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Re: Kula Columns

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:26 am
by Stubble
Nessie wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:16 am
Stubble wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:09 am You said "Dude said he was in the krema for Himmler's visit" when you were talking about Vrba.

I was referring specifically to Muller there. Because he was demonstrably at buna at that time, and thus lied.

I'm obviously still referencing Muller there. I checked the structure and syntax. That should have been clear. The only mention of Vrba was that he said muller was his source...
You said
Vrba claims he is the main source of descriptions. From those descriptions we end up with the Auschwitz rollercoaster, 9 furnaces and a partridge in a pear tree...

Dude said he was in the krema for Himmler's visit, this is impossible because he was demonstrably at buna.
That reads Vrba is the dude. Please start to link to, name and directly quote the witnesses.
Nessie, how many times do I have to link you to the various quotes?

Also, that you misread that as Vrba being 'the dude' rather than Muller surprises me, but, it probably shouldn't....

The links to kula's testimony and to Muller's description are already in this very thread, do you want me to post them, again?

I have already cited the statement from Muller about Himmler's visit. Do you want me to cite it again?

I could cite Vrba saying he indeed drew the floor plan, on the stand, at the zundel trial, assuming that citing his testimony in the trial is insufficient for you. Is it really insufficient for you? Are you really that opposed to due diligence? Must the cited source be spoon fed to you?

Re: Kula Columns

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:28 am
by HansHill
Nessie wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:14 am
....Your claim is the same as claiming that when witnesses describe a mass shooting, but they vary in the type of gun used, that means the witnesses all lied, there was no gun, or mass shooting....
Now this, is an actual logical fallacy,a false equivalency.

Revisionists agree that shooting is a viable murder weapon, and do not attack the viability of "guns" as such. Rather Revisionists can accept that shootings can and did occur, and spend their efforts to ascertain shootings as Genocide, or not.

Assessing the technical and documentary record of a mythical zyklon column =/= assessing the utilisation of X or Y gun

Re: Kula Columns

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2025 4:22 pm
by Nessie
Stubble wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:26 am
Nessie wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:16 am
Stubble wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:09 am You said "Dude said he was in the krema for Himmler's visit" when you were talking about Vrba.

I was referring specifically to Muller there. Because he was demonstrably at buna at that time, and thus lied.

I'm obviously still referencing Muller there. I checked the structure and syntax. That should have been clear. The only mention of Vrba was that he said muller was his source...
You said
Vrba claims he is the main source of descriptions. From those descriptions we end up with the Auschwitz rollercoaster, 9 furnaces and a partridge in a pear tree...

Dude said he was in the krema for Himmler's visit, this is impossible because he was demonstrably at buna.
That reads Vrba is the dude. Please start to link to, name and directly quote the witnesses.
Nessie, how many times do I have to link you to the various quotes?

Also, that you misread that as Vrba being 'the dude' rather than Muller surprises me, but, it probably shouldn't....
You were talking about Vrba and then use the term dude, how am I supposed to know that now refers to Mueller?
The links to kula's testimony and to Muller's description are already in this very thread, do you want me to post them, again?

I have already cited the statement from Muller about Himmler's visit. Do you want me to cite it again?
I have done a search of "Himmler" in this thread and nowhere have you linked to a quote about his visit.
I could cite Vrba saying he indeed drew the floor plan, on the stand, at the zundel trial, assuming that citing his testimony in the trial is insufficient for you. Is it really insufficient for you? Are you really that opposed to due diligence? Must the cited source be spoon fed to you?
Yes, from now on, you name, link and quote. I do not trust your claims any more.

Re: Kula Columns

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2025 4:25 pm
by Nessie
HansHill wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:28 am
Nessie wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:14 am
....Your claim is the same as claiming that when witnesses describe a mass shooting, but they vary in the type of gun used, that means the witnesses all lied, there was no gun, or mass shooting....
Now this, is an actual logical fallacy,a false equivalency.

