Holocaust Controversies money reward?

[WW2History]

Apparently there is a $1000 reward for anyone who can give one Jew confirmed to be transited through the AR camps.
The AR Camps are Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor.


Stroop Report we see from the Warsaw uprising, Jews were transferred to one of the camps

“Of the total of 56,065 [Jews] caught, about 7,000 were destroyed in the former Ghetto during large-scale operation. 6,929 Jews were destroyed during transportation to T.II; the sum total of Jews destroyed is therefore 13,929."

July 5, 1943, Himmler personally gave the following order:
“The transit camp Sobibor is to be converted into a concentration camp. In the concentration camp a plant for the repair of captured munitions is to be established.“

Jewish historians Adam Rutkowski and Tatiana Berenstein state in an article about Jews at Majdanek:

“Some of the transports from Warsaw reached Lublin by way of Treblinka, where the selection of the deportees took place.”

Anyone else have more evidence for?

[Numar Patru]

You mean other than that Lublin means Majdanek?

[Callafangers]

It's nice that they wait ~80 years and until virtually all potential 'survivors' are long-since dead. This is in addition to the fact that they first waited some ~30-40 years (until the 70s-80s) before historians started asking questions about any of the 'Reinhard' camps in earnest -- long after the Soviet Union had plenty of time to clean up any problematic information and records behind the infamous 'Iron Curtain'. The thing is, the German focus increasingly became about containing Jews as the war progressed (restriction, ghettoization, concentration, then Eastern quarantine) and there is no doubt Stalin continued the same effort after its end. This enabled either:

• Jews being mass slaughtered or left to die by Stalin and his goons (certainly not beyond the range of typical Soviet behavior, demonstrated beyond any doubt whatsoever), or
• a common, coordinated effort to shape the post-war world, simply by 'trimming' certain narrative elements and promoting or exaggerating others.

This latter option would be greatly upheld by Jewish collective/tribal vision and ideology which maintains that there are no 'forbidden tactics' when it comes to the security and future of the Jewish people (this is referred to as "Pikuach Nefesh"). Jews may leverage any power and resources -- including narrative -- if it can be seen to "protect" their people and future (note: the claim of 'self-protection/defense' is often used or abused by power-seekers).

The bottom-line is that unless millions of Jews are unearthed by credible, independent investigators at AR camps (and across Eastern Europe) in the precise locations witnesses claim they were buried (excavations already took place -- these Jews are NOT there), then it necessarily follows that the official German policy on the matter was what actually occurred (that is, Jews were literally sent eastward and increasingly concentrated into quarantine sites which were captured by the Soviets postwar). The documentation supporting this non-genocidal interpretation is abundant but the biased followers of the victors of WW2 insist in the automatic discreditation of any 'Nazi' sources (other than those they claim are speaking 'code words'). I think we have shown, though, it is their own sources that warrant greatest skepticism.

[WW2History]

You mean other than that Lublin means Majdanek?

There is Zofia Leszczynska, she reports that 1,700 Jews left Belzec for Majdanek in October of 1942.

She doesn't have any citation for this though?

Jewish historians Adam Rutkowski and Tatiana Berenstein state in an article about Jews at Majdanek:

“Some of the transports from Warsaw reached Lublin by way of Treblinka, where the selection of the deportees took place.”

Is this from eye witnesses or transfer logs? I assume all of the logs, if any, are destroyed or are not in the archives? At least with Auschwitz we have the Death book for camp 1 and the mortuary book for camp 2.

[Numar Patru]

Is this from eye witnesses or transfer logs? I assume all of the logs, if any, are destroyed or are not in the archives? At least with Auschwitz we have the Death book for camp 1 and the mortuary book for camp 2.

Sorry, guy. You’ll have to do the heavy lifting yourself.

[SanityCheck]

The challenge was to prove 'transit' via the Reinhard camps to the occupied Soviet territories.
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... onist.html

Selections at the Reinhard camps for transfer to other camps within the Generalgouvernement are known for Sobibor and Treblinka and would not count to proving transit to the occupied Soviet territories.

The 1943 Warsaw-Treblinka-Majdanek selections did not go further east, while the majority of the nearly 7000 sent to TII by Stroop died at Treblinka. Aside from survivor testimonies there is a document from the Majdanek end confirming this, but specifying only a few hundred (356 for one transport) registered.

The October 1942 Belzec-Majdanek transport was evidently a garbling in an older study, since the 1991 Majdanek museum history doesn't list it in the appendix on transports. This seems to have been a confusion with a selection for the camp from a transport from the Belzyce ghetto, which otherwise seems to have been directed on to Sobibor.

