Soviet POWs and Jews in the East

[Callafangers]

You say there was no policy and then admit to the Nazi efforts to stop as many of their Jewish prisoners from falling into Soviet hands as possible. But that applies to 1944-5, when the Soviets were advancing and started to liberate, or more accurately find camps and ghettos, since most were left empty.

What about 1939-1944 and the Jews the Nazis arrested and imprisoned during that period? There is zero evidence of releases to the Soviets, either pre 1941, or post the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union.

Where did I "admit to the Nazi efforts to stop as many of their Jewish prisoners..."? Those are your words, not mine.

I think Germany wanted to keep some of its Jews already engaged in labor at work camps by late in the war, since Germany still needed labor. But bringing Jews westward was not evidently part of any widespread regional or state policy. This was simply a trend seen case-by-case in some instances. You're trying to generalize this to suggest it is what should have happened with any sites used as part of Final Solution (resettlement) policy, which is a huge leap in logic given these sites in question served a different purpose.

The Jews who did avoid arrest and escaped east to Soviet occupied territory, are not the c7 million arrested by the Nazis, of whom some did manage to buy their freedom, but c5.5 million went missing and a few hundred thousand were liberated from the remaining camps in 1945. Ghettos being emptied up to 1944, with the majority taking place in 1942-3, aligns with the evidence of huge areas of disturbed ground containing cremated remains. There is no evidence those millions of Jews were handed to the Soviets, or went elsewhere with the Nazi camp system. There is no evidence, once the last ghetto at Lodz closed in August 1944, that there were now c6 million Jews in Nazi camps.

Despite your debunked claims suggesting massive pits held millions of cremated Jews, the fact that the evidence demonstrates corpse material (e.g. from the victims of epidemic disease, executed partisans/combatants from in and around the ghettos) accounting for nothing remotely near the claimed numbers of Jewish deaths (up to low tens of thousands estimated buried at each Belzec and Sobibor, compared to well-over a half million claimed -- and with even less estimated found at Treblinka) should lead any rational inquirer to doubt the official narrative. The position that "missing" Jews were simply moved eastward and then subjected to Soviet control, where their fate became obscured by the Iron Curtain, provides a more coherent explanation.

The idea that the Soviets would have been eager to 'utilize' Jews as resources ignores Stalin's well-documented paranoia and distrust of potential fifth columnists. The treatment of Soviet POWs who were seen as traitors for surrendering to the Germans further supports that Jews, similarly perceived insofar as trust and loyalty, likely faced severe repression, deprivation, and/or worse in Soviet hands.

Of course, the possibility of some covert dealings with the Zionists or other organizations and governments post-war cannot be entirely ruled out, but it is not reasonable to expect any particular amount of evidence would necessarily come of this (many, if not most, of the secrets of the Soviet Union will never become known). It is sufficient to acknowledge that the deceptive patterns of the Soviets (and other stakeholders) and their unchecked powers post-war necessitate that harder forms of evidence (like physical evidence, independent investigations, photographic evidence, impartial trials, free inquiry, clear chains of custody) become critically important. But it is precisely these areas in which the exterminationist view is consistently short.

[SanityCheck]

At best, these considerations altogether create prominent holes in the exterminationist claim of confidence (let alone certainty) that "no Jews ended up there".

First you need evidence for the whereabouts of deported Jews in German occupied territory, starting in December 1941 and through to July 1944 (when the bulk of the Ostland was overrun).

Speculating about Stalinist policies after the reconquest of formerly German occupied territories is irrelevant until you can show there were any 'resettled' Jews to liberate in the first place.

[Numar Patru]

Was Zionism not popular among Jews, in general?

Back then? No. In Poland more than usual, but still not a majority.

[TlsMS93]

At best, these considerations altogether create prominent holes in the exterminationist claim of confidence (let alone certainty) that "no Jews ended up there".

First you need evidence for the whereabouts of deported Jews in German occupied territory, starting in December 1941 and through to July 1944 (when the bulk of the Ostland was overrun).