Revisionists agree that shooting is a viable murder weapon, and do not attack the viability of "guns" as such. Rather Revisionists can accept that shootings can and did occur, and spend their efforts to ascertain shootings as Genocide, or not.

Assessing the technical and documentary record of a mythical zyklon column =/= assessing the utilisation of X or Y gun
A gas chamber is also a viable means to kill people, so it is comparable to a gun, so there is no false equivalence. You claim that because people do not describe a gas chambers to your satisfaction, therefore they do not exist. Your opinion does not determine if something, that is viable, existed or not.

Re: Kula Columns

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2025 6:20 pm
by HansHill
Nessie wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 4:25 pm
A gas chamber is also a viable means to kill people, so it is comparable to a gun, so there is no false equivalence. You claim that because people do not describe a gas chambers to your satisfaction, therefore they do not exist. Your opinion does not determine if something, that is viable, existed or not.
To correct you, Zyklon pellets would be a potentially viable murder weapon, but without an introduction and extraction mechanism, along with physical residues of their presence in the chamber, what you're left with is a bullet and no gun.

You better have a really convincing way of describing how to accelerate that bullet to lethal velocities!

Re: Kula Columns

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2025 6:37 pm
by Stubble
Nessie wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 4:22 pm
Stubble wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:26 am
Nessie wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:16 am

You said



That reads Vrba is the dude. Please start to link to, name and directly quote the witnesses.
Nessie, how many times do I have to link you to the various quotes?

Also, that you misread that as Vrba being 'the dude' rather than Muller surprises me, but, it probably shouldn't....
You were talking about Vrba and then use the term dude, how am I supposed to know that now refers to Mueller?
The links to kula's testimony and to Muller's description are already in this very thread, do you want me to post them, again?

I have already cited the statement from Muller about Himmler's visit. Do you want me to cite it again?
I have done a search of "Himmler" in this thread and nowhere have you linked to a quote about his visit.
I could cite Vrba saying he indeed drew the floor plan, on the stand, at the zundel trial, assuming that citing his testimony in the trial is insufficient for you. Is it really insufficient for you? Are you really that opposed to due diligence? Must the cited source be spoon fed to you?
Yes, from now on, you name, link and quote. I do not trust your claims any more.
I've given you the Himmler quote in other threads Nessie.

I will provide it again. It is in 'The Death Factory: Document on Auschwitz' on page 158. 142 if I recall correctly from memory in that Polish copy I linked you.

Vrbs's testimony in the Zundel trial starts on page 1,244. He references Muller repeatedly in this trial. In the very beginning he credits Muler as one of his main sources.

On page 1,479 Vrba says that he indeed drew that plan beginning at 10-15 mark on the margin and going to the 25-30 mark on the margin.

Now, if we are being honest (and we should) then it is my opinion that you want me to source previously established and sourced quotes and to source every quote I make, not because you don't find me trustworthy (I am) but, because you want to hamper my posting.

You can feel free to not engage with my posts, but, I am not going to run around like a chicken with my head cut off sourcing well established or previously vetted quotes for you.

These quotes are indeed there, and you can indeed check them.

I also liklnked you to an article titled 'The Lies, Slips, Bungles and Perjuries of Filip Mueller, Professional Witness of Auschwitz-Birkenau'

https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... -of-filip/

Which actually contains not only 2 of the pertinent quotes in question, but, provides cited source.

Now, initially when I linked this article, rather than examining it or vetting it, you dismissed it. Perhaps you should consider at least reading it...

Re: Kula Columns

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:16 pm
by Nessie
HansHill wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 6:20 pm
Nessie wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 4:25 pm
A gas chamber is also a viable means to kill people, so it is comparable to a gun, so there is no false equivalence. You claim that because people do not describe a gas chambers to your satisfaction, therefore they do not exist. Your opinion does not determine if something, that is viable, existed or not.
To correct you, Zyklon pellets would be a potentially viable murder weapon, but without an introduction and extraction mechanism, along with physical residues of their presence in the chamber, what you're left with is a bullet and no gun.

