Sobibor Mass Graves?

[Bane]

I was having a debate about the lack of “huge” mass graves amongst the alleged death camps with someone and they said that there have been confirmed mass graves in Sobibor. They didn’t provide any evidence or specifics beyond that so I looked it up myself. I couldn’t really find much except for these:

https://www.auschwitz.org/en/museum/new ... s,228.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobibor ... ation_camp

For the Wiki link if you click the Aftermath section and scroll down it has some mentions of mass graves at the end of the The Site part (picture of statue below) and right after the Research part. What are your thoughts?

[Stubble]

non destructive testing with ground penetrating radar also 'against jewish law'? Or just excavation?

Did anyone cry out about the excavations conducted at sites like Masada? Or is it just these less than half a dozen sites that create these issues?

If all of the victims were burned and their cremains mixed with sand, why would there be a mass grave?

Isn't sobibor where the guy said he saw the SS executing people and he remarked on 'the lady in the red dress'? I seem to recall David Irving mentioning that tidbit in the interview for his biography.

If there were any mass graves at any of these sites, we would have known long ago, and pictures would be plastered in every 4th grade social studies book, history book etc. The fact that there aren't speaks volumes.

It's like the 1 extant picture of smoke from treblinka. The railroad worker marked it as odd enough that he snapped a picture. The one picture that we have. Odd that he marked smoke from treblinka odd, ain't it?

[Nessie]

I was having a debate about the lack of “huge” mass graves amongst the alleged death camps with someone and they said that there have been confirmed mass graves in Sobibor. They didn’t provide any evidence or specifics beyond that so I looked it up myself. I couldn’t really find much except for these:

https://www.auschwitz.org/en/museum/new ... s,228.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobibor ... ation_camp

For the Wiki link if you click the Aftermath section and scroll down it has some mentions of mass graves at the end of the The Site part (picture of statue below) and right after the Research part. What are your thoughts?

Online articles and reports on the surveys at Sobibor here;

https://www.spiegel.de/international/ze ... 93733.html

https://www.timesofisrael.com/at-sobibo ... ts-crimes/

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... bor_Poland

https://search.worldcat.org/title/sobib ... /856144176

https://pure.knaw.nl/ws/portalfiles/por ... -BY-NC.pdf

Selection of site survey photos here;

https://www.sobibor-memorial.eu/en/news ... memory/397

Mattogno, Kues and Graf on the camp, see Chapter 5.

https://holocausthandbooks.com/book/sobibor/

[Nessie]

non destructive testing with ground penetrating radar also 'against jewish law'? Or just excavation?

All archaeological work at a grave site needs permissions and not getting permission and disturbing a grave, in any way, is likely illegal in most countries.

Did anyone cry out about the excavations conducted at sites like Masada? Or is it just these less than half a dozen sites that create these issues?

If all of the victims were burned and their cremains mixed with sand, why would there be a mass grave?

The majority of corpses were initially buried. They were then exhumed and cremated when the Nazis became concerned that if discovered, the mass graves would leave too much evidence of their crimes.

Isn't sobibor where the guy said he saw the SS executing people and he remarked on 'the lady in the red dress'? I seem to recall David Irving mentioning that tidbit in the interview for his biography.

If there were any mass graves at any of these sites, we would have known long ago, and pictures would be plastered in every 4th grade social studies book, history book etc. The fact that there aren't speaks volumes.

There are a lot of photos online of what excavations have found at the site. The Nazi cover up ensured there can be no photos of an excavation with hundreds of thousands of bones all lying together in one huge grave.

It's like the 1 extant picture of smoke from treblinka. The railroad worker marked it as odd enough that he snapped a picture. The one picture that we have. Odd that he marked smoke from treblinka odd, ain't it?

That photo is when the main revolt took place and many prisoners escaped.

