The CODOH Revisionist Forum

fireofice wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 5:43 am

Archie wrote:yet the median for the believer side is ~ZERO hours of research

Yeah most of my life believing in the holocaust I barely knew anything about it. As a denier I have learned more about the topic than when I accepted it. Is he saying that if one doesn't spend more than 30 hours on the topic, we should be agnostic about the holocaust? That would be an interesting position to hold. I've also heard some mock "deniers" who don't know German for taking a position. Oh so if we don't know German, we should be holocaust agnostic? They back off of that pretty quickly.

Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 2:22 pm It's kind of like basing history unironically on black propaganda generated by the Polish Government in Exile, the Soviet, etc. You know?

Black propaganda is a form of propaganda intended to create the impression that it was created by those it is supposed to discredit. Black propaganda contrasts with gray propaganda, which does not identify its source, as well as white propaganda, which does not disguise its origins at all. It is typically used to vilify or embarrass the enemy through misrepresentation.

SanityCheck wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 2:46 pm

Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 2:22 pm It's kind of like basing history unironically on black propaganda generated by the Polish Government in Exile, the Soviet, etc. You know?

Black propaganda has a rather specific meaning which is likely not the one you think it does.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_propaganda

Black propaganda is a form of propaganda intended to create the impression that it was created by those it is supposed to discredit. Black propaganda contrasts with gray propaganda, which does not identify its source, as well as white propaganda, which does not disguise its origins at all. It is typically used to vilify or embarrass the enemy through misrepresentation.

Mattogno misuses black propaganda to refer to things that clearly aren't. He's not too hot on defining propaganda in general - intelligence reports aren't prima facie 'propaganda'. Smearing everything as propaganda is itself a propagandistic tactic, as is the innuendo that all propaganda is somehow false.

HansHill wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 1:38 pm

Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 9:35 am
Tragically, not very. Occasionally someone comes along and breaks new ground, but, usually it is just a tilling of the same ground.

That's part of what I respect about Irving's work, though I may not completely agree with him.

Part of my issue in this specific case is the reliance of the primary literature on demonstrable liars. Use of better primary witnesses would have been a plus.

Here the discussion has been more about demographics and distribution however, and a couple of flys shouldn't spoil the punch. When dealing with these numbers, it is accounting methods, not witnesses, that are at issue.

My remark was simply a lament about the nature of holocaust history. Unfortunately, for the Operation Reinhardt camps, not unlike ancient history, we are left in such a situation. Little to nothing remains in the east, short of a busted tile here or there or the outline of a foundation. That doesn't mean that the entire event should be so constrained. Out of hundreds of thousands it seems like the odd handful of demonstrable liars represent the lion's share of the historical spotlight.

To me, this is part of the tragedy.

Hang on a second - other tragedies can usually be evidenced for a start. I spent the past few days peeling back the onion layers of Sanity Check's sources, and the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain, to evidence mass murder was.... train timetables

Imagine!

>A cataclysmic massacre has just taken place in New York City
>Here is a booklet of ticket stubs as evidence

Unfathomable levels of chutzpah here.

Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 2:22 pm ...Why were the mouths of demonstrable liars chosen to bring us the golden yarn?

It's kind of like basing history unironically on black propaganda generated by the Polish Government in Exile, the Soviet, etc. You know?

Nessie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 3:46 pm

Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 2:22 pm ...Why were the mouths of demonstrable liars chosen to bring us the golden yarn?

Revisionists have not proved that 100% of the witnesses lied about the gassings.

It's kind of like basing history unironically on black propaganda generated by the Polish Government in Exile, the Soviet, etc. You know?

The "etc" is the Nazis, who despite their efforts to destroy evidence, still left mountains of it and admitted to their crimes.

Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 3:57 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 3:46 pm

Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 2:22 pm ...Why were the mouths of demonstrable liars chosen to bring us the golden yarn?

Revisionists have not proved that 100% of the witnesses lied about the gassings.

It's kind of like basing history unironically on black propaganda generated by the Polish Government in Exile, the Soviet, etc. You know?

The "etc" is the Nazis, who despite their efforts to destroy evidence, still left mountains of it and admitted to their crimes.

You misunderstand Nessie, I'm asking why demonstrable liars were chosen to spin the yarn. I can't 100% prove that 100% of the witnesses lied about homicidal gassing, you are right, but, I can 100% prove that many witnesses lied about many things. My question is, where is an honest witness. Is that too much to ask?

To your other point, no, I'm referring to stuff like the black book of Polish jewry and the like. Allied reports like 'death mills'. Things of that nature.

Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 5:07 pm Dude, Muller saying he was in the krema for Himmler's visit isn't emotive, it is a fucking lie. He was in the potato commandos at buna at the time.

I can go on and on and on with bullshit like this, from various witnesses, and it doesn't matter because you will carry their water.

There was no extermination campaign. If there had been, they would have killed everyone they got their hands on. Roughly half of the jews in Auschwitz Birkenau were unfit for work, and they were not exterminated. Even if you are just killing 'useless eaters' you would kill thse people, right? But no, they only killed, you know, this group of displaced people or whatever, except for literally everyone sent to an operation Reinhardt camp, they killed all of those people, right? In steam chambers. Or vacuum chambers. Or, something. Maybe it was a submarine motor, right? I think that's what was said before they hung eichmann.

