The consequences of a lack of relevant training & expertise.

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Scott
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Re: The consequences of a lack of relevant training & expertise.

Post by Scott »

Numar Patru wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2025 2:47 pm
TlsMS93 wrote:
I think even for him, even returning to revisionism at the end of his life was bold, and that was because he had no training in the technique of executing people.

He did no such thing.


The late French pharmacist, Jean-Claude Pressac did some amazing research in the day. However, Revisionists have handily refuted all of his "criminal trace" arguments.

Nevertheless, Pressac expanded our knowledge on the subject, and I think it is fair to claim pharmacist Pressac as an honorary Revisionist.

The more people who read Pressac's (somewhat obscure) works and the arguments generated thereby, the better.

One example of a "criminal trace" that Pressac made was that the SS in wartime did not always purchase commercial Zyklon-B fumigant with the "warning agent" added.

Pressac thought that was a "criminal trace" since he assumed that the only time fumigators would NOT want the acrid "warning agent" added was if they were really up to no good gassing Jews rather than fumigating.

Well, no, Jean-Claude, the Zyklon-B literature published, often in English, by American Cyanamid and Degesch, who manufactured the product, notes that many customers do not prefer the version with the warning agent added because many professional fumigators actually believed it to be LESS reliable and safe than the "clean" variant. Plus, they noted that if requested, the Warning Agent (Warnstoff) adds to the cost.

Wartime Germany was short enough on the fumigant as it is without adding to costs.

This fact revealed before the war by the commercial suppliers that many professional fumigators actually preferred the version of Zyklon-B without the Warning Agent (ohne Warnstoff) because they did not trust this practice, and that the wartime SS usually procured the cheaper version of Zyklon-B, blows Pressac's "criminal trace" argument about this right out of the water.

:D
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Archie
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Re: The consequences of a lack of relevant training & expertise.

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Numar Patru wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2025 2:47 pm
I think even for him, even returning to revisionism at the end of his life was bold, and that was because he had no training in the technique of executing people.
He did no such thing.
Depends on how you define revisionist. To me, he was always broadly revisionist.

In the 1995 Igounet interview, he gave some surprisingly low figures for some of the camps.
Compared to Hilberg’s figures, borrowed from the Poles, here are the figures I obtained. Chelmno: 80 to 85,000 instead of 150,000; Belzec: From 100 to 150,000 instead of 550,000; Sobibor: 30 to 35,000 instead of 200,000; Treblinka: 200 to 250,000 instead of 750,000; Majdanek: less than 100,000 instead of 360,000. In fact, [Marcel] Ruby, while taking pride in Hilberg’s authority, does not take into account the minor corrections of the Polish figures and produces them with their original exaggeration. The emotional coefficient to multiply by varies from 2 to 7 and is on average 4 or 5. This average applies perfectly to Auschwitz.
For Auschwitz, he published an estimate of something like 631,000, also low.

There is no question that he did not believe in the six million version of the Holocaust. And based on the numbers above it seems he didn't believe in 5 or even 4 million. At that point, you are well into revisionist territory.
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Nessie
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Re: The consequences of a lack of relevant training & expertise.

Post by Nessie »

Deliberate thread drift, as revisionists are reluctant to discuss the consequences of their lack of relevant training and expertise.

At least Pressac, the chemist, understood enough about historical research, and logic, to realise that even if he could not get his chemistry to square with the history, that does not therefore mean gassings did not happen.
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AreYouSirius
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Re: The consequences of a lack of relevant training & expertise.

Post by AreYouSirius »

Nessie wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2025 3:43 pm
AreYouSirius wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2025 7:51 am What training and expertise do you possess?
History degree and I was in the police where I was a detective for a few years and completed various witness interview courses, which is why I talk a lot about witness behaviour.
What kind of history degree? A bachelors?

To be honest I was expecting you to describe some fantastic pedigree or list of credentials given that you created this thread to chide some really intelligent and diligent researchers about their supposed “lack” of training and expertise.
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Stubble
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Re: The consequences of a lack of relevant training & expertise.

Post by Stubble »

AreYouSirius wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 7:48 am
Nessie wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2025 3:43 pm
AreYouSirius wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2025 7:51 am What training and expertise do you possess?
History degree and I was in the police where I was a detective for a few years and completed various witness interview courses, which is why I talk a lot about witness behaviour.
What kind of history degree? A bachelors?