Speculating about Stalinist policies after the reconquest of formerly German occupied territories is irrelevant until you can show there were any 'resettled' Jews to liberate in the first place.

You don't want to prove the mass graves in the East and the tons of ash where the total reaches 6 million, do you?

[SanityCheck]

At best, these considerations altogether create prominent holes in the exterminationist claim of confidence (let alone certainty) that "no Jews ended up there".

First you need evidence for the whereabouts of deported Jews in German occupied territory, starting in December 1941 and through to July 1944 (when the bulk of the Ostland was overrun).

Speculating about Stalinist policies after the reconquest of formerly German occupied territories is irrelevant until you can show there were any 'resettled' Jews to liberate in the first place.

You don't want to prove the mass graves in the East and the tons of ash where the total reaches 6 million, do you?

Blame Callafangers, he's the one who thinks discussing Stalinist vengeance explains how Jews left Treblinka et al and survived for another two years in unidentified Butlins holiday resorts behind German lines, before Stalin imprisoned them... somewhere (they don't show up in GUVPI, GUlag or special settlement statistics, so go figure).

Technically speaking, there are no sources explaining how Jews left extermination camps, except for known selections/transfers, some local (Treblinka and Sobibor), with some camps like Belzec and Chelmn seeing none whatsoever. Without sources, one cannot write history, only speculation, so denier claims of mass resettlement will never be historical, they cannot be currently since there are no sources* with which to substantiate the claim, describe the procedure of how Jews left the camps, locate their destinations, or show any sign of life between December 1941 and July 1944.

There are plenty of sources for mass murder, mass shootings, mass gassings, mass graves, intact mass graves, mass cremation and the whereabouts of ash and cremains. Attacking this pile of evidence doesn't license speculation, unsourced claims or transform a zero into anything positive. None of the big claims made by revisionism actually help identify the whereabouts of the deportees. And you guys know this deep down, but don't care. Which is fine, but perhaps realise this is ultimately why you can't revise history if you can't offer a positive history.


*speculations about immaculate cover-ups amount to 'dog ate ALL my homework' excuses, they aren't in fact sources to substantiate the claim.

[Nessie]

... necessitate that harder forms of evidence (like physical evidence, independent investigations, photographic evidence, impartial trials, free inquiry, clear chains of custody) become critically important. But it is precisely these areas in which the exterminationist view is consistently short.

Really. Where is your evidence from witnesses, documents etc of millions of Jews the Nazis arrested 1939 to 1944, ending up on the Soviet side of the eastern front?

[Callafangers]

Blame Callafangers, he's the one who thinks discussing Stalinist vengeance explains how Jews left Treblinka et al and survived for another two years in unidentified Butlins holiday resorts behind German lines, before Stalin imprisoned them... somewhere (they don't show up in GUVPI, GUlag or special settlement statistics, so go figure).

Technically speaking, there are no sources explaining how Jews left extermination camps, except for known selections/transfers, some local (Treblinka and Sobibor), with some camps like Belzec and Chelmn seeing none whatsoever. Without sources, one cannot write history, only speculation, so denier claims of mass resettlement will never be historical, they cannot be currently since there are no sources* with which to substantiate the claim, describe the procedure of how Jews left the camps, locate their destinations, or show any sign of life between December 1941 and July 1944.

There are plenty of sources for mass murder, mass shootings, mass gassings, mass graves, intact mass graves, mass cremation and the whereabouts of ash and cremains. Attacking this pile of evidence doesn't license speculation, unsourced claims or transform a zero into anything positive. None of the big claims made by revisionism actually help identify the whereabouts of the deportees. And you guys know this deep down, but don't care. Which is fine, but perhaps realise this is ultimately why you can't revise history if you can't offer a positive history.


*speculations about immaculate cover-ups amount to 'dog ate ALL my homework' excuses, they aren't in fact sources to substantiate the claim.

