Re: No one to debate? [Rudolf vs Vann on Jake Shields]
Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2024 5:22 pm
by Hektor
Archie wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 5:04 pm
Nessie thinks that by repeating the word "evidence" over and over like an incantation that this proves his case. And he thinks that if someone else doesn't use the exact word "evidence" enough times (in his cherrypicked sample) that it means they are automatically wrong.
This whole forum is dedicated to discussing evidence for and against the Holocaust.
It's the lack of understanding burden of proof there. It's the Holocaustians that need to present Evidence for their case, but more than malicious claims and innuendo never really comes there. Since they don't have a strong argument for their case, they start throwing the ball to the Revisionist with rather odd demands for evidence. E.g.: "Show us were the 6 million gassed Jews went"... I get that they don't use that number anymore so often of coursen... But the 'where did they go, if they weren't gassed' is something I recall from 30 years ago already.
Re: No one to debate? [Rudolf vs Vann on Jake Shields]
Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 7:52 am
A search of the word "evidence" for page 5 of this debate finds it is used 3 times, all by Sanity Check. That is the problem revisionism will never be able to counter, it is pretty much evidence free.
We're discussing the Jake Shields MMA podcast here, and its ramifications for the environment of Revisionism as a movement. For evidence surrounding the Holocaust debate specifically, you can review the works of Germar Rudolf, Carlo Mattogno, John C. Ball, Friedrich Berg, and others.
I have seen some sections of the debate and at one point Rudolf states that there is a "plethora" of documents for deportation & resettlement of the Jews by the Nazis. He fails to follow that up with any evidence as to what department was responsible, the names of any senior Nazis in that department, transport records or records of millions of Jews in camps in 1944. If millions of Jews had been deported and resettled, there would be a "plethora" of documents from the department responsible.
Re: No one to debate? [Rudolf vs Vann on Jake Shields]
Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 7:52 am
A search of the word "evidence" for page 5 of this debate finds it is used 3 times, all by Sanity Check. That is the problem revisionism will never be able to counter, it is pretty much evidence free.
We're discussing the Jake Shields MMA podcast here, and its ramifications for the environment of Revisionism as a movement. For evidence surrounding the Holocaust debate specifically, you can review the works of Germar Rudolf, Carlo Mattogno, John C. Ball, Friedrich Berg, and others.
I have seen some sections of the debate and at one point Rudolf states that there is a "plethora" of documents for deportation & resettlement of the Jews by the Nazis. He fails to follow that up with any evidence as to what department was responsible, the names of any senior Nazis in that department, transport records or records of millions of Jews in camps in 1944. If millions of Jews had been deported and resettled, there would be a "plethora" of documents from the department responsible.
“To Higher SS and Police Leader NORTH. Secret.
The Fuehrer has ordered that Jewish compulsory labour gangs are to be sent with all speed into the area of Russian operations for the carrying out of important constructional undertakings. They go on 18.1.42 in special transport into the building area allotted to the SILESIAN operations group, in the region of DUENABURG/MOSCOW. Medical examination and injection is necessary. The Jews wear black-working dress with green armbands. Employment – Reichsautobahn. Organisation TODT undertakes guard duties. Please see to it that the pool of compulsory laborers is not reduced.
Higher SS and Pol. Leader SOUTH-EAST”
Just one of very many such deportation orders, more can be read here:
We're discussing the Jake Shields MMA podcast here, and its ramifications for the environment of Revisionism as a movement. For evidence surrounding the Holocaust debate specifically, you can review the works of Germar Rudolf, Carlo Mattogno, John C. Ball, Friedrich Berg, and others.
I have seen some sections of the debate and at one point Rudolf states that there is a "plethora" of documents for deportation & resettlement of the Jews by the Nazis. He fails to follow that up with any evidence as to what department was responsible, the names of any senior Nazis in that department, transport records or records of millions of Jews in camps in 1944. If millions of Jews had been deported and resettled, there would be a "plethora" of documents from the department responsible.
“To Higher SS and Police Leader NORTH. Secret.