You better have a really convincing way of describing how to accelerate that bullet to lethal velocities!
Multiple witnesses describe a viable means to introduce and extract Zyklon B pellets, and a document corroborates the presence of mesh insertion devices.

Why should I believe your personal incredulity about the viability of that device, over all the contemporaneous corroborating evidence it worked?

That would be like believing an opinion about descriptions of a gun, were not of a gun that could be fired, over all the evidence a shooting took place.

Re: Kula Columns

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:42 pm
by Nessie
Stubble wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 6:37 pm
Nessie wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 4:22 pm
Stubble wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 11:26 am

Nessie, how many times do I have to link you to the various quotes?

Also, that you misread that as Vrba being 'the dude' rather than Muller surprises me, but, it probably shouldn't....
You were talking about Vrba and then use the term dude, how am I supposed to know that now refers to Mueller?
The links to kula's testimony and to Muller's description are already in this very thread, do you want me to post them, again?

I have already cited the statement from Muller about Himmler's visit. Do you want me to cite it again?
I have done a search of "Himmler" in this thread and nowhere have you linked to a quote about his visit.
I could cite Vrba saying he indeed drew the floor plan, on the stand, at the zundel trial, assuming that citing his testimony in the trial is insufficient for you. Is it really insufficient for you? Are you really that opposed to due diligence? Must the cited source be spoon fed to you?
Yes, from now on, you name, link and quote. I do not trust your claims any more.
I've given you the Himmler quote in other threads Nessie.

I will provide it again. It is in 'The Death Factory: Document on Auschwitz' on page 158. 142 if I recall correctly from memory in that Polish copy I linked you.
You said;

"Dude (as in Mueller) said he was in the krema for Himmler's visit, this is impossible because he was demonstrably at buna"

The quotes you previously provided, when I was talking about Vrba are here.

viewtopic.php?p=2917#p2917

You failed to cite those quotes as by Mueller, and then called me a jackass for thinking they were Vrba. Why did you give me quotes from Mueller, when I had been talking about Vrba? This why you need to;

LINK, NAME and QUOTE.

Where does Mueller say he was inside a Krema for Himmler's visit? You quote Mueller as saying

"the entrance to the crematorium enclosure", then "We were in the room containing the clothes of persons who had been executed"

So not the Krema itself, in the enclosure of the Krema, so that reads he was in one of the barracks documents record were erected for property for the special action.
Vrbs's testimony in the Zundel trial starts on page 1,244. He references Muller repeatedly in this trial. In the very beginning he credits Muler as one of his main sources.

On page 1,479 Vrba says that he indeed drew that plan beginning at 10-15 mark on the margin and going to the 25-30 mark on the margin.
"Rough ground plan". That explains why it is not accurate. It was rough and based on what someone told someone else.
Now, if we are being honest (and we should) then it is my opinion that you want me to source previously established and sourced quotes and to source every quote I make, not because you don't find me trustworthy (I am) but, because you want to hamper my posting.

You can feel free to not engage with my posts, but, I am not going to run around like a chicken with my head cut off sourcing well established or previously vetted quotes for you.

These quotes are indeed there, and you can indeed check them.

I also liklnked you to an article titled 'The Lies, Slips, Bungles and Perjuries of Filip Mueller, Professional Witness of Auschwitz-Birkenau'

https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... -of-filip/

Which actually contains not only 2 of the pertinent quotes in question, but, provides cited source.

Now, initially when I linked this article, rather than examining it or vetting it, you dismissed it. Perhaps you should consider at least reading it...
You have made this very confusing by quoting people without saying who you were quoting, after I or you have named someone else and you have mixed up threads. If that is how disorganised and mixed up your are normally, no wonder you start to find the witnesses to be incredulous.

This thread is about Kula columns, which you were going to provide me with evidence that the floors of the Kremas never had anything attached to them.