As always, the demand for more evidence of Jewish resettlement is only a transparent attempt to shift the burden of proof away from the glaring holes of the exterminationist worldview. The claim is that millions of Jews were systematically murdered and their bodies disposed of in mass graves or cremated... but when excavations that should have been the "final nail" in revisionism came instead to much better align with very limited corpse disposal from ghettos and the like, exterminationists like SC/Terry don't even bother to debate the science and numbers any longer (where is Muehlenkamp? Hans?), instead leaning all-into the missing documentation for Jewish relocation in key areas. Nevermind the reasonable expectation for concrete evidence of at least a reasonable fraction of the claimed Jewish corpse remains at any alleged 'Holocaust' site -- SC wants us instead to mourn over missing documentation and to disregard any notion that victorious powers suppressed, omitted, or otherwise manipulated records effectively, despite all signs pointing firmly in this direction.

SC asserts there are "plenty of sources for mass murder, mass shootings, mass gassings, mass graves, intact mass graves, mass cremation and the whereabouts of ash and cremains." But we have seen his "plenty" of sources and the quality standards and vetting processes (and lack thereof) involved in including any of these sources on-the-record. Notice that SC didn't directly address the conspicuous shortcomings of exterminationism:

...[the victors'] unchecked powers post-war necessitate that harder forms of evidence (like physical evidence, independent investigations, photographic evidence, impartial trials, free inquiry, clear chains of custody) become critically important. But it is precisely these areas in which the exterminationist view is consistently short.

Clearly, SC's dismissal of the reasoning that Jews were brought further east has become desperate. The lack of direct evidence from December 1941 to July 1944 does not disprove resettlement; rather, it reflects the chaotic conditions of war and the deliberate suppression of information by the victorious Allies, particularly the Soviets. The fact that Soviet records do not mention these Jews does not mean they were not there; it means that Stalin's regime, known for its secrecy and brutality, likely obliterated any such records to conceal their own atrocities against those deemed potential threats or collaborators.

The Soviet Union is, indisputably:

• Ranking at or among the most secretive and deceptive government(s) in history
• Notoriously paranoid and often 'disappearing' its citizens and ethnic minorities
• Developed an 'Iron Curtain' deliberately (and at the precise time of Jews going missing) to prevent flow of information about actions and atrocities
• Controlled Eastern Europe with brutal totalitarianism post-war

The above opens up extraordinary circumstances which must be accounted for on questions of the fate of Jews reportedly sent to the region by Germany. That they did not get logged into GUlag records raises further questions but the fact that one defers to these records at all assumes we have a reliable system of records to pull from, which we absolutely do not, by any reasonable standard for inference. GUlag records being massive do not mean they are reliable, honest or complete.

Altogether, SC's insistence on the 'mass resettlement will never be historical' because 'there are no sources' is a classic case of circular reasoning. If the Allies, particularly the Soviets, had the motive and means to destroy or conceal evidence, then the absence of sources is exactly what one would expect. This is not 'speculation' but a reasonable inference based on the historical behavior of totalitarian regimes.

Moreover, it is worth mentioning that much of the 'key evidence' that Reinhard camps were the "last stop" for Jews has been effectively challenged elsewhere. One important admission from a key official "slipped through the cracks" at Eichmann's trial, from Franz Novak, who was Eichmann's head Transportation Officer. Novak is the man who actually coordinated Jewish transports, including those sent to AR camps. From some of my work at RODOH:

To the question, "What were your duties (transport matters)?", Novak answers:

As an assistant Specialist Officer, I had to draw up the timetables for the specific train journeys and to organize the manner of reporting. For this purpose, I was provided by Guenther with the stations of departure and destination and the number of persons, and I then had to prepare the requisite documents for the Reichsbahn (Reich Railways) about the means of transport, etc. Guenther or Eichmann would then sign these documents. After the timetables were submitted for each specific train journey, I then had to prepare the reports to the Departments concerned.

To the question, "Did Eichmann give orders on his own for deportations, or did he act only on the basis of orders which he had received?", Novak responds:

I have no way of knowing whether Eichmann himself gave orders for deportations or only carried out orders. I can only say that the RSHA was organized along strict military lines, and everyone knew only what he had to know in order to carry out his duties.