The Fuehrer has ordered that Jewish compulsory labour gangs are to be sent with all speed into the area of Russian operations for the carrying out of important constructional undertakings. They go on 18.1.42 in special transport into the building area allotted to the SILESIAN operations group, in the region of DUENABURG/MOSCOW. Medical examination and injection is necessary. The Jews wear black-working dress with green armbands. Employment – Reichsautobahn. Organisation TODT undertakes guard duties. Please see to it that the pool of compulsory laborers is not reduced.
Higher SS and Pol. Leader SOUTH-EAST”
Just one of very many such deportation orders, more can be read here:
It is not dispuited that transports did take place. I note you quote one without the numbers of people transported. It also speaks to labour gangs, rather than resettlement of people. The problem Kues runs into, is 1944.
"The vast majority of the Jews allegedly gassed in 1944 must in reality have been sent on elsewhere. The only certain answer we can give at this point to the question “where?” is simply this: German-controlled territory."
He then struggles to find any significant numbers;
"According to the Jewish eyewitness Abraham Shpungin “over five thousand Hungarian Jewesses, who had been brought to Latvia directly from Auschwitz” were kept in one of the labor camps in Dundaga (Dondangen) in western Latvia that was established in May 1944.[125] Shpungin further writes that “by July 1944, when they [the remaining Dundaga prisoners] left on the march to Libau [Liepāja], there were only about three thousands of [the Hungarian Jewesses] left.”
He goes on to admit;
"The above shows that, while plans for mass deportations of Jews to the Eastern territories had been shelved by 1944 for obvious reasons, it was still considered feasible by German authorities to deport relatively large numbers of Jews – say, in the low tens of thousands – to the Eastern territories to provide labor in certain industries."
If millions of Jews had not been gassed, then he would have had no problem finding huge numbers in the east, in 1944. Instead, considering over 400,000 Hungarian Jews were sent to A-B, he can only trace a few thousand in the east. As for other nationalities, 34,000 Dutch Jews were sent to Sobibor in 1943, and Kues finds;
"From Sobibór some 1,000 Dutch Jews were transferred to labor camps in the Włodawa region".
It is no wonder Rudolf does not go into any details about the supposed "plethora" of documents during the debate. The evidence is that instead of there being Jews in their millions, the Nazis were now dealing a few thousand here and there.
Re: No one to debate? [Rudolf vs Vann on Jake Shields]
I have seen some sections of the debate and at one point Rudolf states that there is a "plethora" of documents for deportation & resettlement of the Jews by the Nazis. He fails to follow that up with any evidence as to what department was responsible, the names of any senior Nazis in that department, transport records or records of millions of Jews in camps in 1944. If millions of Jews had been deported and resettled, there would be a "plethora" of documents from the department responsible.
“To Higher SS and Police Leader NORTH. Secret.
The Fuehrer has ordered that Jewish compulsory labour gangs are to be sent with all speed into the area of Russian operations for the carrying out of important constructional undertakings. They go on 18.1.42 in special transport into the building area allotted to the SILESIAN operations group, in the region of DUENABURG/MOSCOW. Medical examination and injection is necessary. The Jews wear black-working dress with green armbands. Employment – Reichsautobahn. Organisation TODT undertakes guard duties. Please see to it that the pool of compulsory laborers is not reduced.
Higher SS and Pol. Leader SOUTH-EAST”
Just one of very many such deportation orders, more can be read here:
It is not dispuited that transports did take place. I note you quote one without the numbers of people transported. It also speaks to labour gangs, rather than resettlement of people. The problem Kues runs into, is 1944.
"The vast majority of the Jews allegedly gassed in 1944 must in reality have been sent on elsewhere. The only certain answer we can give at this point to the question “where?” is simply this: German-controlled territory."
He then struggles to find any significant numbers;
"According to the Jewish eyewitness Abraham Shpungin “over five thousand Hungarian Jewesses, who had been brought to Latvia directly from Auschwitz” were kept in one of the labor camps in Dundaga (Dondangen) in western Latvia that was established in May 1944.[125] Shpungin further writes that “by July 1944, when they [the remaining Dundaga prisoners] left on the march to Libau [Liepāja], there were only about three thousands of [the Hungarian Jewesses] left.”
