The CODOH Revisionist Forum

SanityCheck wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2025 3:44 am

Stubble wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2025 3:34 am

SanityCheck wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2025 3:29 am

That overwhelmingly happened in the western borderlands annexed in 1939-1940, not in territory which had been fully Soviet up to 1939. There was unsurprisingly also much less anti-German resistance in the western borderlands in 1941.

I've seen footage of barbarossa where flowers were flung.

Yes, it happened famously in Austria. It also happened on barbarossa.

During 'Barbarossa', the Germans had to traverse the western borderlands to reach the pre-1939 Soviet border and fully Sovietised territory. There were some cases of flowers and peasant bread-and-salt greetings in Soviet Ukraine, but they were far, far less common than in recently annexed western Ukraine.

The distinction between the annexed western borderlands and old Soviet territory was considerable in countless regards. To use Belarus as an example, as late as the first half of 1944, Soviet partisan strength was twice as great in eastern, pre-1939 Soviet Belarus as in western, pre-1939 Polish Belarus. And many of the partisan units operating in western Belarus had been pushed westwards in a deliberate show-of-force move, to reassert Soviet power. In western Belarus, they were also competing with the Polish Armia Krajowa, and indeed the Polish-Soviet partisan war in 1943-44 saw more clashes between these two forces than with the Germans. It was one of many de facto civil wars going on in the annexed western borderlands by this time.

Stubble wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2025 3:58 am Polish history during the war gets pretty wild. All in all history on the eastern front is not my strong point. I've also never understood it really.

Again, I find it 'odd' that germans would turn into animals past some physical demarcation some place.

In the einsatzgruppen reports the people are just happy to be able to go to church and stuff after the Germans rolled through for example. They also provide names of prominent soviets and stuff like that. They tell the Germans were the Russians kept their files...

/shrug

After that, the Germans killed everyone and rolled around in their blood or something?

Please, can you give me some reading that covers this niche.

SanityCheck wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2025 4:41 am

Stubble wrote: ↑Sat Jan 25, 2025 3:58 am Polish history during the war gets pretty wild. All in all history on the eastern front is not my strong point. I've also never understood it really.

Again, I find it 'odd' that germans would turn into animals past some physical demarcation some place.

In the einsatzgruppen reports the people are just happy to be able to go to church and stuff after the Germans rolled through for example. They also provide names of prominent soviets and stuff like that. They tell the Germans were the Russians kept their files...

/shrug

After that, the Germans killed everyone and rolled around in their blood or something?

Please, can you give me some reading that covers this niche.

Karel C. Berkhoff, Harvest of Despair. Life and Death in Ukraine Under Nazi Rule. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2004 - about the territory of Reichskommissariat Ukraine, so overlapping with western Ukraine and Soviet Ukraine

You can find a PDF of the PhD version online. There are quite a few open-access books, dissertations and articles available, the Soviet Union and regions are listed from Rowe-McCulloch onwards if you use find to go down this page.
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... ndary.html

The occupied Soviet Union is a really big place, with many regions having 1-6 million inhabitants, e.g. northern Russia - 1 million, Crimea - fell below 1 million but started there. Often with quirks and peculiarities, depending on ethnicities. The Baltic states were all 1-3 million population.

Army Group Centre had 6 million inhabitants remaining in 1942, and straddled Soviet Belarus and central Russia. That was partisan central, almost literally, but also had the Lokot republic aka Kaminski brigade, and a Russian-on-Russian civil war between Soviet and anti-Soviet collaborators.

There isn't a modern synthesis across the whole USSR in English, there isn't a monograph in English on Soviet POWs, the modern studies of Soviet partisans are better in German and French (Bogdan Musial and Masha Cerovic) than English (Kenneth Slepyan).

I do also recommend

Olena Stiazhkina, Zero Point Ukraine: Four Essays on World War II (Stuttgart: Ibidem, 2021)

This sets the scene in the 1930s and continues after 1945 to show the impact and influence of the occupation/war in sometimes amusing ways (the strange popularity of Tarzan movies captured in Germany with Soviet youth after 1945). The argument is that in some respects the war never ended in Ukraine; she was writing during the long 'frozen conflict' in the Donbas but before the 2022 war.

See if the open access titles satisfy your curiosity or let me know if you have more specific requests for themes.

TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 24, 2025 6:22 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 24, 2025 5:38 pm

TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 24, 2025 10:54 am

What did you refute? What correspondence was the Germans trying to deny what the Allies were saying in their presses? “Write there, you filthy Jew, there is no gas chamber here, we live better here in this camp than you do in the free world”? How would correspondence between individuals provoke a response to extraordinary allegations of extermination?

The suggestion that Nazis would admit to something so serious, that they did not do, and meekly confess, sending some to the gallows, is utterly ridiculous. Millions of Jews not murder, would mean millions still alive, in camps and ghettos in 1944 and that would leave a lot of evidence. Instead, it has left none. Revisionists do not want to deal with those issues and prefer to leave the history of the Jews in Nazi custody with no evidenced conclusion. That is not how any history, or criminal investigation works, making revisionism uniquely flawed.

Its focus is on this point of “Where did they go if they didn't die”. So let's discuss.

I start. What prevented the Germans from taking around 2 million Jews from the General Government to the occupied Soviet territories? Saying that there is no evidence of Western Jews in the occupied USSR is a lie and there is an article on codoh about this.

In fact, not all the Jews transferred to these Reinhardt camps ended their stay there or further east, others moved west again, which is already an affront to the “pure extermination camp” theory.

Were the Germans obliged to evacuate the entire population under occupation before the advance of the Red Army? If not, why did it demand millions of Jews in 1944-45 when the Reich was basically restricted to Germany, Austria and western Poland?

I remember you raising the issue that the Soviets would not be able to house and feed millions of Jews transferred to their territories. I don't understand why, it doesn't seem like millions of Soviets had died by that point, so there wouldn't be too many mouths to feed.

We would be talking about 2 million people, which is what is believed to have been transferred to these camps, do you think that is a lot of people, calculate the size of the occupied territory in relation to the size of the Reich and see if there was enough space to have a few Jews per km2.

You will cling to the problem of the Einsatzgruppen. But as has been discussed on other occasions, even reports claiming regions clean of Jews were a lie, taking these action reports literally is very quick and not even the exterminationist side is so sure about the accuracy and scale of their actions.

See how interesting this story is

“As words of the massacres got out, many Jews fled; in Ukraine, 70 to 90 percent of Jews ran away. This was seen by the leader of Einsatzkommando VI as beneficial, as it would save the regime the costs of deporting the victims further east over the Urals”

Longerich, Peter (2010). Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews, pages 208, 211

So assuming with authority that the only possible explanation is that they were killed and their remains destroyed needs more explanations than the other way around. It is much easier to declare someone with no whereabouts missing than dead, otherwise the number of deaths in a war would be much higher.