Kristallnacht

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Numar Patru
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Re: Kristallnacht

Post by Numar Patru »

Callafangers wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2025 7:35 pm Well, you're in a bit of a bind, then, aren't you? If Jews in Germany were against the boycott, why in the hell were Jews internationally not letting them self-determine?
Your point presupposes that one group had control over the other. They didn't.
And if these German Jews really were just too fearful to boycott (rather than recognizing Germany was correct in its concerns about Jewish collective behavior), why then would they not protest vehemently this external pressure (international Jewry) putting them at-risk?
Um, they did. The Centralverein and prominent Jewish business leaders wrote public articles expressing support for the regime and against the boycott.

Do you not know anything about which you speak?
What matters is whether Hitler was right (largely or in part) about the Jews. But of course, that is a conversation you are not willing to have, which exposes your bias outright.
It's a conversation I won't have because it's perverse and absurd.
Some examples:
  • German Jews were disproportionately influential (to a shocking degree) in sectors such as law, media, business, academia, and banking before World War I. They held significant positions in these areas despite being a tiny percentage of the population. The widespread corruption stemming from these sectors led to well-placed resentment among Germans who felt victimized by their own society.
Jewish over-representation in certain sectors is of course true. What you have not demonstrated and are merely alleging are "corruption" and "resentment," particularly among anyone but a small group of motivated antisemites.
[*] Jews used their wealth and influence to control economic matters through major banking families like the Rothschilds and Warburgs. These families sucked the life from Germany through domination of finance and business.
Don't give me generalities. Explain how hyper-inflation in the early 1920s or the economic collapse in 1929 didn't affect German Jews. Otherwise, it's just blather.
[*] Jewish activists were instrumental in the November Revolution of 1918, which led to the abdication of Kaiser Wilhelm II and the establishment of the Weimar Republic. Jewish individuals like Rosa Luxemburg and Kurt Eisner led socialist and communist movements, which tried to overthrow existing governments, causing instability and chaos.
Most Jews were not involved in the revolution. Most Jews gravitated toward the center, particularly the Deutsche Demokratische Partei, which had such a high percentage of Jewish members that it was often referred to as "the Jewish party."
Jews were central to the licentious and morally depraved "Weimar culture," promoting criminal and degenerate behavior and social norms, harming the moral fabric of German society.
Where's your proof that Jews were disproportionately in favor of "criminal and degenerate" behavior? Putting aside for a moment what's bad about Weimar culture, you can't (and haven't) shown that there were not many, many Jews who were opposed to the changes in moral values. You're just assuming.
[*] Jews instigated social unrest and revolutions, both in Germany and abroad, to further their own interests. This is true, for example, of their efforts in Russia and Hungary as well, demonstrating a pattern of behavior aimed at causing broader European instability.
So a small number of Jews being involved in revolutions in a minority of European countries is reason to treat badly the Jews in one country? Make it make sense to me, please.
Jews used their wealth and media control to push for WW1, aiming to benefit Zionist goals. They influenced US and German policies, pressured governments, and fueled revolutionary unrest across multiple nations, drawing Germany into the world war to realign global power in their favor. This was utterly devastating the German people, costing millions of lives.
This is absurd and simply ignores how Germany became involved in WWI. If you're interested in learning why Germany went to war in 1914, I can explain it to you, but you're going to have to put aside the nonsense first.
[*] Jewish influence contributed to the harsh economic terms imposed on Germany at the end of World War I. This was part of a strategy to weaken Germany and benefit Jewish interests internationally. Countless Germans suffered and starved as a result.
Alleged by you but not proved and, again, no proof that German Jews were shielded from any of these negative effects.
Expulsion was warranted and necessary to prevent further harm to the German people, who had already suffered greatly as Jews acquired power and got rich from German suffering.
Even if everything you allege was true -- and it's not -- it wouldn't justify expelling all Jews from any country, and that you believe it's warranted say far fucking more about you than about anything else.
Human beings do not have the right to infiltrate, subvert, and turn the will of a nation against itself, costing the lives and livelihood of the people of that nation, in some parasitic and entitled relationship with a pattern of extraordinarily deadly global consequences. You must face the reality that Jews were a toxic, parasitic element in the nations they have occupied. Germany recognized this, and they were overwhelmingly correct and measured in their interpretation. The balance of morality has been firmly against the Jewish position, both in Germany and abroad.
You're positively revolting.
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TlsMS93
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Re: Kristallnacht

Post by TlsMS93 »

“The Jew is a scoundrel,” said the mother of a Jewish documentary filmmaker who I can’t remember now, explaining that they are involved in illicit businesses with no proven track record.

Now, they accuse Germany of having survived and prospered thanks to the theft of Jewish property. How could 500,000 support a nation of 70 million people with their belongings? Their per capita income would be absurd compared to the natives.
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Callafangers
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Re: Kristallnacht

Post by Callafangers »

Numar Patru wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2025 7:48 pm
Callafangers wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2025 7:35 pm Well, you're in a bit of a bind, then, aren't you? If Jews in Germany were against the boycott, why in the hell were Jews internationally not letting them self-determine?
Your point presupposes that one group had control over the other. They didn't.
It does not presuppose 'control', only infers political alignment.
And if these German Jews really were just too fearful to boycott (rather than recognizing Germany was correct in its concerns about Jewish collective behavior), why then would they not protest vehemently this external pressure (international Jewry) putting them at-risk?
Um, they did. The Centralverein and prominent Jewish business leaders wrote public articles expressing support for the regime and against the boycott.