He goes on to admit;
"The above shows that, while plans for mass deportations of Jews to the Eastern territories had been shelved by 1944 for obvious reasons, it was still considered feasible by German authorities to deport relatively large numbers of Jews – say, in the low tens of thousands – to the Eastern territories to provide labor in certain industries."
If millions of Jews had not been gassed, then he would have had no problem finding huge numbers in the east, in 1944. Instead, considering over 400,000 Hungarian Jews were sent to A-B, he can only trace a few thousand in the east. As for other nationalities, 34,000 Dutch Jews were sent to Sobibor in 1943, and Kues finds;
"From Sobibór some 1,000 Dutch Jews were transferred to labor camps in the Włodawa region".
It is no wonder Rudolf does not go into any details about the supposed "plethora" of documents during the debate. The evidence is that instead of there being Jews in their millions, the Nazis were now dealing a few thousand here and there.
To be clear, you're rejecting evidence of Jewish transports to the east because i) the one example of many i provided was prior to the siege of Stalingrad and thus swathes of eastern territory was occupied and controlled by Germany, and ii) those listed were to be employed as wartime labour?
All of this despite this being an exact fit for what Rudolf mentioned to Shields, your arbitrary criteria notwithstanding?
Am I to infer then that you wish to see records of German transports into non-German (ie Russian) occupied territory specifically of unemployable Jews? And this is what constitutes evidence of genocide, despite your bizarre comments about lack of evidence earlier in the thread? You do understand how that comes across, don't you.
Re: No one to debate? [Rudolf vs Vann on Jake Shields]
Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 7:10 pm
...
It is not dispuited that transports did take place. I note you quote one without the numbers of people transported. It also speaks to labour gangs, rather than resettlement of people. The problem Kues runs into, is 1944.
"The vast majority of the Jews allegedly gassed in 1944 must in reality have been sent on elsewhere. The only certain answer we can give at this point to the question “where?” is simply this: German-controlled territory."
He then struggles to find any significant numbers;
"According to the Jewish eyewitness Abraham Shpungin “over five thousand Hungarian Jewesses, who had been brought to Latvia directly from Auschwitz” were kept in one of the labor camps in Dundaga (Dondangen) in western Latvia that was established in May 1944.[125] Shpungin further writes that “by July 1944, when they [the remaining Dundaga prisoners] left on the march to Libau [Liepāja], there were only about three thousands of [the Hungarian Jewesses] left.”
He goes on to admit;
"The above shows that, while plans for mass deportations of Jews to the Eastern territories had been shelved by 1944 for obvious reasons, it was still considered feasible by German authorities to deport relatively large numbers of Jews – say, in the low tens of thousands – to the Eastern territories to provide labor in certain industries."
If millions of Jews had not been gassed, then he would have had no problem finding huge numbers in the east, in 1944. Instead, considering over 400,000 Hungarian Jews were sent to A-B, he can only trace a few thousand in the east. As for other nationalities, 34,000 Dutch Jews were sent to Sobibor in 1943, and Kues finds;
"From Sobibór some 1,000 Dutch Jews were transferred to labor camps in the Włodawa region".
It is no wonder Rudolf does not go into any details about the supposed "plethora" of documents during the debate. The evidence is that instead of there being Jews in their millions, the Nazis were now dealing a few thousand here and there.
To be clear, you're rejecting evidence of Jewish transports to the east...
No, I specifically said there is evidence of such transports. I am not rejecting any of it.
... because i) the one example of many i provided was prior to the siege of Stalingrad and thus swathes of eastern territory was occupied and controlled by Germany, and ii) those listed were to be employed as wartime labour?
All of this despite this being an exact fit for what Rudolf mentioned to Shields, your arbitrary criteria notwithstanding?
Am I to infer then that you wish to see records of German transports into non-German (ie Russian) occupied territory specifically of unemployable Jews? And this is what constitutes evidence of genocide, despite your bizarre comments about lack of evidence earlier in the thread? You do understand how that comes across, don't you.
No, I want to see evidence of millions of Jews being transported to Nazi occupied eastern territories and their subsequent resettlement between 1941 and 1944. Evidence of a few hundred, maybe a few thousand workers, here and there, being taken to labour camps in the east, that dried up in 1944, is not evidence of millions of Jews resettled and alive in 1944.