The 1700 figure is certainly not reflected in the extant No 2 Traffic of the Police Decodes for October 1942, nor in the surviving camp registration materials (prisoner property evidence store and death books). Indeed, Majdanek's total strength did not increase by this number, nor did the number of Jewish inmates, which can be deciphered from the decodes. For more see Tomasz Kranz, Robert Kuwałek, Beata Siwek-Ciupak, ‘Odszyfrowane radiotelegramy ze stanami dziennymi obozu koncentracyjnego na Majdanku (styczeń 1942 – styczeń 1943 r.)’, Zeszyty Majdanka 2008, t. XXIV, pp.201-232, which was once online at the Majdanek Museum website.

Not that this would count to proving the challenge even if there was evidence of transfer from Belzec, since Majdanek was part of the Reinhard network, the selections on the ramp at Lublin for Majdanek while most deportees were sent on to Sobibor shows this, as does the Hoefle telegram. The clean-up crews from Belzec and Treblinka were both later sent to Sobibor when their jobs were done in 1943.

[Archie]

Only $1,000? Come on, guys. Where's that Holocau$t Indu$try money at?

I am not a big fan of challenges and other gimmicks. There have been a lot of these things and it doesn't ever seem to settle anything.

As far as the specifics of this demand, it is intended to sound simple, but it isn't. Most of the sources people use (primary and secondary) don't have much individual-level data. This would actually be quite specialized research and it sounds like more the sort of thing a genealogist might do as opposed to typical historical research.

I actually do think there is some potential for a genealogical approach, but it's not an area that seems to have been explored much on the revisionist side.

[fireofice]

Only $1,000? Come on, guys. Where's that Holocau$t Indu$try money at?

I am not a big fan of challenges and other gimmicks. There have been a lot of these things and it doesn't ever seem to settle anything.

Yeah and in some cases they can say they met it and then sue you if you disagree. That's what happened with the IHR and their $50,000 reward. Although those who like to gloat over that case don't usually mention the sequel to that, where Mel Mermelstein, the guy who sued them previously for the $50,000 reward sued the IHR again for calling him a liar...and then lost that case because the IHR was able to show that he was in fact a liar.

https://holocaustencyclopedia.com/histo ... n-mel/688/

[curioussoul]

It's been proven multiple times. Obviously, these types of cash rewards are just bluster, so they're never going to pay the money. If anything, Kues should be the one to receive it, because he was the first one, to my knowledge, to prove that the Theresienstadt trains that ended up in Minsk/Belarus were transited through Auschwitz and Treblinka.

I'll recap some of his arguments below.

In October, 1942, five trains departed from Theresienstadt with the designations Bt, Bu, Bv, Bw and Bx. These transports have been the subject of some controversy because everything about these trains points to them being directed to Treblinka. In fact, we know with certainty that at least one train from this convoy ended up in Treblinka because famous Treblinka witness Richard Glazar was on one of these transports. He was selected for labor deployment when his train (Bu) stopped at Treblinka, and he later survived the war. Orthodox Holocaust historians such as Miroslav Karny insist that these transports were all exterminated in Treblinka, but historian H.G. Adler changed his mind in 1974 and claimed that these transports ended up in Belarus. He wrote (from Kues):

"On 8 August 1942 a certain Dr. Engineer Jacobi of the General Management Office East [Generalbetriebsleitung Ost] of the German Reich Railway [Deutsche Reichsbahn] wrote to inform the Main Railway Offices in Minsk and Riga, the Reich Railway Head Office, the General Office of the Eastern Railways [Ostbahn] in Cracow and also the General Management Offices in Essen and Munich about the ‘Special trains [Sonderzüge] for resettlers, harvest workers and Jews in the period from 8 August to 30 October 1942′. To the cover letter was attached, among other things, a ‘circulation plan’ [Umlaufplan], which was later partially revised. The following trains, which were supposed to carry each 1,000 people, were assigned for the deportation of Jews (the declared destination Wolkowysk indicates Minsk)."

Adler's primary source for "extermination trains" arriving in Belarus is Isak Grünberg, a Jew from Vienna who was deported directly to Minsk in one of the rare direct transports from Germany to the Occupied Eastern Territories. Grünberg arrived on October 9 or 10, 1942, and described seeing numerous trains arriving with more Jews in Minsk despite the fact that orthodox historiography claims only 2 more trains were routed directly to Minsk from Germany after these dates, one on November 18 and one on November 28. So how is it possible for Grünberg to have witnessed the arrival of numerous Jewish deportation trains in October? Grünberg even expressly mentions Jews arriving from Auschwitz and Theresienstadt, "and probably other camps". The mention of Auschwitz is significant because it's a testimony of Jews in the OET arriving from Auschwitz (one of the "extermination camps") at a time when the camp was supposedly exterminating Jews wholesale in Bunker 2. The fact he mentions Theresienstadt is also crucial, because the abovementioned five Jewish deportation trains left Theresienstadt on October 5, 8, 15, 18 and 22. All supposedly ended up in Treblinka. But did they really? The trains Grünberg saw after arriving in Belarus on October 9 or 10 must have been routed through either Auschwitz or Treblinka and came from Theresienstadt, just as Grünberg mentioned.

