power supply, drainage, delousing chamber and fire extinguishing equipment. (See Appendix. Cost estimate of the Central Construction Office of the Waffen-SS and Police Warsaw dated 10.11.42.)

1.480.000 Zl

In the thread on Operation Reinhardt I have proposed that what we call "T-II" was a work camp, and this camp was also referred to as Arbeitslager Treblinka by Eberl during construction:



Therefore, it follows that some or all of this budget for the expansion of "Work Camp Treblinka" pertained to the facilities in the camp we call "T-II". This also lends evidence for budget for a real delousing facility at the camp. And circumstantially, more facilities for laundry sorting, storage and delousing which all aligns with my hypothesis regarding the primary purpose of the camp we call "T-II" as part of the economic Operation Reinhardt.

I have not seen this document before so I thought it was very interesting.

[DavidM]

Treblinka Camp 1, the work camp next to the vast gravel pit, was a long-term operation with long-term
residents and Polish civilian workers and major efforts at keeping people healthy.
The access train tracks and roadway went right next to and throughTreblinka II.
Such an arrangement is in direct conflict with Believer claims of a "super secret" mass murder factory at Treblinka II
Thank you for posting

[PrudentRegret]

It's worth pointing out that Believers claim that Eberl's July 1942 letter discussing "Arbeitslager Treblinka" is not referring to the work camp next to the gravel pit, it's referring to "T-II."

And then a few months later these budget documents also pertain to construction for "Arbeitslager Treblinka."

So what exactly is supposed to be the truth here?

July 1942 letter written by Eberl: Arbeistlager Treblinka == Treblinka II "extermination camp"

October 1942 HSSPF Budget: Arbeitslager Treblinka == Treblinka I labor camp next to the gravel quarry

This doesn't make much sense to me that different camps would be referred to as the same name. It is possible that Eberl's letter is referring to T-I. Mattogno took this position in his response to the HolocaustControversies manifesto. Here is the HolocaustControversies position, from their manifesto:

“Indicative of MGK’s historical ignorance, in M&G’s work on Treblinka, Mattogno incorrectly connects this and other letters from Eberl during summer 1942 to Treblinka I, the labor camp, instead of the new Treblinka II, the extermination camp.” (Myers)

To which Mattogno responded:

As one can notice, Myers studiously avoids to reveal where and most importantly why we have connected the letter to Treblinka I:1973

“In the third of these documents, a letter of June 26, 1942, of Dr. Eberl to the Commissioner for the Jewish residential district of Auerswald on the subject ‘Work Camp Treblinka,’ it reads at the beginning: ‘For the construction of the labor camp Treblinka the following objects are urgently required […].’”

The German text of the document is as follows:1974

“Betrifft: Arbeitslager Treblinka.
Für den Ausbau des Arbeitslagers Treblinka werden noch folgende Gegenstände dringend benötigt:…”
“Subject: Labor camp Treblinka.
For the construction work at the Treblinka labor camp the following items are urgently needed: …”

Myers even carefully avoids indicating the source of Eberl’s letter of 11 July 1942. The reason is the same: to hide the fact that this document also speaks about the “Labor camp Treblinka [Arbeitslager Treblinka]”:1975
“Betrifft: Arbeitslager Treblinka.
Das Arbeitslager Treblinka wird am Sonnabend, den 11.7.1942, betriebsfertig sein.”
“Subject: Labor camp Treblinka.
The Treblinka labor camp will be operational on Sunday 11 July 1942.”

In addition to those mentioned above, there are two other letters concerning materials tied to Eberl: one of 19 June and Auerswald’s reply about the delivery of the requested materials, listed in an identical manner.1976 The significance of these documents will be brought to focus by Thomas Kues in his response to this chapter.