You cannot even name the department, or Nazis responsible for the resettlement you allege. Then there is the evidence of all the ghettos having closed down by autumn 1944 and the Nazis fleeing west in 1944-5, with thousands, not millions of Jews and the Soviets finding mainly empty camps. That is why I say there is zero evidence of resettlement.
Re: No one to debate? [Rudolf vs Vann on Jake Shields]
No, I want to see evidence of millions of Jews being transported to Nazi occupied eastern territories and their subsequent resettlement between 1941 and 1944. Evidence of a few hundred, maybe a few thousand workers, here and there, being taken to labour camps in the east, that dried up in 1944, is not evidence of millions of Jews resettled and alive in 1944.
This is a logical contradiction, and I think you know it.
>Seek evidence of mass movements of people
>Spanning a multi-year period
>Dismiss individual instances of large transports meeting your exact criteria because no one singular instance equals the totality
You surely realise that a 3 year mass movement of a million Jews would look like individual train loads of Jews "here and there". I've shown you just one of those as intercepted and corroborated by the Allies, along with the link for you to investigate more. As to their final fate, i'll refer you to Vol 28 of the HH, specifically subsection 7.11 where Mattogno deals with this question adeptly.
So yes, Rudolf's assertion holds, we see lots of "evidence" (your favourite word) of Jews being transported East.
Re: No one to debate? [Rudolf vs Vann on Jake Shields]
No, I want to see evidence of millions of Jews being transported to Nazi occupied eastern territories and their subsequent resettlement between 1941 and 1944. Evidence of a few hundred, maybe a few thousand workers, here and there, being taken to labour camps in the east, that dried up in 1944, is not evidence of millions of Jews resettled and alive in 1944.
This is a logical contradiction, and I think you know it.
>Seek evidence of mass movements of people
>Spanning a multi-year period
>Dismiss individual instances of large transports meeting your exact criteria because no one singular instance equals the totality
When c850,000 people are evidenced and documented to have arrived at TII, and only a few thousand are evidenced and documented to have left to go to camps south or west of TII, how is it a "logical contradiction" to say that there is no evidence of mass transports of hundreds of thousands to the east?
You surely realise that a 3 year mass movement of a million Jews would look like individual train loads of Jews "here and there".
A mass movement of Jews to the east, should look like the mass movement of Jews to the AR camps, Chelmno and A-B. About 265,000 Jews from Warsaw were arriving, on an almost daily basis, at TII in 1942. About 34,000 Jews from Westerbork arrived at Sobibor on 19 transports over 3 months in 1943. Around 400,000 Hungarian Jews arrived at A-B over 2 months in 1944, with transports on a daily basis. For those groups to then move east, would mean daily, huge transports, not the "here and there" transports that dried up in 1944, that has been evidenced by Kues.
I've shown you just one of those as intercepted and corroborated by the Allies, along with the link for you to investigate more. As to their final fate, i'll refer you to Vol 28 of the HH, specifically subsection 7.11 where Mattogno deals with this question adeptly.
So yes, Rudolf's assertion holds, we see lots of "evidence" (your favourite word) of Jews being transported East.
Show me evidence (which should be everyone's favourite word) of millions of Jews being transported east in regular daily transports, and in camps in 1944. Show me where the c700,000 Warsaw, Dutch and Hungarian Jews were being accommodated.
Re: No one to debate? [Rudolf vs Vann on Jake Shields]
Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2024 2:25 pm
by Stubble
If everybody deported from the Warsaw ghetto died, why are so many survivors able to give interviews?
Now, I'm not even mentioning the partisan soldiers, or 'ghetto fighters' as Yad Vashim refers to them, and the einsatzgruppen antipartisan activity. What you call the 'holocaust of bullets'.
I'm talking about survivor testimony, even up to today, talking about their 'harrowing survival'.
I wonder if it is possible to do a survey of how many treblinka survivors specifically have collected a stipend check.