Re: Kula Columns

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2025 10:57 pm
by Stubble
Nessie wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 8:42 pm
Stubble wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 6:37 pm
Nessie wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2025 4:22 pm

You were talking about Vrba and then use the term dude, how am I supposed to know that now refers to Mueller?



I have done a search of "Himmler" in this thread and nowhere have you linked to a quote about his visit.



Yes, from now on, you name, link and quote. I do not trust your claims any more.
I've given you the Himmler quote in other threads Nessie.

I will provide it again. It is in 'The Death Factory: Document on Auschwitz' on page 158. 142 if I recall correctly from memory in that Polish copy I linked you.
You said;

"Dude (as in Mueller) said he was in the krema for Himmler's visit, this is impossible because he was demonstrably at buna"

The quotes you previously provided, when I was talking about Vrba are here.

viewtopic.php?p=2917#p2917

You failed to cite those quotes as by Mueller, and then called me a jackass for thinking they were Vrba. Why did you give me quotes from Mueller, when I had been talking about Vrba? This why you need to;

LINK, NAME and QUOTE.

Where does Mueller say he was inside a Krema for Himmler's visit? You quote Mueller as saying

"the entrance to the crematorium enclosure", then "We were in the room containing the clothes of persons who had been executed"

So not the Krema itself, in the enclosure of the Krema, so that reads he was in one of the barracks documents record were erected for property for the special action.
Vrbs's testimony in the Zundel trial starts on page 1,244. He references Muller repeatedly in this trial. In the very beginning he credits Muler as one of his main sources.

On page 1,479 Vrba says that he indeed drew that plan beginning at 10-15 mark on the margin and going to the 25-30 mark on the margin.
"Rough ground plan". That explains why it is not accurate. It was rough and based on what someone told someone else.
Now, if we are being honest (and we should) then it is my opinion that you want me to source previously established and sourced quotes and to source every quote I make, not because you don't find me trustworthy (I am) but, because you want to hamper my posting.

You can feel free to not engage with my posts, but, I am not going to run around like a chicken with my head cut off sourcing well established or previously vetted quotes for you.

These quotes are indeed there, and you can indeed check them.

I also liklnked you to an article titled 'The Lies, Slips, Bungles and Perjuries of Filip Mueller, Professional Witness of Auschwitz-Birkenau'

https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... -of-filip/

Which actually contains not only 2 of the pertinent quotes in question, but, provides cited source.

Now, initially when I linked this article, rather than examining it or vetting it, you dismissed it. Perhaps you should consider at least reading it...
You have made this very confusing by quoting people without saying who you were quoting, after I or you have named someone else and you have mixed up threads. If that is how disorganised and mixed up your are normally, no wonder you start to find the witnesses to be incredulous.

This thread is about Kula columns, which you were going to provide me with evidence that the floors of the Kremas never had anything attached to them.
I need to stop posting before I drink coffee, I'll grant that. It lead to a cross post this morning.

I can empathize with your point of view regarding specificity regarding quotes. I will make an effort to be more clear.

I'm still trying to access the 1966 study of the cellars of Krema III. I want to link you to source, the source. So far, direct link to source is elusive.

You are correct that this thread is about kula columns. The slight diversion came as a result of you saying that Mr Muller was a reliable witness when I pointed out his incredibly flawed description of the columns. He is demonstrably a liar.

Re: Kula Columns

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2025 9:54 am
by Nessie
Kula's description of the columns;