To be honest I was expecting you to describe some fantastic pedigree or list of credentials given that you created this thread to chide some really intelligent and diligent researchers about their supposed “lack” of training and expertise.
Oh, you don't see the rub.

See, credentialism only applies to the revisionist side. A 4th grade drop out that works at a cheese sandwich factory is imminently qualified to defend the orthodoxy, because 'it's evidenced', so, no credentials required.
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Nessie
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Re: The consequences of a lack of relevant training & expertise.

Post by Nessie »

My original point has not been refuted. Those without relevant qualifications and experience need to accept they are more likely to make mistakes than those with. Revisionists need a bit more self awareness.
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Re: The consequences of a lack of relevant training & expertise.

Post by AreYouSirius »

Nessie wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 5:31 pm My original point has not been refuted. Those without relevant qualifications and experience need to accept they are more likely to make mistakes than those with. Revisionists need a bit more self awareness.
So is it like a UK bachelors which only requires 3 years of study?

Are you aware that the people with whom you combat on this forum possess more qualifications than you profess to have?
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Re: The consequences of a lack of relevant training & expertise.

Post by AreYouSirius »

Stubble wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 1:58 pm
AreYouSirius wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 7:48 am
Nessie wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2025 3:43 pm

History degree and I was in the police where I was a detective for a few years and completed various witness interview courses, which is why I talk a lot about witness behaviour.
What kind of history degree? A bachelors?

To be honest I was expecting you to describe some fantastic pedigree or list of credentials given that you created this thread to chide some really intelligent and diligent researchers about their supposed “lack” of training and expertise.
Oh, you don't see the rub.

See, credentialism only applies to the revisionist side. A 4th grade drop out that works at a cheese sandwich factory is imminently qualified to defend the orthodoxy, because 'it's evidenced', so, no credentials required.
Ya ain’t wrong!

I was too scared to ever look into this issue prior to last Oct 7th, and when I ended up on the old CODOH forum I was shocked at how in-depth, well-reasoned, and intelligent the revisionist debate and discourse was. Based on all the media and cultural programming instilled in me, I honestly expected to read content from hateful yokels espousing fringe conspiracy theories.

The quality and scientific sound argumentation is likely why revisionism is perceived as so dangerous by entrenched centralized authorities.
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Numar Patru
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Re: The consequences of a lack of relevant training & expertise.

Post by Numar Patru »

What was it about October 7 that made you look into the Holocaust?
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Archie
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Re: The consequences of a lack of relevant training & expertise.

Post by Archie »

AreYouSirius wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2025 9:58 pm
Stubble wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 1:58 pm
AreYouSirius wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 7:48 am

What kind of history degree? A bachelors?

To be honest I was expecting you to describe some fantastic pedigree or list of credentials given that you created this thread to chide some really intelligent and diligent researchers about their supposed “lack” of training and expertise.
Oh, you don't see the rub.

See, credentialism only applies to the revisionist side. A 4th grade drop out that works at a cheese sandwich factory is imminently qualified to defend the orthodoxy, because 'it's evidenced', so, no credentials required.
Ya ain’t wrong!

I was too scared to ever look into this issue prior to last Oct 7th, and when I ended up on the old CODOH forum I was shocked at how in-depth, well-reasoned, and intelligent the revisionist debate and discourse was. Based on all the media and cultural programming instilled in me, I honestly expected to read content from hateful yokels espousing fringe conspiracy theories.

The quality and scientific sound argumentation is likely why revisionism is perceived as so dangerous by entrenched centralized authorities.
A big part of revisionism is simply informing people of what the story actually is, showing what sources it's based on, presenting the claims in terms of arithmetic, etc. It's for us to sound too crazy when often all we are doing is quoting straight from their sources.
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Nessie
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Re: The consequences of a lack of relevant training & expertise.

Post by Nessie »

Archie wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2025 10:56 pm
AreYouSirius wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2025 9:58 pm ....