[Archie]

See Mattogno, Holocaust Handbooks #28 on the AR camps (also #19 on Sobibor). Chapter 5 covers Sobibor archaeology.

https://holocausthandbooks.com/book/the ... or-belzec/

There were some early Communist excavations. Polish archaeologist Kola did core sampling similar to what was done in Belzec. And there have been other more recent follow-ups by Israeli Haimi and others.

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=107

According to Kola, the area of the graves he claims he found are 3,240 sq meters. For 200,000 or so victims, that would be 62 bodies per sq meter. This is not quite as absurd as Belzec or Treblinka since the scale of killing is much lower for Sobibor, but it's still unrealistic. The number buried there was not anywhere close to what they say.

Kola estimated 7 very irregularly shaped graves and in four of them, including the largest, he reports saponified corpses along with cremains.

[TlsMS93]

If there were mass burials, it was not on the scale or in the circumstances alleged. As for why they exhumed and cremated, just look at Goebbels' diary, where, after losing the Katyn area to the Soviets, they would propagandize that it was the Germans who did it and that is how it happened, so any deaths around German structures were crucial to prevent this further campaign of atrocity from damaging the nation's morale. So exhuming corpses and cremating them proves nothing under the specific circumstances of that war against an enemy with no qualms about using the most vile propaganda possible.

[fireofice]

According to Kola, the area of the graves he claims he found are 3,240 sq meters. For 200,000 or so victims, that would be 62 bodies per sq meter.

Although it should be noted that it's claimed only about 80,000 were buried before the cremations started. See the chart which includes Sobibor here:

https://holocaustencyclopedia.com/locat ... raves/685/

[Bane]

See Mattogno, Holocaust Handbooks #28 on the AR camps (also #19 on Sobibor). Chapter 5 covers Sobibor archaeology.

https://holocausthandbooks.com/book/the ... or-belzec/

There were some early Communist excavations. Polish archaeologist Kola did core sampling similar to what was done in Belzec. And there have been other more recent follow-ups by Israeli Haimi and others.

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=107

According to Kola, the area of the graves he claims he found are 3,240 sq meters. For 200,000 or so victims, that would be 62 bodies per sq meter. This is not quite as absurd as Belzec or Treblinka since the scale of killing is much lower for Sobibor, but it's still unrealistic. The number buried there was not anywhere close to what they say.

Kola estimated 7 very irregularly shaped graves and in four of them, including the largest, he reports saponified corpses along with cremains.

I think Mattogno sums it up perfectly in regards to the matter in Volume #19 Page 116:

“The only evidence for the alleged gas chamber mass murder of at least 250,000 victims?”’ which the commission’s forensic experts could muster thus consisted of an unrevealed amount of human ashes mixed with sand and some uncharacterized debris from the supposed location of the “gas chambers”!”

[HeiligeSturmV2]

non destructive testing with ground penetrating radar also 'against jewish law'? Or just excavation?

All archaeological work at a grave site needs permissions and not getting permission and disturbing a grave, in any way, is likely illegal in most countries.

First there must be evidence that there is a grave or graves at the site.
That evidence is generally acquired by investigation.
With supposed crime, there should be forensic investigation. (Without political or religious influence)

"In modern times, urban planning and the construction of railroads, highways, etc., frequently encroach on cemetery sites, necessitating disinterment by order of the authorities. Most halakhic authorities permit the transfer of the dead on condition that decent repose for the deceased is provided."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/disinterment
"When permitting the removal of remains, the Rabbis set aside their concerns about n~i1 ?W.l,
humiliation of the dead, trembling at God's judgment, and embarrassment of
the dead or found that they did not apply. Maharshal rules that humiliation of the
dead, does not apply when a body is exhumed and reburied in the same cemetery or even in the
same city. "
https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/site ... huming.pdf
also:
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/articl ... -the-body/

In Poland you need to get a permission from Chief Rabbi of Poland Michael Schudrich.
"Only in recent years has the office of Chief Rabbi Michael Schudrich and a group called Zapomniane (Forgotten) been able to systematically locate the sites of mass burials and mark them for future generations.
They are aided by noninvasive technologies, which allow researchers not to touch or remove the human remains, thus respecting the dictates of Jewish law."
https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-memor ... abor-camp/