Whether or not it's possible to name individual Jews from these trains I do not know, but that was hardly ever the point.

More from Kues' study:
https://codoh.com/library/document/evid ... st-part-2/

[WW2History]

The challenge was to prove 'transit' via the Reinhard camps to the occupied Soviet territories.
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... onist.html

Selections at the Reinhard camps for transfer to other camps within the Generalgouvernement are known for Sobibor and Treblinka and would not count to proving transit to the occupied Soviet territories.



The October 1942 Belzec-Majdanek transport was evidently a garbling in an older study, since the 1991 Majdanek museum history doesn't list it in the appendix on transports. This seems to have been a confusion with a selection for the camp from a transport from the Belzyce ghetto, which otherwise seems to have been directed on to Sobibor.

The 1700 figure is certainly not reflected in the extant No 2 Traffic of the Police Decodes for October 1942, nor in the surviving camp registration materials (prisoner property evidence store and death books). Indeed, Majdanek's total strength did not increase by this number, nor did the number of Jewish inmates, which can be deciphered from the decodes. For more see Tomasz Kranz, Robert Kuwałek, Beata Siwek-Ciupak, ‘Odszyfrowane radiotelegramy ze stanami dziennymi obozu koncentracyjnego na Majdanku (styczeń 1942 – styczeń 1943 r.)’, Zeszyty Majdanka 2008, t. XXIV, pp.201-232, which was once online at the Majdanek Museum website.

Not that this would count to proving the challenge even if there was evidence of transfer from Belzec, since Majdanek was part of the Reinhard network, the selections on the ramp at Lublin for Majdanek while most deportees were sent on to Sobibor shows this, as does the Hoefle telegram. The clean-up crews from Belzec and Treblinka were both later sent to Sobibor when their jobs were done in 1943.

Majdanek isn't considered a Reinhard camp though? It's only the 3 Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka. It can be apart of the same network sure, but if they are saying "Reinhard Camps" it must be the 3 actual camps.

You said:

The 1943 Warsaw-Treblinka-Majdanek selections did not go further east, while the majority of the nearly 7000 sent to TII by Stroop died at Treblinka. Aside from survivor testimonies there is a document from the Majdanek end confirming this, but specifying only a few hundred (356 for one transport) registered.

Is there a log or document for this? Because this is quite literally transporting THROUGH the Reinhard camps.

[SanityCheck]

Majdanek isn't considered a Reinhard camp though? It's only the 3 Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka. It can be apart of the same network sure, but if they are saying "Reinhard Camps" it must be the 3 actual camps.

You said:

The 1943 Warsaw-Treblinka-Majdanek selections did not go further east, while the majority of the nearly 7000 sent to TII by Stroop died at Treblinka. Aside from survivor testimonies there is a document from the Majdanek end confirming this, but specifying only a few hundred (356 for one transport) registered.

Is there a log or document for this? Because this is quite literally transporting THROUGH the Reinhard camps.

Yes, and that's been known since close to the end of the war, there were some selections of some transports at Treblinka and Sobibor for camps nearby or in the May 1943 case still within the Generalgouvernement.

Majdanek aka Lublin was included in the Hoefle telegram, but was a formal Konzentrationslager, not an SS-Sonderkommando like Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka (as well as Kulmhof in the Warthegau).

There is indeed a document for the 356 selected at Treblinka arriving in Majdanek. The catch being the rest of the transport (see the Stroop report) don't show up anywhere else.

The challenge is about the occupied Soviet territories (besetzte Ostgebieten), which did not include the Generalgouvernement.

[HeiligeSturmV2]

Jacob Rozmaryn from Treblinka to Lublin (and to Budzyn)
https://www.ushmm.org/online/hsv/person ... Id=4990475

Henry Frankel from Treblinka to Majdanek
https://www.ushmm.org/online/hsv/person ... Id=4982713

Thaddeus Stabholz
https://www.ushmm.org/online/hsv/person ... Id=4975600

[Numar Patru]

Re-read the thread, please. Deportation to the occupied eastern territories, which is not contiguous with the Generalgouvernment.