I would like to add that these two documents mention “50 m iron pipe: 1 inch, 3/4 inch, 1/2 inch [50 m Eisenrohr: 1 Zoll, 3/4 Zoll, 1/2 Zoll],” and then also “20 iron pipe T-joints [20 Eisenrohr-T-Stücke]” and “30 iron pipe elbow joints [30 Eisenrohr-Kniestücke]” of the same diameter. According to Shalayev’s witness testimony quoted by Myers,
in the “gas chambers” there was “a gas pipe of approximately 80 millimeter diameter.” (p. 296), which is to say approximately 8 cm, but 1 inch (Zoll) corresponds to 2.54 cm, therefore these pipes were not designated for the alleged “gas chambers,” if we take Shalayev seriously about this.

Basically, Eberl’s requests for the “Arbeitslager Treblinka” not only fail to present the slightest allusion in favor of the “extermination camp” thesis, but rather show clues to the contrary.

Kues took the position that Eberl's letter referred to "Treblinka II" due to the fact there was no evidence that T I was undergoing reconstruction or expansion during this period:

In the 7 July letter, as well as in another letter dated 26 June 1942 already mentioned by Mattogno (point 63 in this chapter), the requested items are specified as needed for the construction or expansion of the “Treblinka labor camp [Arbeitslager Treblinka].” Based on this designation alone one might assume that the camp referred to was the Treblinka I penal labor camp situated at the quarry some 2 km south of Treblinka II. What speaks against this is first the fact that the requests were sent by Irmfried Eberl, whose private correspondence documents his service as commandant of Treblinka II. Eberl may have had some form of jurisdiction also over Treblinka I, 2252 but no evidence exists that Treblinka I – which was established already in 1941 – was undergoing reconstruction or expansion during the period in question.

Since, additionally, Treblinka II was indeed under construction then, most points to the “Treblinka labor camp” and the “Treblinka camp” mentioned in the letters as being the same camp, namely Treblinka II. The fact that the term “labor camp” may have been misleadingly applied to Treblinka II in these two letters does not prove per se that Eberl, in alleged correspondence with other German authorities dealing the “Jewish question,” was attempting to cover up the existence of an extermination camp. There may have been other reasons behind the use of the term, such as a perceived need to camouflage the sensitive nature of a facility used for mass deportations, mass confiscation of personal belongings and possibly also euthanasia, as well as more mundane reasons, for example bureaucratic ones.

2252 “SS Sonderkommando Treblinka,” which is known from Eberl’s private correspondence to have been the designation of the SS unit at Treblinka II, is shown by documents to have been in charge of large-scale deliveries of gravel that was most likely mined at the nearby Treblinka I gravel pit, implying a close formal relationship between the camps; cf. C. Mattogno, J. Graf,Treblinka, op. cit., p. 115, 330-331

Kues's point about no known T-I expansion would now be now moot due to these documents pertaining to expansion at "Arbeitslager Treblinka" around this time. But his point about Eberl having administration authority over Treblinka I stands.

And that leads me to my own proposal that "Arbeitslager Treblinka" referred to the entire operation off of the Treblinka spur, including the quarry and the sorting camp. There was no formal transit camp and of course no formal extermination camp. The Operation Reinhardt camp at this location was a labor camp, as I have suggested in different threads and compared to the Trawniki labor camp. If what I am suggesting is true, then documents pertaining to the expansion of "Arbeitslager Treblinka" would pertain to the construction of facilities, also, in what we currently call "T-II".

[Nazgul]

There were two Judenlagers, male and female attached to the arbeitslager. This would be TII, there was an extermination camp south allegedly at Kosow Lacki.

[Nessie]

.... And circumstantially, more facilities for laundry sorting, storage and delousing which all aligns with my hypothesis regarding the primary purpose of the camp we call "T-II" as part of the economic Operation Reinhardt.

...