Do you not know anything about which you speak?
I'm well-aware of the Centralverein and that it actually refutes your own position. If Jews were treated so terribly, how could any of them sincerely support the Nazi regime? You're forced to assume they were secretly terrified and acting entirely out of pants-crapping fear. Nonsense. The Jews were safe in Germany (initially) and the goal was only to have them exit peacefully.
What matters is whether Hitler was right (largely or in part) about the Jews. But of course, that is a conversation you are not willing to have, which exposes your bias outright.
It's a conversation I won't have because it's perverse and absurd.
Argument from incredulity. This is a fallacy.
Some examples:
  • German Jews were disproportionately influential (to a shocking degree) in sectors such as law, media, business, academia, and banking before World War I. They held significant positions in these areas despite being a tiny percentage of the population. The widespread corruption stemming from these sectors led to well-placed resentment among Germans who felt victimized by their own society.
Jewish over-representation in certain sectors is of course true. What you have not demonstrated and are merely alleging are "corruption" and "resentment," particularly among anyone but a small group of motivated antisemites.
It's "of course true"??! Funny, saying so would be considered 'antisemitic' in many times and places. Do you deny the inflation of the German currency, or the devolution of its culture in the Weimar era? Do you deny the suffering these things caused?
[*] Jews used their wealth and influence to control economic matters through major banking families like the Rothschilds and Warburgs. These families sucked the life from Germany through domination of finance and business.
Don't give me generalities. Explain how hyper-inflation in the early 1920s or the economic collapse in 1929 didn't affect German Jews. Otherwise, it's just blather.
Jews held disproportionate wealth, due in part to their positions in finance and other influential sectors. How are you not understanding this?
[*] Jewish activists were instrumental in the November Revolution of 1918, which led to the abdication of Kaiser Wilhelm II and the establishment of the Weimar Republic. Jewish individuals like Rosa Luxemburg and Kurt Eisner led socialist and communist movements, which tried to overthrow existing governments, causing instability and chaos.
Most Jews were not involved in the revolution. Most Jews gravitated toward the center, particularly the Deutsche Demokratische Partei, which had such a high percentage of Jewish members that it was often referred to as "the Jewish party."
The question is not whether "most Jews [in Germany] were involved" but, rather, whether there is any revolution in which Jews were not heavily involved.
Jews were central to the licentious and morally depraved "Weimar culture," promoting criminal and degenerate behavior and social norms, harming the moral fabric of German society.
Where's your proof that Jews were disproportionately in favor of "criminal and degenerate" behavior? Putting aside for a moment what's bad about Weimar culture, you can't (and haven't) shown that there were not many, many Jews who were opposed to the changes in moral values. You're just assuming.
No, it is far from mere assumption. With their tiny percentage of the German population, Jews were prominent in cultural fields like literature, theater, and film during the Weimar period, producing some of the most sexually degenerate and depraved 'artwork' of German history during this time, chipping away at traditional/family values much as has been done in Western cultures of the last century. This is beyond debate.
[*] Jews instigated social unrest and revolutions, both in Germany and abroad, to further their own interests. This is true, for example, of their efforts in Russia and Hungary as well, demonstrating a pattern of behavior aimed at causing broader European instability.
So a small number of Jews being involved in revolutions in a minority of European countries is reason to treat badly the Jews in one country? Make it make sense to me, please.
Jews having overthrown the Russian empire after subverting its many institutions and seeding revolution, killing tens of millions of white Christians as a result, and then conducting the same initial behaviors in Germany is, yes, a very damned good reason to have serious reservations about considering Jews as fellow countrymen. Losing millions of lives (e.g. in world war) and having your currency become so inflated you cannot afford bread can do that to a people.
Jews used their wealth and media control to push for WW1, aiming to benefit Zionist goals. They influenced US and German policies, pressured governments, and fueled revolutionary unrest across multiple nations, drawing Germany into the world war to realign global power in their favor. This was utterly devastating the German people, costing millions of lives.
This is absurd and simply ignores how Germany became involved in WWI. If you're interested in learning why Germany went to war in 1914, I can explain it to you, but you're going to have to put aside the nonsense first.
I don't need your 'explanations' which simply omit the Jewish role and context. If you wish to incorporate these facts and context into your own interpretation, I would be glad to hear it.
[*] Jewish influence contributed to the harsh economic terms imposed on Germany at the end of World War I. This was part of a strategy to weaken Germany and benefit Jewish interests internationally. Countless Germans suffered and starved as a result.
Alleged by you but not proved and, again, no proof that German Jews were shielded from any of these negative effects.
Some German Jews being 'exposed' to some of the effects of Jewish activity does not refute the patterns of behavior among global Jewry. The fact remains that in all nations Jews have occupied which were vulnerable to such forms of manipulation, these forms were carried out with Jews at the very center.
Expulsion was warranted and necessary to prevent further harm to the German people, who had already suffered greatly as Jews acquired power and got rich from German suffering.
Even if everything you allege was true -- and it's not -- it wouldn't justify expelling all Jews from any country, and that you believe it's warranted say far fucking more about you than about anything else.
Nonsense, and it is awful for you to claim so. If a people of a particular affinity behave in a way causing particular problems, especially if a nation's commitments to these people are less than that of the nation as a whole, it makes perfect sense to decide a separation is necessary and warranted. You have no moral standing whatsoever to claim otherwise. It makes you look foolish to try.
Human beings do not have the right to infiltrate, subvert, and turn the will of a nation against itself, costing the lives and livelihood of the people of that nation, in some parasitic and entitled relationship with a pattern of extraordinarily deadly global consequences. You must face the reality that Jews were a toxic, parasitic element in the nations they have occupied. Germany recognized this, and they were overwhelmingly correct and measured in their interpretation. The balance of morality has been firmly against the Jewish position, both in Germany and abroad.
You're positively revolting.
You're a coward, a moron, etc. Kindly go back to ignoring my posts so that I can keep exposing your dishonesty and naivety without having to deal with your immature insults.
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Numar Patru
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Re: Kristallnacht