Re: No one to debate? [Rudolf vs Vann on Jake Shields]
Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2024 2:30 pm
by HansHill
HH vol 19, subsections 10.1 - 10.5 give a credible accounting to the numbers, mechanisms, and (possible) fates of those deported through the Reinhardt network.
Regarding logical inconsistencies, to surmise they were choked to death with a Russian tank, burned on impossibly high funeral pyres fueled by the bodies of women, is more than a little leap of judgement!
What was it you said about evidence again? Can Wiernek's positive claim that women act as fuel be corroborated?
Re: No one to debate? [Rudolf vs Vann on Jake Shields]
PrudentRegret wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 8:04 pm
And now the gaze of that critique is turning on the Holocaust Narrative, and rightfully so. People correctly associate it with wokeness (which is on the retreat) and meta-premises in social science that define our morality, and even associate it with the root of race denial itself.
I don't think those connections are widely made at all, and when revisionist sympathisers try demonstrating that the Holocaust lies behind Civil Rights and other paradigm shifts of the postwar era, they end up losing people or sounding too conspiratorial. The opposite is the case; the Civil Rights era mood shift (however contested it was or became) preceded the greater interest in the Holocaust, which was arguably 'safer' and more anodyne than wrestling with race, since mass killing is easy to condemn.
Moreover, interest in the Holocaust was never particularly left-wing nor integrated into an intersectional canon
This is of course absurd, South Park picked up on the intellectual wellspring of the proto-woke Museum of Tolerance curriculum back in 2002:
In that episode the "Museum of Tolerance" as an institution is explicitly coded as Jewish, with the museum tour guide even wearing a Jewish Star to make the point clear.
Theodor Adorno famously wrote "to write poetry after Auschwitz is barbaric", and Holocaust Belief was absolutely foundational to the field of Critical Theory and in particular the study of The Authoritarian Personality. Even normie conservatives have now picked up on the continuity from Critical Theory to the "racial reckoning" and wokeness. Others like Eric Turkheimer, himself Jewish, also cites the Holocaust as a reason we have a moral responsibility to deny HBD. Of course everyone will point to the Nazis as a reason why we can't acknowledge HBD. The Holocaust is used to invoke moral opposition to all manner of right-wing politics including immigration restriction, concern over demographic change, etc. Many Jews themselves have invoked the Holocaust to explain why America must accept mass immigration from third-world migrants.
SanityCheck wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 10:25 pm
Your argument here contradicts itself; Mattogno and Rudolf have certainly not "won the long-form academic argument" if "academic institutions" won't accept the arguments.
Eric Turkheimer will go to his deathbed denying HBD, and I'm sure he would say "heh, you racists haven't won the argument because you haven't convinced me, and our great academic institutions reject your conclusions!" But our academic institutions are not optimized for truth-finding, it's not a coincidence that the university system began as extensions to Monasteries and Religious Order, that remains the case today and you are just a Low Church priest trying to safeguard this narrative.
Amateur HBD bloggers have won the academic argument against credentialed experts like Turkheimer, even if every academic continues to deny it. Likewise Revisionists have won the argument even if you never admit it. Take something like cremation capacity at the AR camps, and at this point even you just throw your hands in the air and try to diminish the importance of that argument. You'll never admit you've lost the argument that it requires 15kg of wood to cremate a human body. You've lost it nonetheless.
Candace Owens made waves by doing an episode on her Podcast about USS Liberty:
It was only published 4 days ago and nearly has 5 million views already, making it her most-viewed video on her channel with 3 million subscribers. I think there's a 75% chance Candace will overtly platform Revisionism within the next year, she's already flirted with it with some lightweight Mengele denial, which was enough to get her banned from Australia.
Then realise how little revisionism addresses these multiple narratives, which is why it cannot alter the history of the Holocaust in France, a storyline which continues to be debated and disputed with nary a reference to any revisonist ever, since they said sweet fa about the key issues with Vichy, the Germans, French society etc. It would take an awful lot to produce a better take on France than already exists in many hundreds of books, so it would seem, quite sensibly, that revisionists have decided to ignore this. But at the cost of having no influence, leverage or veto power over the conventional understanding of what happened. And thus being entirely irrelevant to this.