What about the other parts of AR, in particular, deportation? Globocnik's report to Himmler, May 1944;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... sheet.html

"The entire Action Reinhardt is divided into four spheres: A. The expulsion itself. B. The employment of labour. C. The exploitation of property. D. Seizure of hidden goods and landed property. [=]

A. The Deportation
This is settled and completed. In this case the prerequisite was to get hold of the people with the small forces available and to cause as little economic damage as possible to war production by methodically appropriate measures. On the whole this was achieved. Considerable damage occurred only in Warsaw, where, owing to ignorance of the position, the methods applied in the final action were entirely wrong.
I was no longer able to carry out the action in Litzmannstadt (Lodz) myself because of my transfer.
The equipment which was provided for this action from seized goods, which however are to be considered as Reich property, have been removed completely. For reasons of surveillance in each camp a small farm was created which is occupied by an expert.
An income must regularly be paid to him so that he can maintain the small farm."

The deportation part of the action was from ghettos, such as Warsaw to the AR camps, now being turned into guarded farms. There is no mention of the people being deported going anywhere else. You accept that those people had all their property seized from them and say the camps were used for sorting that property, but what about the people? Why did AR only take them as far as the AR camps?

[PrudentRegret]

There were two Judenlagers, male and female attached to the arbeitslager. This would be TII, there was an extermination camp south allegedly at Kosow Lacki.

I agree that both these documents pertaining to construction/expansion and Eberl's letter are referring most likely to the camp we all call T-II when it names "Arbeitslager Treblinka." The second most likely position is that both Eberl's letter and these documents are referring to the labor camp off the quarry, TI.

But what doesn't make sense is to say "Arbeitslager Treblinka" referred to completely different camps in Eberl's letter and in the construction documents here.

I would be curious what HolocaustControversies would have to say. I am guessing they would try to say that "Arbeitslager Treblinka" referred to completely different camps here between the documents or else they would have to revise their position from their manifesto.

[Nessie]

Eberl was hardly going to refer to Todeslager Treblinka. Arbeitslager makes more sense, since the operation of the AR camps was to be kept as secret as possible.

[PrudentRegret]

Eberl was hardly going to refer to Todeslager Treblinka. Arbeitslager makes more sense, since the operation of the AR camps was to be kept as secret as possible.

So they used a codeword that referred to an actually existing camp? That is so convoluted. You are saying when Eberl said "Arbeitslager Treblinka" he was using a codeword that also denoted the already-existing labor camp? And then the budget documents here a couple months later? Are these budget documents referring to buildings to be constructed in T-II or T-I?

[Nessie]

Eberl was hardly going to refer to Todeslager Treblinka. Arbeitslager makes more sense, since the operation of the AR camps was to be kept as secret as possible.

So they used a codeword that referred to an actually existing camp? That is so convoluted. You are saying when Eberl said "Arbeitslager Treblinka" he was using a codeword that also denoted the already-existing labor camp? And then the budget documents here a couple months later? Are these budget documents referring to buildings to be constructed in T-II or T-I?

I am sure there is a document relating to Sobibor which refers to it as a work camp. It is barely code word territory to use that term, rather than death camp and it is certainly not convoluted. It makes sense for an operation acting under secrecy, hiding its true nature.

Eberl was commandant of TII, who had worked on T4, the same progression other TII AR staff made. Any document he pens to do with Treblinka will be TII. Van Eupen was camp commander of TI.

[PrudentRegret]

I am sure there is a document relating to Sobibor which refers to it as a work camp. It is barely code word territory to use that term, rather than death camp and it is certainly not convoluted. It makes sense for an operation acting under secrecy, hiding its true nature.

It is acknowledged by the mainstream that "Arbeitslager Treblinka" is the official name of "Treblinka I." But you are saying "Arbeitslager Treblinka" was code for T-II in Eberl's letter. And that this document above which pertains to the construction of a delousing chamber is referring to a completely different camp when it names "Arbeitslager Treblinka." Are there any witnesses or sources whatsoever attesting to a delousing facility in T-I? There is obviously a lot of rumor and controversy surrounding delousing chambers at T-II, with "Entlausungskammer" quite possibly referring to a steam chamber which became subject to so many rumors.