To the question, "With which German government authorities, Reich agencies, SS and Security Service offices and NSDAP authorities were you in constant contact when you worked in the Head Office for Reich Security?", Novak replies:

While I was working in the RSHA, I had dealings only with the Reich Transport Ministry and the Reich Railways Eastern Management [Generaldirektion der Ostbahn].

To the question, "Which was the authority of the Reich Government which was in charge of, and responsible for, providing timetables for the evacuation of Jews?", Novak adds:

Responsibility for drawing up timetables for evacuating Jews belonged to the Reich Ministry of Transport, in conjunction with the Head of Transport Matters in the army.

https://www.nizkor.org/franz-novak-01-eichmann-adolf/
https://www.nizkor.org/franz-novak-02-eichmann-adolf/

Key points:

• Eichmann's section (by way of Novak, the Transportation Officer) drafted the initial timetables which then had to be finalized, published, and implemented by the Reich Transport Ministry.
• Jewish evacuations involved timetables coordinated between both the Reich Transport Ministry and the head of transport in the army, proving that Jewish evacuations regularly involved coordination with territories in the East.
• In general, as deportations/evacuations moved further east, they involved Novak (hence, Eichmann's section) less, and the military more.

That such coordination happened at all says these trains kept going. This is the most rational interpretation, and it's really that simple.

Putting it all into perspective, the logical and historical inconsistencies in the exterminationist position are stark: the supposed mass murder without a shred of hard evidence (neither for the alleged murder weapons nor for the scope, scale, and nature of alleged graves); the absence of any significant resistance or uprising among 'victims' walking into anticipated death-chambers; the implausibility of the logistics involved in such an operation; and the convenient lack of any real accountability or transparency from the Allied powers post-war. These factors and inconsistencies have to be measured with the fact that Germany's official, documented, explicit policy was one of transport and resettlement.

It is not the revisionists who need to provide an alternative history; it is the exterminationists who must finally come to terms that their narrative is built on sand. The burden of proof lies with those making the extraordinary claim of genocide without precedent. Until SC can provide the kind of 'unimpeachable' evidence he demands from revisionism, his narrative remains a baseless myth, propped up by propaganda and political agendas.

[Numar Patru]

The fact that Soviet records do not mention these Jews does not mean they were not there; it means that Stalin's regime, known for its secrecy and brutality, likely obliterated any such records to conceal their own atrocities against those deemed potential threats or collaborators.

You've been told this repeatedly, but what the hell -- I'll say it again.

Stalin's regime routinely moved whole populations around the country. It also committed crimes against humanity. It routinely recorded both of these things. We have Stalin's signature on multiple orders to kill innocent people. That he would hedge on reporting hundreds of thousands of Jews and where he moved them beggars belief.

[Callafangers]

The fact that Soviet records do not mention these Jews does not mean they were not there; it means that Stalin's regime, known for its secrecy and brutality, likely obliterated any such records to conceal their own atrocities against those deemed potential threats or collaborators.

You've been told this repeatedly, but what the hell -- I'll say it again.

Stalin's regime routinely moved whole populations around the country. It also committed crimes against humanity. It routinely recorded both of these things. We have Stalin's signature on multiple orders to kill innocent people. That he would hedge on reporting hundreds of thousands of Jews and where he moved them beggars belief.

There are millions who were killed or 'disappeared' by Stalin and the Soviet regime generally which are not directly accounted for in Soviet records, and even if 100% of them were (except 'Holocausted' Jews), there is no reason to believe documents on the treatment of these Jews would necessarily be released.

You merely assume such records would necessarily be created at all, whereas this would not be the case if:

• Stalin preferred this history be erased outright, perhaps recognizing it easier to blame Germany if records are absent
• A deal was made with other Allied nations or Jewish organizations on the transfer of Jews, with secrecy being paramount

The bottom-line is that we cannot trust anything coming from the Soviet Union, especially on questions of such extreme political sensitivity. It is naive to suggest otherwise.