Schudrich is a bit selective with research when it comes to who does the research...
"And Poland's chief rabbi, Michael Schudrich, told the BBC the lawsuit was an attempt at "intimidation" of researchers. "
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55996291
(Yad Vashem, called the case "a serious attack on free and open research".
"It's about how history is portrayed and how academics should be free to research that history.")
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55996291

"The technologies, used together with the witness testimony of Jack Pomeranc and local people, helped researchers to identify more than 20 possible mass grave sites in Adampol, according to Caroline Sturdy Colls, a forensic archaeologist who has carried out years of research at the site."

Yes, possible mass grave sites, according to Caroline Sturdy Colls who failed to find any real possible mass graves at Treblinka but claimed to have found mass graves. Caroline didn't want "to be too invasive".
"If you actually find the mass graves, you have to stop." Wonderful investigation indeed.
(See: Treblinka Inside Hitler's Secret Death Camp/Treblinka: Hitler's Killing Machine)

"Poland’s Jewish community reluctantly accepted the government’s decision to exhume the bodies of Jews massacred..."
Jewish law allows exhumation only in very rare, extreme cases and under strict conditions.
The massacre was long remembered with a memorial that falsely blamed the Nazis for killing about 1,600 Jews in the village."
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

"Some forensic excavation was already carried out at Jedwabne in 2001 until it was stopped for fear it violated Jewish religious laws on disturbing graves unnecessarily."
https://www.timesofisrael.com/polish-ma ... ass-grave/

"Scientific analyses of dead bodies – such as autopsies and DNA sampling – are also prohibited under Halacha. Conversely, civil legislation in many countries stipulates that victims of crimes should be recovered regardless of their religious denomination. This therefore creates tensions between governments, religious groups and individuals. This is not a problem unique to Jewish graves but one that persists whenever exhumations are not wanted by religious, cultural or familial groups."
Holocaust victims, Jewish law and the ethics of archaeological investigations
Caroline Sturdy Colls, Kevin Colls
https://ijhmc.arphahub.com/article/69978/

Alex Werber scattered his mothers ashes at Treblinka violating several laws.
"Alex Werber's mother narrowly survived the Holocaust. But in her will she wrote that her ashes should be strewn in Treblinka extermination camp, so that she could be close to her murdered relatives."
https://www.dw.com/en/poland-my-grave-i ... eo-6111124
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2010-11- ... 1c52970000

German boots found at the alleged killing site:

jauo24qrw9k21.jpg (257.59 KiB) Viewed 96 times

[Numar Patru]

{...}

Did you have a point you were making?

[Bane]

{...}

Did you have a point you were making?

Yes it’s that “burial law” is a cheap cop out to not provide the utmost convincing evidence you could produce… the mass graves consistent with the death tolls.

[Numar Patru]

{...}

Did you have a point you were making?

Yes it’s that “burial law” is a cheap cop out to not provide the utmost convincing evidence you could produce… the mass graves consistent with the death tolls.

Yes, the Jews devised burial laws 1,500 years ago just so they could delay exhumations for a genocide that they definitely knew they'd be lying about after those 1,500 years had passed.

Ever heard of Occam's razor?

[Stubble]

Did you have a point you were making?

Yes it’s that “burial law” is a cheap cop out to not provide the utmost convincing evidence you could produce… the mass graves consistent with the death tolls.

Yes, the Jews devised burial laws 1,500 years ago just so they could delay exhumations for a genocide that they definitely knew they'd be lying about after those 1,500 years had passed.

I KNEW IT!

[Nessie]

{...}

Did you have a point you were making?

Yes it’s that “burial law” is a cheap cop out to not provide the utmost convincing evidence you could produce… the mass graves consistent with the death tolls.

The only time the actual graves have not been excavated or otherwise dug into, was the 2011 Staffs Uni survey at TII. Every other site survey has dug into the graves and disturbed remains.