The problem with Revisionism is not that it disrupts the prevailing narrative of "the Holocaust" in France, it's that it introduces an entirely new narrative that deserves to be analyzed and understood. The narrative of how we were all lied to for so long, how all of our institutions not only failed to ascertain the lies but built them from the ground up, how those lies were used in our culture to direct our political beliefs and ultimately public policy, how they are used to directly suppress politics in Europe...
Re: No one to debate? [Rudolf vs Vann on Jake Shields]
Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2024 3:12 pm
by Stubble
HansHill wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 2:30 pm
HH vol 19, subsections 10.1 - 10.5 give a credible accounting to the numbers, mechanisms, and (possible) fates of those deported through the Reinhardt network.
Regarding logical inconsistencies, to surmise they were choked to death with a Russian tank, burned on impossibly high funeral pyres fueled by the bodies of women, is more than a little leap of judgement!
What was it you said about evidence again? Can Wiernek's positive claim that women act as fuel be corroborated?
Hear me out, if our ancestors were correct about witches, and and jewesses were witches, this could 'possibly' be true.
But to believe it, you have to believe in witches, and you have to believe all jewesses are witches.
Re: No one to debate? [Rudolf vs Vann on Jake Shields]
Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2024 3:13 pm
by Nessie
Stubble wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 2:25 pm
If everybody deported from the Warsaw ghetto died, why are so many survivors able to give interviews?
Now, I'm not even mentioning the partisan soldiers, or 'ghetto fighters' as Yad Vashim refers to them, and the einsatzgruppen antipartisan activity. What you call the 'holocaust of bullets'.
I'm talking about survivor testimony, even up to today, talking about their 'harrowing survival'.
Considering their ages, and when compensation started to be paid, it will be very few who got a "check". That is out of c850,000 people sent to TII, so a survival rate of about 0.017%.
Re: No one to debate? [Rudolf vs Vann on Jake Shields]
HansHill wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 2:30 pm
HH vol 19, subsections 10.1 - 10.5 give a credible accounting to the numbers, mechanisms, and (possible) fates of those deported through the Reinhardt network.
Regarding logical inconsistencies, to surmise they were choked to death with a Russian tank, burned on impossibly high funeral pyres fueled by the bodies of women, is more than a little leap of judgement!
What was it you said about evidence again? Can Wiernek's positive claim that women act as fuel be corroborated?
Hear me out, if our ancestors were correct about witches, and and jewesses were witches, this could 'possibly' be true.
But to believe it, you have to believe in witches, and you have to believe all jewesses are witches.
Finally a compelling argument from the exterminationists!
Re: No one to debate? [Rudolf vs Vann on Jake Shields]
Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2024 3:29 pm
by Nessie
HansHill wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 2:30 pm
HH vol 19, subsections 10.1 - 10.5 give a credible accounting to the numbers, mechanisms, and (possible) fates of those deported through the Reinhardt network.
Link? Quotes? Why is that deniers find it so hard to evidence daily transports of hundreds of thousands of people and the subsequent accommodation of millions? Why can they not name the department or Nazis responsible for such a huge operation? Could it because it never happened????
Regarding logical inconsistencies, to surmise they were choked to death with a Russian tank, burned on impossibly high funeral pyres fueled by the bodies of women, is more than a little leap of judgement!
That is just revisionist ignorance of witness memory and recollection, as they seek to find excuses to disbelieve and argue that their incredulity is somehow evidence.
What was it you said about evidence again? Can Wiernek's positive claim that women act as fuel be corroborated?
Fritz Sander, Topf & Sons engineer, on the functioning of the Krema ovens said;
"The working principle of the new type for mass incineration of corpses, which I developed, amounted to introducing the corpses for incineration in the oven in a mechanized way, contrary to the old procedure, the corpses being taken there by the load of their own weight, though sliding on a fire-proof surface with an inclination of forty degrees; the corpses would fall on the grid and burn under the effect of the fire. In this the corpses themselves would be used as additional fuel."
It stands to reason that as corpses burn, that will spread the fire to other corpses. Fat is the primary fuel and since women carry a higher proportion of body fat, it again stands to reason that a female corpse can burn better than a male.