Archie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 3:22 pm For atrocities committed by a state, if that same state stays in power and is able to control what information gets out, this could be a scenario where the evidence for the atrocities is thin and fragmentary. Certain crimes of the USSR were denied for a long time for these sorts of reasons. But with the Holocaust, there's no excuse. Enemies of the Reich took over all of the relevant territory by the end of the war and captured huge amounts of documents.

In a letter dated January 5, 1944, the Higher SS and Police Leader Odilo Globocnik, addressed Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler regarding the economic settlement of Operation Reinhardt (Aktion Reinhard). The letter was submitted in response to Himmler’s order from September 22, 1943, which requested its completion by December 31, 1943. He outlined the two-part structure of the accounting of the “economic part of Operation Reinhardt… a) accounting and delivery of confiscated valuables and b) accounting of values generated from labor”. Globocnik also stressed that “With the entire accounting of Reinhardt, it must also be noted that their documents must be destroyed as soon as possible since the documents of all other works in this matter have already been destroyed.”

Report by Odilo Globocnik on the “economic part of Operation Reinhardt” enclosed in his letter of January 5, 1944 to Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler. The report is divided into four sections: the “resettlement” of Jewish populations, the exploitation of forced labor, the utilization material assets, and the acquisition of hidden values, including real estate. Regarding the Operation Reinhard extermination camps Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor the report notes that “the facilities built for this operation from accruing funds … have been entirely removed. For monitoring reasons, a small farm has been established in each camp, manned by a specialist”.

Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 3:10 pm When the vans turn into homicidal gas vans or the steam chambers turn into homicidal vacuum chambers or homicidal gas chambers, that's the propaganda. It's misinformation, not malinformation. That's what I would call black propaganda. Like the dead babies thrown out of incubators or weapons of mass destruction propaganda. There was no real basis for it. I'm not saying that Kuwait didn't have a nicu, I'm saying Iraqi troops didn't throw premature infants on the cold floor and leave them to die.

SanityCheck wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 8:13 pm

Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 3:10 pm When the vans turn into homicidal gas vans or the steam chambers turn into homicidal vacuum chambers or homicidal gas chambers, that's the propaganda. It's misinformation, not malinformation. That's what I would call black propaganda. Like the dead babies thrown out of incubators or weapons of mass destruction propaganda. There was no real basis for it. I'm not saying that Kuwait didn't have a nicu, I'm saying Iraqi troops didn't throw premature infants on the cold floor and leave them to die.

No, black propaganda has a very precise definition, which does not fit the Kuwait incubators example since that came from a Kuwaiti testifying to the US Congress, not from a purported Iraqi government source.

Black propaganda must be passed off as coming from the opposition, end of story. In WWII this was exemplified by Sefton Delmer's Soldatensender Calais, a British run radio station purporting to be a German military radio station in France.

Fake leaflets and fake posters were also used - the Polish underground used these against German troops in occupied Poland. Some of this verged on the humorous, to post up placards mimicking German ordinances with different content.

Attributing a report to a named opposition source (newspaper) even if first publicising it in your own media would verge on black propaganda, but technically still isn't (it is misinformation). One needs to have fully attributed the medium to the other side - which can of course include the famous postage stamps of Himmler put into circulation, these were clearly being purported as proper German stamps

A defector would not count as black propaganda: if someone defects from a country or from one political party to another, they are now speaking out because they switched sides.

A prisoner interrogation isn't black propaganda
A captured document isn't black propaganda.

Roosevelt presented a false map in 1941 supposedly proving Nazi designs on Latin America. That, too, isn't black propaganda because *Roosevelt* presented it, the provenance wasn't from a Nazi mouthpiece.

Note that this example as well as the Kuwaiti incubators testimony shows one can still call out false propaganda and misinformation.

Disinformation in the Soviet KGB sense of dezinformatsiia tended to be grey propaganda, laundered through non-Soviet mouthpieces.

Neither black propaganda nor disinformation apply to the Holocaust, I'm afraid, since the wartime reports were openly attributable to specific mouthpieces, i.e. the Polish underground, Polish Jewish underground and Soviet underground going to governments (in exile) and NGOs, and were accompanied by numerous other reports through diplomatic, intelligence and religious channels, plus masses of letters, diaries and manuscripts which were not publicised at all.

Since Chelmno was the first reported with gas via gas vans, the fuss over steam chambers is especially stupid, apparently a well thought out 'propaganda' campaign was derailed because of misperceptions and misdescriptions. Occam's razor implies that early reports of steam were simply accounts from a greater distance or less time learning that the gas chambers at Treblinka operated with engine exhaust, since steam is a gas. The contrary claim that these were 'only' disinfection chambers and that hundreds of thousands of deportees went somewhere else is a more convoluted explanation and lacks corroboration, while failing to account for all other aspects of the reports from Treblinka fugitives mentioning steam, or the other reports from other fugitives which were clearer about gas.

As much as you might like the extra sinister sound of 'black propaganda', please don't be as mentally crippled as Mattogno and stop misusing the term.

TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 8:27 pm In the Holocaust, no department was in charge, as Raul Hilberg said, nor was there a budget. So demanding from us which department took care of this is counterproductive in the matter. Which department took care of the expulsion of 14 million Germans in the post-war period? If not, then were they gassed and cremated and did they destroy the evidence as well?

TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 8:27 pm In the Holocaust, no department was in charge, as Raul Hilberg said

nor was there a budget

Which department took care of the expulsion of 14 million Germans in the post-war period?

If not, then were they gassed and cremated and did they destroy the evidence as well?