The quality and scientific sound argumentation is likely why revisionism is perceived as so dangerous by entrenched centralized authorities.
A big part of revisionism is simply informing people of what the story actually is, showing what sources it's based on, presenting the claims in terms of arithmetic, etc. It's for us to sound too crazy when often all we are doing is quoting straight from their sources.
The "centralised authorities", whoever they are supposed to be, perceive conspiracists to be dangerous, because of the hate and mistrust they spread. Revisionism does not produce quality scientifically sound argumentation, instead it produces the logically flawed argument from incredulity. It is revisionist inability to recognise fallacies, that causes them to fall for the Holocaust Denial conspiracy.

History and criminal investigations are conducted by gathering evidence to piece together a chronology of events that reach a proven conclusion. Revisionists cannot do that, so they try to argue certain events cannot have happened, therefore they did not happen, resulting in a non-history with no evidenced chronology leading to a conclusion.
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Stubble
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Re: The consequences of a lack of relevant training & expertise.

Post by Stubble »

Nessie wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 8:22 am
Archie wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2025 10:56 pm
AreYouSirius wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2025 9:58 pm ....

The quality and scientific sound argumentation is likely why revisionism is perceived as so dangerous by entrenched centralized authorities.
A big part of revisionism is simply informing people of what the story actually is, showing what sources it's based on, presenting the claims in terms of arithmetic, etc. It's for us to sound too crazy when often all we are doing is quoting straight from their sources.
The "centralised authorities", whoever they are supposed to be, perceive conspiracists to be dangerous, because of the hate and mistrust they spread. Revisionism does not produce quality scientifically sound argumentation, instead it produces the logically flawed argument from incredulity. It is revisionist inability to recognise fallacies, that causes them to fall for the Holocaust Denial conspiracy.

History and criminal investigations are conducted by gathering evidence to piece together a chronology of events that reach a proven conclusion. Revisionists cannot do that, so they try to argue certain events cannot have happened, therefore they did not happen, resulting in a non-history with no evidenced chronology leading to a conclusion.
After reading and studying TRADOC white papers, I've realized something. The apparatus of state, or central authorities if you prefer, view we the people as a strategic asset and property. The move to prebunking for example, was to 'load narratives' 'before' counter narratives, because you can't make a person believe a lie if they have already been exposed to the truth. This was in a war manual titled 'The Operational Environment (2021-2030)' among other places. Another tactic is to 'flood the zone' meaning that you throw out so much different and varied dis, mis, and mal information that the populace cannot discern the truth from a lie.

At the end of the day, the people that govern you do not do so out of some sense of altruism. They are not doing you a favor. They are not your friends.
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AreYouSirius
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Re: The consequences of a lack of relevant training & expertise.

Post by AreYouSirius »

Nessie wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 8:22 am
Archie wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2025 10:56 pm
AreYouSirius wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2025 9:58 pm ....

The quality and scientific sound argumentation is likely why revisionism is perceived as so dangerous by entrenched centralized authorities.
A big part of revisionism is simply informing people of what the story actually is, showing what sources it's based on, presenting the claims in terms of arithmetic, etc. It's for us to sound too crazy when often all we are doing is quoting straight from their sources.
The "centralised authorities", whoever they are supposed to be, perceive conspiracists to be dangerous, because of the hate and mistrust they spread. Revisionism does not produce quality scientifically sound argumentation,
So you put “centralized authorities” in quotes, casting doubt they exist.

Yet somehow you have insight as to what they think and perceive about supposed conspiracists.

You allege people pointing out obvious and egregious mistruths regarding this historical event spread “hate and mistrust,” even though “trust” regarding this event has never been earned nor seems warranted, and supposed hate is not expressed anywhere in this elevated and well-moderated forum.

I’m glad you took a smattering of history electives in college as part of your 3-year bachelor’s. All that relevant training & expertise you tout is proving super invaluable to this very serious thread here you’ve created.
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Nessie
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Re: The consequences of a lack of relevant training & expertise.

Post by Nessie »

AreYouSirius wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 7:42 pm
Nessie wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2025 8:22 am
Archie wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2025 10:56 pm

A big part of revisionism is simply informing people of what the story actually is, showing what sources it's based on, presenting the claims in terms of arithmetic, etc. It's for us to sound too crazy when often all we are doing is quoting straight from their sources.
The "centralised authorities", whoever they are supposed to be, perceive conspiracists to be dangerous, because of the hate and mistrust they spread. Revisionism does not produce quality scientifically sound argumentation,
So you put “centralized authorities” in quotes, casting doubt they exist.