Post by Numar Patru »

TlsMS93 wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2025 7:56 pm “The Jew is a scoundrel,” said the mother of a Jewish documentary filmmaker who I can’t remember now, explaining that they are involved in illicit businesses with no proven track record.
a

So what?
Now, they accuse Germany of having survived and prospered thanks to the theft of Jewish property. How could 500,000 support a nation of 70 million people with their belongings? Their per capita income would be absurd compared to the natives.
First of all, they were natives.

Second, literally no one makes the accusation you say they make.
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TlsMS93
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Re: Kristallnacht

Post by TlsMS93 »

“Where's your proof that Jews were disproportionately in favor of "criminal and degenerate behavior”?

They themselves confess that they are criminals and degenerates, this is a good starting point for the discussion, don't you think?

They lost their citizenship in 1935 for not having German blood related for a few generations and not all of them lost this, do you know the legal criterion “ius sanguinis”? It applies here, the Nazis just reinforced it.

Of course they claim that Germany was almost bankrupt in 1938 and Goring took advantage of Kristallnacht to cover the German tax deficit with Jewish income and properties.
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Numar Patru
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Re: Kristallnacht

Post by Numar Patru »

TlsMS93 wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2025 8:29 pm They themselves confess that they are criminals and degenerates, this is a good starting point for the discussion, don't you think?
Sure. Give some specific examples.
They lost their citizenship in 1935 for not having German blood related for a few generations and not all of them lost this, do you know the legal criterion “ius sanguinis”? It applies here, the Nazis just reinforced it.
But it's also acknowledged that you can't apply law ex post facto without grossly violating people's rights.
Of course they claim that Germany was almost bankrupt in 1938 and Goring took advantage of Kristallnacht to cover the German tax deficit with Jewish income and properties.
I have literally never seen this claim. Produce some example of it, please.
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Numar Patru
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Re: Kristallnacht

Post by Numar Patru »

Callafangers wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2025 8:13 pm
Did you delete my post?
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TlsMS93
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Re: Kristallnacht

Post by TlsMS93 »

I have already mentioned the mother of a Jew who made a documentary about anti-Semitism. I would have to do some research to find the reference. She argued that Jews earn money without working and participate in shady business deals. Of course, she did not generalize, but she represented a good portion of those who accuse gentiles of being anti-Semitic.

There is a Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Ben Porat in his famous speech about Jewish Bolshevism, Rabbi Yaron Reuven explaining the degeneration of the Weimar Republic and the Jewish participation in it, usury in loans as a Jewish device to collapse nations and how this was even condemned in the Talmud.

Legally speaking, I cannot say whether the Weimar Constitution had any essential clause that violated acquired rights, nor whether this would have been important in the Nazi regime. If we are talking about ex post facto, the Nuremberg trials need to be annulled because people died and had their rights removed in the process.

Wikipedia itself, when discussing the history of the German boycott of Jewish products or even Kristallnacht, mentions this episode.
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Callafangers
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Re: Kristallnacht

Post by Callafangers »

Numar Patru wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2025 8:35 pm
Callafangers wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2025 8:13 pm
Did you delete my post?
I absolutely-the-fuck did not. I have deleted maybe one post (of Eric Hunt) in my entire time as a [backup] Admin, here. Moreover, I think Archie has a way to recover deleted posts, if you insist on this claim.
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Numar Patru
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Re: Kristallnacht

Post by Numar Patru »

No, I won't insist. I have no reason not to believe you. I must have failed to hit "submit."
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Callafangers
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Re: Kristallnacht

Post by Callafangers »

Numar Patru wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2025 8:59 pm No, I won't insist. I have no reason not to believe you. I must have failed to hit "submit."
Sorry to hear it, please try again and re-submit if you would be willing. We may be oppositional to one another on these topics but your contributions are appreciated.
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