Why would Eberl use a code name that was the exact same official name of a real operation next door?

The most direct reading of the documents is that both Eberl's letter and the budget here are referring to the same camp, which would mean that "Arbeitslager Treblinka" as such encompassed operations and construction in both T-I and T-II, with this reference to the construction of a delousing facility corroborating the existence of a delousing facility at T-II, and also corroborating that T-II was a labor camp for Operation Reinhardt, as I've claimed in other threads.

[Nessie]

I am sure there is a document relating to Sobibor which refers to it as a work camp. It is barely code word territory to use that term, rather than death camp and it is certainly not convoluted. It makes sense for an operation acting under secrecy, hiding its true nature.

It is acknowledged by the mainstream that "Arbeitslager Treblinka" is the official name of "Treblinka I." But you are saying "Arbeitslager Treblinka" was code for T-II in Eberl's letter. And that this document above which pertains to the construction of a delousing chamber is referring to a completely different camp when it names "Arbeitslager Treblinka." Are there any witnesses or sources whatsoever attesting to a delousing facility in T-I? There is obviously a lot of rumor and controversy surrounding delousing chambers at T-II, with "Entlausungskammer" quite possibly referring to a steam chamber which became subject to so many rumors.

Why would Eberl use a code name that was the exact same official name of a real operation next door?

For the blindingly obvious reason that the real function of TII was being obscured.

The most direct reading of the documents is that both Eberl's letter and the budget here are referring to the same camp, which would mean that "Arbeitslager Treblinka" as such encompassed operations and construction in both T-I and T-II, with this reference to the construction of a delousing facility corroborating the existence of a delousing facility at T-II, and also corroborating that T-II was a labor camp for Operation Reinhardt, as I've claimed in other threads.

Can you link directly to the document, rather than a page of documents, that leads to more pages of documents?

As for your quote of the document you find so interesting, that it states "Waffen-SS und Polizei Warschau" means it refers to TI.

https://muzeumtreblinka.eu/en/informacj ... he-camp-1/

"At first, the camp was called “Arbeitserziehungslager” (Education Labour Camp), later it was officially named “Der SS- und Polizeiführer im Distrikt Warschau Arbeitslager Treblinka”.

[PrudentRegret]

Here are two of the documents:

For the blindingly obvious reason that the real function of TII was being obscured.

What you aren't getting is that calling it "Arbeitslager Treblinka" is not obscuring the functionality it's actually muddling the communication by using a "camouflage" name that just so happens to be the EXACT name for the real operation next door. This makes no sense. They wouldn't conflate the operation with the name of the real camp if there was an official entity known as "Arbeitslager Treblinka."

If these documents above pertain only to "T-I" then why is there no reference anywhere of a delousing chamber at T-I? Why would they put the delousing chamber at a gravel quarry labor camp and not at the outpost of the SS Fur and Clothing Works at T-II? They would obviously do the latter, and the documents above corroborate that T-II was under "Arbeitslager Treblinka".

[Nessie]

The camps fell under two separate jurisdictions.

From the Treblinka museum site;

https://muzeumtreblinka.eu/en/informacj ... he-camp-1/

"Sturmbannführer Ernst Gramss was the county mayor residing in Sokołów Podlaski. On his initiative, a company was established to produce concrete based on raw material extracted from the gravel pit....it was then that Gramss came up with the idea of setting up the labour camp. It was established in the late summer of 1941. SS-Hauptsturmführer Theo van Eupen became the camp commandant. He was associated with the Military Quartering Administration..."

That has nothing to do with AR. If Eberl wants to refer to TII as a labour camp, within the AR bureaucracy, that is not going to cause confusion, because they are not part of the TI setup. Same with TI, van Eupen and Gramss are not going to think that a reference to Treblinka labour camp is possibly about TII, as that camp is under AR.