https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/sho ... nt?id=3894

"...net posts to dump the contents of the Zyklon cans into the gas chambers. They were about three-meter tall posts with a square cross-section (about 70 cm). Such a post was made of three nets placed one inside the other. The outer net was made of wire (3 mm in diameter), strengthened on square timbers (50 mm by 10 mm). Such square timbers were placed in all corners of the post. They were joined on the top and on the bottom with the same square timber. Each mesh in the net was about 45 sq mm. The second net was constructed in the same way and placed inside the first one, about 150 mm apart. Each mesh in that net was about 25 sq mm. In the corners, the two nets were connected with iron bars. The post was empty inside, made of a thin zinc sheet, whose cross-section was about 150 sq mm. It had a cone-shaped ending on the top and an even, square base on the bottom. Square metal bars were soldered onto thin posts made of sheet metal, about 25 mm from the edges of the post. A finely meshed net (one mesh was about 1 sq mm) was spread on the metal bars. The net ended at the base of the cone. From there upwards, it transitioned into a sheet metal frame that reached the top of the cone. The contents of the Zyklon can were dumped from above onto the distribution cone. That allowed for an even distribution of the Zyklon on all four walls of the post. After the gas had dissipated, the whole middle post was taken out and the silica was removed. The air ducts of the gas chamber were hammered into the walls of the chamber. The vents were covered with zinc sheets, which had circular holes in them."

Mueller's description;

https://archive.org/details/three-years ... up?q=metal

"Down the length of the room concrete pillars supported the ceiling. However, not all the pillars served this purpose: for there were others, too. The Zyclon B gas crystals were inserted through openings into hollow pillars made of sheet metal. They were perforated at regular intervals and inside them a spiral ran from top to bottom in order to ensure as even a distribution of the granular crystals as possible. Mounted on the ceiling was a large number of dummy showers made of metal. These were intended to delude the suspicious on entering the gas chamber into believing that they were in a shower-room. A ventilating plant was installed in the wall; this was switched on immediately after each gassing to disperse the gas and thus to expedite the removal of corpses."

They are clearly describing the same thing, in the same location. Kula goes into more detail, since he knows more about its construction. They corroborate each other, which along with the other evidence, such as the document pertaining to Krema II, is evidence to prove there was such a device.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0430.shtml

"4 wire mesh introduction devices"

Re: Kula Columns

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2025 10:42 am
by Stubble
Nessie wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 9:54 am Kula's description of the columns;

https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/sho ... nt?id=3894

"...net posts to dump the contents of the Zyklon cans into the gas chambers. They were about three-meter tall posts with a square cross-section (about 70 cm). Such a post was made of three nets placed one inside the other. The outer net was made of wire (3 mm in diameter), strengthened on square timbers (50 mm by 10 mm). Such square timbers were placed in all corners of the post. They were joined on the top and on the bottom with the same square timber. Each mesh in the net was about 45 sq mm. The second net was constructed in the same way and placed inside the first one, about 150 mm apart. Each mesh in that net was about 25 sq mm. In the corners, the two nets were connected with iron bars. The post was empty inside, made of a thin zinc sheet, whose cross-section was about 150 sq mm. It had a cone-shaped ending on the top and an even, square base on the bottom. Square metal bars were soldered onto thin posts made of sheet metal, about 25 mm from the edges of the post. A finely meshed net (one mesh was about 1 sq mm) was spread on the metal bars. The net ended at the base of the cone. From there upwards, it transitioned into a sheet metal frame that reached the top of the cone. The contents of the Zyklon can were dumped from above onto the distribution cone. That allowed for an even distribution of the Zyklon on all four walls of the post. After the gas had dissipated, the whole middle post was taken out and the silica was removed. The air ducts of the gas chamber were hammered into the walls of the chamber. The vents were covered with zinc sheets, which had circular holes in them."

Mueller's description;

https://archive.org/details/three-years ... up?q=metal

"Down the length of the room concrete pillars supported the ceiling. However, not all the pillars served this purpose: for there were others, too. The Zyclon B gas crystals were inserted through openings into hollow pillars made of sheet metal. They were perforated at regular intervals and inside them a spiral ran from top to bottom in order to ensure as even a distribution of the granular crystals as possible. Mounted on the ceiling was a large number of dummy showers made of metal. These were intended to delude the suspicious on entering the gas chamber into believing that they were in a shower-room. A ventilating plant was installed in the wall; this was switched on immediately after each gassing to disperse the gas and thus to expedite the removal of corpses."