How many times can a nation "cry wolf" before its cries are no longer accepted as evidence? How many ethnic minorities, POWs, etc., can be 'vanished' before the nation doing the 'vanishing' becomes a chief suspect in 'vanishing Jews'? Or, at the very least, is recognized as effective at keeping secrets and quite capable of coordinating covert transports of Jews to other locations, globally?

Revisionists don't need to prove exactly what happened. You can stamp your feet even harder, it doesn't change this. You need to prove they were murdered. Global Jewry and its manipulated masses already agreeing with you does not logically validate your position. You need evidence which you do not have (it does not exist).

[Numar Patru]

There are millions who were killed or 'disappeared' by Stalin and the Soviet regime generally which are not directly accounted for in Soviet records

Great. Name three examples.

You merely assume such records would necessarily be created at all, whereas this would not be the case if:

• Stalin preferred this history be erased outright, perhaps recognizing it easier to blame Germany if records are absent
• A deal was made with other Allied nations or Jewish organizations on the transfer of Jews, with secrecy being paramount

Both of those points are pure speculation. FFS, Stalin signed the Katyn order and still tried to blame Germany. On your second point, you are alleging conspiracy. Can you prove it? No, of course not.

How many times can a nation "cry wolf" before its cries are no longer accepted as evidence? How many ethnic minorities, POWs, etc., can be 'vanished' before the nation doing the 'vanishing' becomes a chief suspect in 'vanishing Jews'? Or, at the very least, is recognized as effective at keeping secrets and quite capable of coordinating covert transports of Jews to other locations, globally?

Again, three such "vanished" groups, and we can have a conversation. I can name dozens of nations of people moved around for which there are ample records.

Revisionists don't need to prove exactly what happened. You can stamp your feet even harder, it doesn't change this. You need to prove they were murdered. Global Jewry and its manipulated masses already agreeing with you does not logically validate your position. You need evidence which you do not have (it does not exist).

You're way out of your depth here. You might have some base level knowledge of Nazi Germany since you love them so much, but you're all wet where the Soviets are concerned.

[Callafangers]

There are millions who were killed or 'disappeared' by Stalin and the Soviet regime generally which are not directly accounted for in Soviet records

Great. Name three examples.

- Holodomor victims (tens of millions, largely undocumented)
- The Great Purge (only an estimated range of total victims exists, with many inferred albeit undocumented)
- Chechens and Ingush (1944; scale not well-known, large gaps in record)
- Soviet POWs (not fully understood, many killed by NKVD, scale not well-known)

We are talking millions here, easily. Moreover, since you will undoubtedly attempt a false equivalence, I will remind you that you must factor in the circumstances unique to a potential Soviet response to mass numbers of Jews previously under German captivity in 1944-5.

You merely assume such records would necessarily be created at all, whereas this would not be the case if:

• Stalin preferred this history be erased outright, perhaps recognizing it easier to blame Germany if records are absent
• A deal was made with other Allied nations or Jewish organizations on the transfer of Jews, with secrecy being paramount

Both of those points are pure speculation. FFS, Stalin signed the Katyn order and still tried to blame Germany. On your second point, you are alleging conspiracy. Can you prove it? No, of course not.

They are indeed speculation but this is made necessary by the fact of Soviet control post-war, which is not to be trusted. Your reference to Stalin's attempts to "blame Germany" do you no favors, for obvious reasons ('disappearing Jews' by whatever means helps his efforts to "blame Germany"; this also concedes the scale of his deceptive nature).

How many times can a nation "cry wolf" before its cries are no longer accepted as evidence? How many ethnic minorities, POWs, etc., can be 'vanished' before the nation doing the 'vanishing' becomes a chief suspect in 'vanishing Jews'? Or, at the very least, is recognized as effective at keeping secrets and quite capable of coordinating covert transports of Jews to other locations, globally?

Again, three such "vanished" groups, and we can have a conversation. I can name dozens of nations of people moved around for which there are ample records.