TI would have a delousing chamber, for the same reason other labour camps did, to help control the spread of disease, as prisoners come and go.

[PrudentRegret]

The camps fell under two separate jurisdictions.

You have not shown this to be true, you've just cited the mainstream that claims this based on no evidence. Why would there be two camps right next to each-other off the exact same spur with the exact same name but under separate jurisdictions?

Trawniki was an Operation Reinhardt camp, and there the sorting and salvaging of confiscated property for that operation was under the jurisdiction of what is called SS-Arbeitslager Trawniki in documents.

Poniatowa was an Operation Reinhardt camp, and there the sorting and salvaging of confiscated property for that operation was under the jurisdiction of what is called SS-Arbeitslager Poniatowa in documents.

T-II was an Operation Reinhardt camp, and there the sorting and salvaging of confiscated property for that operation was under the jurisdiction of what Eberl himself calls Arbeitslager Treblinka.

TI would have a delousing chamber, for the same reason other labour camps did, to help control the spread of disease, as prisoners come and go.

Are there any accounts whatsoever of a delousing chamber at TI? The Treblinka museum includes a camp layout of T-I with different facilities, but nowhere for a delousing chamber. I am not aware of any accounts of delousing chamber in T-I from any witnesses. But of course there are witness accounts of a "steam chamber" in T-II.

Nessie, if T-II was not officially known as Arbeistlager Treblinka, similar to Arbeitslager Trawniki and Arbeitslager Poniatowa, the latter two unequivocally Aktion Reinhardt camps also, then what was the official name of the T-II camp?

[Nessie]

The camps fell under two separate jurisdictions.

You have not shown this to be true, you've just cited the mainstream that claims this based on no evidence.

The "mainstream" claims, by which you mean the secondary, historical sources I use, can evidence the history of each camp, who worked there, who they worked for and the work they did.

Why would there be two camps right next to each-other off the exact same spur with the exact same name but under separate jurisdictions?

The labourers at TI meant easy access to labour to construct TII. It was a remote area, but well connected by the railways. The two camps could help disguise the role of TII by making it appear people were being taken to a labour camp.

Trawniki was an Operation Reinhardt camp, and there the sorting and salvaging of confiscated property for that operation was under the jurisdiction of what is called SS-Arbeitslager Trawniki in documents.

Poniatowa was an Operation Reinhardt camp, and there the sorting and salvaging of confiscated property for that operation was under the jurisdiction of what is called SS-Arbeitslager Poniatowa in documents.

T-II was an Operation Reinhardt camp, and there the sorting and salvaging of confiscated property for that operation was under the jurisdiction of what Eberl himself calls Arbeitslager Treblinka.

TI was a labour and prison camp, set up to increase extraction from the quarry, that had no connection with AR.

TI would have a delousing chamber, for the same reason other labour camps did, to help control the spread of disease, as prisoners come and go.

Are there any accounts whatsoever of a delousing chamber at TI? The Treblinka museum includes a camp layout of T-I with different facilities, but nowhere for a delousing chamber. I am not aware of any accounts of delousing chamber in T-I from any witnesses. But of course there are witness accounts of a "steam chamber" in T-II.

I have looked and you are right, there is no evidence of a delousing chamber at TI. Such a chamber at TII makes sense, to stop the spread of disease with lice in the clothing seized.

Nessie, if T-II was not officially known as Arbeistlager Treblinka, similar to Arbeitslager Trawniki and Arbeitslager Poniatowa, the latter two unequivocally Aktion Reinhardt camps also, then what was the official name of the T-II camp?

The Hofle Telegram called it "T". The Ganzenmueller Letter called it "Treblinka". The Stroop Report called it "TII". As you say Eberl referred to it as the labour camp Treblinka.

You are scrabbling around, but you still cannot evidence what exactly took place inside TII, the AR camp. You cannot prodice a single witness, which is odd, considering how many people went there.