They are clearly describing the same thing, in the same location. Kula goes into more detail, since he knows more about its construction. They corroborate each other, which along with the other evidence, such as the document pertaining to Krema II, is evidence to prove there was such a device.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0430.shtml

"4 wire mesh introduction devices"
You know what, those statements are both already in the thread, and they are different from one another, fundamentally, in description of both construction and operation. There are yet 2 other descriptions in the thread that are also different.

Perforated sheet metal and wire mesh are different. A spiral ramp and a core screen are different. Square and round are different...

Those are, uh, not the same buddy.

Re: Kula Columns

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2025 11:26 am
by HansHill
Nessie wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 9:54 am
Kula's description of the columns;

Mueller's description;

They are clearly describing the same thing
Interesting you omitted Chazan and Phishko's description of the columns.

>B-but those two witnesses are misremembering!

I think all 4 are misremembering. What now?

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0430.shtml

"4 wire mesh introduction devices"
Explain to me what you think this document shows. Be very succint and precise (because I already know the answer, and if you prattle on I'll simply ignore your response and give everyone the answer).

Re: Kula Columns

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2025 11:40 am
by Nessie
Stubble wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 10:42 am
Nessie wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 9:54 am Kula's description of the columns;

https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/sho ... nt?id=3894

"...net posts to dump the contents of the Zyklon cans into the gas chambers. They were about three-meter tall posts with a square cross-section (about 70 cm). Such a post was made of three nets placed one inside the other. The outer net was made of wire (3 mm in diameter), strengthened on square timbers (50 mm by 10 mm). Such square timbers were placed in all corners of the post. They were joined on the top and on the bottom with the same square timber. Each mesh in the net was about 45 sq mm. The second net was constructed in the same way and placed inside the first one, about 150 mm apart. Each mesh in that net was about 25 sq mm. In the corners, the two nets were connected with iron bars. The post was empty inside, made of a thin zinc sheet, whose cross-section was about 150 sq mm. It had a cone-shaped ending on the top and an even, square base on the bottom. Square metal bars were soldered onto thin posts made of sheet metal, about 25 mm from the edges of the post. A finely meshed net (one mesh was about 1 sq mm) was spread on the metal bars. The net ended at the base of the cone. From there upwards, it transitioned into a sheet metal frame that reached the top of the cone. The contents of the Zyklon can were dumped from above onto the distribution cone. That allowed for an even distribution of the Zyklon on all four walls of the post. After the gas had dissipated, the whole middle post was taken out and the silica was removed. The air ducts of the gas chamber were hammered into the walls of the chamber. The vents were covered with zinc sheets, which had circular holes in them."

Mueller's description;

https://archive.org/details/three-years ... up?q=metal

"Down the length of the room concrete pillars supported the ceiling. However, not all the pillars served this purpose: for there were others, too. The Zyclon B gas crystals were inserted through openings into hollow pillars made of sheet metal. They were perforated at regular intervals and inside them a spiral ran from top to bottom in order to ensure as even a distribution of the granular crystals as possible. Mounted on the ceiling was a large number of dummy showers made of metal. These were intended to delude the suspicious on entering the gas chamber into believing that they were in a shower-room. A ventilating plant was installed in the wall; this was switched on immediately after each gassing to disperse the gas and thus to expedite the removal of corpses."

They are clearly describing the same thing, in the same location. Kula goes into more detail, since he knows more about its construction. They corroborate each other, which along with the other evidence, such as the document pertaining to Krema II, is evidence to prove there was such a device.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0430.shtml

"4 wire mesh introduction devices"
You know what, those statements are both already in the thread, and they are different from one another, fundamentally, in description of both construction and operation. There are yet 2 other descriptions in the thread that are also different.

Perforated sheet metal and wire mesh are different. A spiral ramp and a core screen are different. Square and round are different...

Those are, uh, not the same buddy.
They both say there were multiple metal pillars with holes in them, that were designed such that when Zyklon B was poured in, it was distributed evenly through the pillar. Perforated metal and wire mesh, are not so different. They both describe an inner and outer part to the pillar. They describe something that would perform the same function, of letting gas pass through the small gaps. Mueller is not saying the entire pillar was round.