Yes, how many of those nations you can name had an 'Iron Curtain' of their own? How many in the 20th century and since? Does it weigh into your analysis at all that the Soviet Union is likely the most deceptive, scheming government of all time and that they basically invented the concept of 'show trials'? Strange coincidence that our debate has to center around this nation, out of all others.

Revisionists don't need to prove exactly what happened. You can stamp your feet even harder, it doesn't change this. You need to prove they were murdered. Global Jewry and its manipulated masses already agreeing with you does not logically validate your position. You need evidence which you do not have (it does not exist).

You're way out of your depth here. You might have some base level knowledge of Nazi Germany since you love them so much, but you're all wet where the Soviets are concerned.

Unfortunately for you, I have taken some time to understand the overall nature of Soviet records, including review of lectures from some revered authorities thereof. Their interpretations generally align with mine that these records, in general, cannot be trusted. The scope of reasons and methods for deception are vast and deeply complicate any interpretation of the records therein. With something as central to the postwar environment as the Holocaust, treatment of Jews, etc., the stakes for controlling the narrative are much higher. Altogether, there is no reason to trust these records at face value, and certainly not to assume any omissions are "evidence of absence" of anything at all. The records are, for the most part, a dead-end.

What is not a dead-end is the physical evidence, patterns in testimony, questions on impartiality of the trials, chains of custody, independent investigations, matters of free inquiry, etc. which we can all agree is of huge importance in getting to the truth on any matter. Will you speak to these a bit? It's frustrating seeing so many exterminationists dodge these matters, over and over again.

[Numar Patru]

Great. Name three examples.

- Holodomor victims (tens of millions, largely undocumented)
- The Great Purge (only an estimated range of total victims exists, with many inferred albeit undocumented)
- Chechens and Ingush (1944; scale not well-known, large gaps in record)
- Soviet POWs (not fully understood, many killed by NKVD, scale not well-known)

So we know about all four of your examples because they're all in the Soviet records. What we don't know about, because it isn't in the records, is about hundreds of thousands of Polish Jews ending up in Soviet territory, being dumped their by the Nazis via Aktion Reinhard "Durchgangsläger."

Btw, we know roughly how many were killed in all four of these cases -- because the records have been open for decades now. Holodomor was not "tens of millions"; more like five million. The Great Terror numbered about a million (the Purge was directed at the party leadership). Chechens and Ingush have multiple studies written about them.

You are a deeply unserious person.

We are talking millions here, easily. Moreover, since you will undoubtedly attempt a false equivalence, I will remind you that you must factor in the circumstances unique to a potential Soviet response to mass numbers of Jews previously under German captivity in 1944-5.

Why would this be unique? My whole point is that it would not be unique at all.

They are indeed speculation but this is made necessary by the fact of Soviet control post-war, which is not to be trusted. Your reference to Stalin's attempts to "blame Germany" do you no favors, for obvious reasons ('disappearing Jews' by whatever means helps his efforts to "blame Germany"; this also concedes the scale of his deceptive nature).

You don't get it.

Stalin was convinced that communism was going to be victorious in the end. So he rarely tried to hide what he did. When he did decide to pin the blame on someone else, he knew the truth would ultimately come out. But his whole view of the world as scientifically destined to embrace socialism informs every action he took.

One thing he was most definitely not going to do is make concessions to how he did things where Jews were concerned. He did not give a fuck.

Yes, how many of those nations you can name had an 'Iron Curtain' of their own? How many in the 20th century and since? Does it weigh into your analysis at all that the Soviet Union is likely the most deceptive, scheming government of all time and that they basically invented the concept of 'show trials'? Strange coincidence that our debate has to center around this nation, out of all others.

BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE YOU MORONS SAID THESE JEWS WERE SENT.

Unfortunately for you, I have taken some time to understand the overall nature of Soviet records, including review of lectures from some revered authorities thereof.

You're lying.

[Callafangers]

Great. Name three examples.