Yet somehow you have insight as to what they think and perceive about supposed conspiracists.

You allege people pointing out obvious and egregious mistruths regarding this historical event spread “hate and mistrust,” even though “trust” regarding this event has never been earned nor seems warranted, and supposed hate is not expressed anywhere in this elevated and well-moderated forum.

I’m glad you took a smattering of history electives in college as part of your 3-year bachelor’s. All that relevant training & expertise you tout is proving super invaluable to this very serious thread here you’ve created.
Who are the centralised authorities? Evidence they exist.
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Archie
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Re: The consequences of a lack of relevant training & expertise.

Post by Archie »

The insistence on appeal to authority/appeal to credentials is not only based on the false premise that no revisionists have any relevant training, it is especially inappropriate in the field of history. For certain fields (e.g., medicine), there can be a noticeable gulf between professionals and laymen. Getting fully trained in medicine or science is generally too expensive and too much trouble for a layman. But history is of general interest and is relatively accessible to outsiders/non-professionals. In fact, many well-regarded historical works are written by non-academics. Here is a short summary bio for Max Hastings (from Wikipedia).
Sir Max Hugh Macdonald Hastings is a British journalist and military historian,[2] who has worked as a foreign correspondent for the BBC, editor-in-chief of The Daily Telegraph, and editor of the Evening Standard. He is also the author of thirty books, most significantly histories, which have won several major awards. Hastings currently writes a bimonthly column for Bloomberg Opinion and contributes to The Times and The Sunday Times.
He's referred to as a "military historian," yet his background was in journalism. He apparently did not even finish university. It seems a fair number of historical writers have been journalists (foreign correspondents, in particular). And as a rule these types are probably better writers than the average PhD historian.

In thinking about what distinguishes a credentialed historian from a non-credentialed one, here are the things that come to mind.

Time Obviously, if someone is paid to research something and does this full-time, that is a huge difference vs someone doing research in their spare time on top of a normal job.

Access to Sources An academic will have more ready access to sources (digital subscriptions, faculty library privileges, research assistants, etc). Research trips are more feasible (the layman with a regular job would have to use vacation time to visit archives). They have a network of colleagues.

Historical Training The curriculum in a history PhD will teach historical methods. This is fairly minor, imo, since you can easily learn this via self-study.

There are others that could be mentioned, but most of them boil down to time and resources. For instance, a professional historian specializing in a particular area will have studied the relevant languages (although I will say the foreign language exams for history PhDs are quite basic). For the layman, this can be a major barrier, especially for less commonly studied languages. Most laymen will not have the time to make that sort of investment, but it's of course not impossible. Many revisionists have been native German speakers and obviously have way better German than Anglosphere academics. David Irving has very good German which he learned by living in Germany, not through school.

Correlations

The reason appeal to authority is a fallacy is because credentials are neither necessary nor sufficient to argue for a given proposition. It's a fallacy because if the authorities are right, then it should be possible to explain in detail why they are right and that reasoning and evidence should hold up regardless of who is making the argument. However, we don't want to take this idea too far. In fact, some people are more informed than others and on any particular thing most people aren't informed at all. Even on the far-right which often countersignals the establishment, we see the most celebrated thinkers are (surprise!) people with PhDs. Kevin MacDonald, Andrew Joyce, Greg Johnson, Thomas Dalton. That's not an accident.

Human Capital Theory vs Signaling Theory of Education

While there can be a correlation between academic and professional background and quality of research and opinion, it is important to realize there are many exceptions and it probably isn't entirely causal. We see these sorts of relationships in the labor market. Statistically, education correlates with higher earnings. However, part of this is purely a selection effect: people who complete more schooling are smarter to begin with, on average. The average IQ for a high school drop-out might be 90 or something. For college graduates, it's a bit above average, say 110, varying considerably by school and major. Graduate programs are more selective still, although things start to break down a bit here. Engineers typically get "only" a bachelor's degree yet they are on average probably smarter than a middle school teacher who gets a master's in education just to get a salary bump. According to the signaling theory of education, much of the correlation is due to selection effects (especially for brains). If this is the case, then we should certainly not be close-minded about education and professional background.
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