If you showed people the model column that was displayed here;

https://www.rom.on.ca/whats-on/exhibiti ... dence-room#

...and then asked them a couple of years later to describe that column, they would do so using different words, so that the descriptions would not match perfectly. Witnesses are good at the basics, there were pillars made of metal to drop the Zyklon B into, and poor at remembering and describing the details. Your ignorance of witnesses leads you to make mistakes about what they said.

Re: Kula Columns

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2025 11:55 am
by Nessie
HansHill wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 11:26 am
Nessie wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 9:54 am
Kula's description of the columns;

Mueller's description;

They are clearly describing the same thing
Interesting you omitted Chazan and Phishko's description of the columns.

>B-but those two witnesses are misremembering!

I think all 4 are misremembering. What now?
They are all likely to be misremembering, as we all do, when asked to describe something we saw, months if not years later. You mistakenly think witnesses who are telling the truth should all be able to recollect details with a high degree of accuracy. Multiple studies and experiments with witnesses find that is not the case. Get together with family or friends and ask them to describe an event from years ago and see how much variance in detail there is. Depending on how well they saw the event and how good their memory and recall is, some will do better than others. Kula had the most knowledge and gave the best, most detailed description. You have not even checked to see if witnesses saw the columns, or if they are just repeating what they were told about them.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0430.shtml

"4 wire mesh introduction devices"
Explain to me what you think this document shows. Be very succint and precise (because I already know the answer, and if you prattle on I'll simply ignore your response and give everyone the answer).
In isolation, a room fitted with "4 wire mesh introduction devices" is evidence that the room has 4 metal apparatuses, used to insert something into the room. The "4 wooden covers" suggest something to cover over the hole used to introduce whatever is being inserted into the room.

When you reply and tell me the answer, please include the evidence from witnesses, documents or other evidential source, contemporaneous to the operation of the Kremas in 1943-4, that backs up your conclusion.

Re: Kula Columns

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2025 12:00 pm
by HansHill
Nessie wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 11:55 am

In isolation, a room fitted with "4 wire mesh introduction devices" is evidence that the room has 4 metal apparatuses, used to insert something into the room. The "4 wooden covers" suggest something to cover over the hole used to introduce whatever is being inserted into the room.
Perfectly incorrect, and that is not what this document shows.

1) Pressac mistranslated the word. “Drahtnetzeinschiebevorrichtung” = “wire net sliding device”

2) Pressac himself seemingly didn’t consider it “evidence” because of his famous retreat to “criminal traces”, meaning this isn't anything "in isolation" as you put it, according even to Pressac.

3) Nor did Van Pelt, who didn’t bother use this document in the Irving trial, because Van Pelt is smart.

4) Literature of this time contains multiple references to “wire” “mesh” “screen” “sliding” “devices” for exmaple, to act as a mesh to slide behind (or infront of) a screen or opening - these wire devices are in keeping with the literature at the time.

5) These can be understood as being safety features for the operation of the morgues, for example a mesh sliding grill to be slid over the intake or outlets in the ventilation system.

From Samuel Crowell:

Criminal Trace #8 4 Dratnetzeinschiebvorrichtung
and
Criminal Trace #9 4 Holzblenden

Since these two elements on the inventory agree in number, and were written in, it is assumed by all parties that their function is connected.

Blenden are simply shutters, and may be made from either steel or wood. They were commonly used in anti-gas shelters in order to make an opening gas tight, such as a window, or any other opening [Source: GL39, 111; GL40, 22ff; GL40, 26]. A benign interpretation is possible, therefore it is not a criminal trace.