- Holodomor victims (tens of millions, largely undocumented)
- The Great Purge (only an estimated range of total victims exists, with many inferred albeit undocumented)
- Chechens and Ingush (1944; scale not well-known, large gaps in record)
- Soviet POWs (not fully understood, many killed by NKVD, scale not well-known)

So we know about all four of your examples because they're all in the Soviet records. What we don't know about, because it isn't in the records, is about hundreds of thousands of Polish Jews ending up in Soviet territory, being dumped their by the Nazis via Aktion Reinhard "Durchgangsläger."

Btw, we know roughly how many were killed in all four of these cases -- because the records have been open for decades now. Holodomor was not "tens of millions"; more like five million. The Great Terror numbered about a million (the Purge was directed at the party leadership). Chechens and Ingush have multiple studies written about them.

You are a deeply unserious person.

The fact that you have to say things like the bolded above shows you lack confidence in your assertions. You could totally, easily humiliate me if you had evidence and valid interpretations on your side. You don't. Lol.

You can say we "know about" the four examples provided but these examples are much different than the situation would reasonably be with any of the Jews in question.

You interpretation that the Soviets seamlessly documented all of the full scope, scale, and nature of their abuses, murders, etc., is laughable, especially for any situation in which they would be even slightly motivated to do otherwise. Moreover, those with conflicted interests have permeated the archives unabated for several generations by now, with the Soviet regime still in-place for decades post-war. Whether Jewish or simply anti-German, there has been plenty of time to manipulate the history. Harder evidence and more reliable forms thereof are, therefore, an absolute necessity. You don't have these, which is why we are talking about the Soviet records at all.

We are talking millions here, easily. Moreover, since you will undoubtedly attempt a false equivalence, I will remind you that you must factor in the circumstances unique to a potential Soviet response to mass numbers of Jews previously under German captivity in 1944-5.

Why would this be unique? My whole point is that it would not be unique at all.

Jews previously held captive by Germany (especially given the political weight ascribed by Western propaganda to the Jewish experience during and after the war) were extremely unique, compared to the other groups listed. The Soviet Union and Stalin would necessarily have been motivated to handle this group differently.

They are indeed speculation but this is made necessary by the fact of Soviet control post-war, which is not to be trusted. Your reference to Stalin's attempts to "blame Germany" do you no favors, for obvious reasons ('disappearing Jews' by whatever means helps his efforts to "blame Germany"; this also concedes the scale of his deceptive nature).

You don't get it.

Stalin was convinced that communism was going to be victorious in the end. So he rarely tried to hide what he did. When he did decide to pin the blame on someone else, he knew the truth would ultimately come out. But his whole view of the world as scientifically destined to embrace socialism informs every action he took.

One thing he was most definitely not going to do is make concessions to how he did things where Jews were concerned. He did not give a fuck.

Your view here is outrageously simplistic. Stalin was acutely aware of the power of history as a tool for shaping public perception and ideology. The Soviet Union engaged in extensive efforts to rewrite history, including altering photographs, censoring documents, and creating propaganda to align with the Party's narrative, whenever and however motivated to do so. This indisputable and largely unmatched history of secrecy, manipulation, and incomplete documentation suggests that records pertaining to the fate of Jews evacuated to the East could very well have been deliberately obscured or destroyed, especially given the geopolitical sensitivities and the desire to attribute atrocities solely to Nazi Germany post-war (also well-established, undeniable).

Yes, how many of those nations you can name had an 'Iron Curtain' of their own? How many in the 20th century and since? Does it weigh into your analysis at all that the Soviet Union is likely the most deceptive, scheming government of all time and that they basically invented the concept of 'show trials'? Strange coincidence that our debate has to center around this nation, out of all others.

BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE YOU MORONS SAID THESE JEWS WERE SENT.

No, that's where they actually were sent, and is unfortunately the source you're relying on for documentation. If you were being more objective, you would have to admit that Soviet documents are a shitshow hardly worth citing for anything at all, once Soviet motivations suggest possible complications.

Unfortunately for you, I have taken some time to understand the overall nature of Soviet records, including review of lectures from some revered authorities thereof.

You're lying.

You have avoided disputing the characterization of the archives which I provided. You did this, obviously, because you either know I am correct or you know nothing and your accusation is merely a defensive outburst.

Watch this and then come back and tell me that the Soviet archives are reliable in general (especially at around 17:00 and also at 20:00; also see 1:12:00 regarding certain archives "NEVER being accessible"):





Given extensive documentation in general in the Soviet Union, some events are able to be "pieced together" however this is necessarily relative to the means and motivations for concealment. Jews originally contained neatly in concentration/quarantine sites in remote areas near to railways is a fairly easy situation to deal with (whether for deprivation, slaughter, or transport), compared to large-scale geographical persecution as seen in the other examples provided. Overall, your defense of the Soviet archives will fail to even get off the ground (which is probably why you resorted to ridicule/accusation immediately, instead of bothering to try).

[Stubble]

I've been watching this back and forth for a bit. I feel the need to mention that I laughed so hard at the 5,000,000 claim regarding the holodomor that I now have monster energy drink in my sinuses.

I'm going to go irrigate them now.

Also, no, the unserious person is the person that says '5,000,000 goyim died in the holodomor tops'.

https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/505743?v=pdf

[Numar Patru]

The fact that you have to say things like the bolded above shows you lack confidence in your assertions. You could totally, easily humiliate me if you had evidence and valid interpretations on your side. You don't. Lol.

Whatever. You never cite anything specific, so it's clear you're just a bullshitter.

You interpretation that the Soviets seamlessly documented all of the full scope, scale, and nature of their abuses, murders, etc., is laughable, especially for any situation in which they would be even slightly motivated to do otherwise. Moreover, those with conflicted interests have permeated the archives unabated for several generations by now, with the Soviet regime still in-place for decades post-war. Whether Jewish or simply anti-German, there has been plenty of time to manipulate the history. Harder evidence and more reliable forms thereof are, therefore, an absolute necessity. You don't have these, which is why we are talking about the Soviet records at all...

Blah, blah, blah. You're very boring.

They are indeed speculation but this is made necessary by the fact of Soviet control post-war, which is not to be trusted. Your reference to Stalin's attempts to "blame Germany" do you no favors, for obvious reasons ('disappearing Jews' by whatever means helps his efforts to "blame Germany"; this also concedes the scale of his deceptive nature).

Quite wrong. If anything, Stalin might have used them as a piece of theater -- "Look how terrible Germany treated these Jews and look how well they're doing now!" He didn't do any such thing -- or even mention they were there. This is so fucking stupid, you might as well just take a victory lap because arguing this someone this ill informed is like kicking someone in a wheelchair.

This indisputable and largely unmatched history of secrecy, manipulation, and incomplete documentation suggests that records pertaining to the fate of Jews evacuated to the East could very well have been deliberately obscured or destroyed, especially given the geopolitical sensitivities and the desire to attribute atrocities solely to Nazi Germany post-war (also well-established, undeniable).

But untrue, again. We have plenty of proof of the Soviets committing atrocities and gleerfully admitting it. They didn't deny mass rape, did they? No, reports were received back in Moscow and the army was told to put an end to it.

You see, we know about other atrocities. You're specially pleading for the case of these Jews, but it's nonsense.

No, that's where they actually were sent, and is unfortunately the source you're relying on for documentation. If you were being more objective, you would have to admit that Soviet documents are a shitshow hardly worth citing for anything at all, once Soviet motivations suggest possible complications.

Duh, ok.

You have avoided disputing the characterization of the archives which I provided. You did this, obviously, because you either know I am correct or you know nothing and your accusation is merely a defensive outburst.

Watch this and then come back and tell me that the Soviet archives are reliable in general (especially at around 17:00 and also at 20:00; also see 1:12:00 regarding certain archives "NEVER being accessible"):

Sure, I'll have a look. But you should point out in the meantime what you think are his most important points.

Ironic that you're relying on a Jewish scholar in this case. Don't you hate Jews?