Further on this point, Pressac [ATO, 425ff] provides several photographs of shutters, which are identified as the gassdichten Fenster (or Türen) of Crematoria IV and V. These shutters are generally identical in size, shape, and construction to ordinary wooden Blenden as can readily be seen by consulting the literature cited above, and they are also of the right size for emergency exits. Thus gassdichten Fenster (or Türen ), Blenden and Holzblenden, and wooden shutters are all the same thing. This is important not only because it demonstrates the propensity of the Birkenau construction workers and engineers to describe things by unconventional names, but also because it helps put Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung in context.

Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung is a neologism, and we cannot offer a definitive explanation. Pressac speculates that it represents a wire mesh device whereby Zyklon B was "induced" into the extermination gas chamber, but there is no material corroboration for this. We offer the following observations to support our inference:

1) At least two advertisements depict wire mesh screens in the anti-gas shelter literature, one depicts a screen behind an open shutter. [Source: BL42, v]

2) The anti-gas shelter literature contains an advertisement for wire mesh [Drahtnetz]. [Source: BL42, v]

3) According to the anti-gas shelter literature, all windows and other openings require some kind of mesh, netting, grating or grille [Rost, Gitterstäbe, Geflecht von Draht]. [Source: LB 182, 183; GL40 26; BL40, 263]

4) The Auschwitz work order Nr. 353 dated April 27, 1943 [ATO, 441] contains an order for "12 stücke Fenstergitter 50 x 70 cm" which is accepted as a reference to wire mesh screens or grilles for the 12 gassdichten Fenster (or Türen), noted above as identical to Blenden and Holzblenden.

5) Therefore, we can propose that the Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung bear a relationship to the Holzblenden similar to the relationship of the Fenstergitter to the gassdichten Fenster (or Türen ) of Crematoria IV and V.

6) In addition, the literature specifies that such openings must be available for emergency egress. Hence, we hypothesize that these inserts must be removable. [Source: S 5, LDB 174ff, 182, 183]

7) There are several references in the anti-gas shelter literature to "Schieber" which serve the function of something that slides in and blocks, filters, or mediates a space (Absperrschieber, Rosettenschieber, Aufbläseschieber). All of these characterize a "Schieber" as something that is slid into something else, none of them describe a device that is slid into something else so that something else can be slid into it. [Source: advertisement, BL42, V] Therefore, we conclude that the characterization of Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung as a "wire mesh induction device" is semantically incorrect.

8 Finally, the Auschwitz work order Nr. 78 dated March 11, 1943 [ATO, 440] contains an order in Polish "na wykonanie zaslon i kontowek dla krematorium II /BW 30/ z tresci ktorego wynika, ze dla wykonania tego samowienia zuzyto gaze druciana i druciana plecionke." which can be translated as "for the manufacture of screens with scantlings [or screens with edges] for Crematorium II /BW 30/ the gist of which is [z tresci ktorego wynika] that wire gauze and wire mesh are to be used to meet the order."

The above order is in Polish because the original order is not available. According to Pressac, (ATO 438), someone at the Auschwitz Museum borrowed the document for home study and didn't return it. This is the only document missing, hence Pressac had to rely on a Polish language abstract prepared for the Höß trial and notarized by Jan Sehn. However, it seems clear that the order is significant in defining the nature of the Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung. The reference to screens is not a reference to induction devices, and indeed, they sound like the screens for emergency exits discussed earlier [LBD 174-177]. If our rendering of the admittedly vague Polish is incorrect, it would be helpful if the document was returned to the Museum where it belongs.

Our hypothesis, then, is that the Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung were simply removable wire mesh screens that were placed into openings that the Holzblenden were designed to cover. The corroboration for this inference derives from the points from the literature noted above. A benign interpretation is possible, therefore it is not a criminal trace.

Finally, it should be noted that Pressac himself has observed that the roof of Morgue #1 of Crematorium II (for which these 4 pairs were designated) shows only two holes in its largely collapsed but still intact roof (ATO, 436). Therefore, in whatever manner these 4 pairs of Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung and Holzblenden were meant to be used, they could not all have been used exclusively in the roof of Morgue #1 of Crematorium II. This fact weakens Pressac's interpretation concerning their construction and intent.