Exterminationist Tactics - part 2

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SanityCheck
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Re: Exterminationist Tactics - part 2

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TlsMS93 wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2025 5:01 pm At that point, practically the entire world was already at war with Germany. What would be the point of launching an entire campaign against these allegations? There are those who would be able to convince them, and this would benefit them, so that if they did not win the war, they could at least negotiate generous terms?

After 1941, Hitler stopped mentioning, for example, the peace proposals he had made up until then. The Allies in Casablanca began to demand the unconditional surrender of the Axis. So nothing would benefit the Germans from a propaganda counteroffensive.

The German Red Cross was accused of being a tool of the Nazi regime when it visited Auschwitz, Terezin and other camps. So even doing something to debunk this would only push the narrative that they were trying to cover up the Holocaust for the German people.
The problem is, the Germans did begin some deflection schemes in 1943, but these revolved around Belsen (exchange prisoners), Theresienstadt and extending from this, the Theresienstadt Family Camp in Birkenau.

The deceptions thus existed, so when in 1944 there was a greater volume of reporting especially about Auschwitz, Nazi press officials like Helmut Suendermann referenced Theresienstadt as a figleaf, which was by then utterly ludicrous given the numbers and range of countries from which deportations had taken place.

The Nazis were like many other dictatorships, arrogant beyond belief in their ability to shape reality for their own people and increasingly indifferent to persuading the rest of the world. The Soviet Union especially under Stalin had a similar problem, but unlike the Third Reich its fellow travellers and direct supporters were far more numerous. Even then, there was still enough awareness in the 1930s-1950s to trigger clashes in the US and France (Dewey Commission on the show trials, Kravchenko and Rousset libel trials, US congressional hearings on Katyn during the Korean War), before Khrushchev's secret speech in 1956 tore the scales from many people's eyes.

From various sources, not least former prisoners who had been amnestied and could emigrate after 1945, there was a not unreasonable level of knowledge of the GULag well before Solzhenitsyn, in specialist circles. Kolyma, Magadan and Pechora were all named in David Dallin and Boris Nicolaevsky's Forced Labor in Soviet Russia (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1947). This knowledge only snowballed in the 1950s with the return of German inmates and others after the post-Stalin amnesties, but was already significant in 1947, and likely could be demonstrated even earlier.

Vice President Henry Wallace visited Magadan and Kolyma in 1944, being shown a Potemkin village version of the complex so he did not associate this with forced labour.

One wonders why the Nazis were even more incompetent than the Soviets, who at least could hoodwink some people some of the time, whereas the Germans couldn't figure out how to explain the disappearance of several million people with a simple Potemkin village style camp in Ukraine or wherever.

But then the Nazis lost, so their incompetence is proven in other regards.
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Re: Exterminationist Tactics - part 2

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SanityCheck wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2025 4:49 pm
.....No, that doesn't prove that all reports of German atrocities from 1933 (early KZs and seizure of power) to 1945 (collapse) were 'coordinated'.....

......they could not control what was published out of Warsaw, Krakow and elsewhere, or what the Polish government-in-exile might document and be able to archive.

......Katyn of course flipped entirely to something to be weaponised against the USSR during the Korean War with US congressional hearings......

.....You seem to struggle with the need to explain series of events. Cherrypicking things doesn't tend to help with providing a serial explanation of how storylines might be reported, or the diversity of sources that accumulate about a particular event....
No True Scotsman fallacy.

Having received two examples of Allied co-ordination and fabrication of atrocity propaganda, Mr Check here rejects them because they weren't co-ordinated enough.

Where this fallacy gets it's name from is insightful and I'll explain:

Sanity Check: Scotsmen don't like marmalade!
Hans Hill: My uncle Seamus likes marmalade and he's a Scotsman!
Sanity Check: Ah well, that doesn't count because, no true Scotsman likes marmalade!

What is illustrated here, is that simply put, no example will be good enough, and they will be conveniently defined out of scope. In our case, the Allies co-ordinating atrocity propaganda doesn't count because the examples weren't co-ordinated enough (?), fit his arbitrary timeline (?), cherrypicked (?) or my sources aren't diverse enough (?)

Know your pilpul!
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Re: Exterminationist Tactics - part 2

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Then you shouldn't use 'coordinated'.

Katyn shenanigans are in any case irrelevant to the origins of reports of mass gassings in the euthanasia centres (which 'broke' in 1940-41) and the camps in Poland (which 'broke' in 1942), since the Germans didn't reveal the Katyn mass graves until April 1943.

British concerns to calm their Soviet ally arguably resulted in a decrease in follow-on reporting of the camps in 1943, as Michael Fleming argues in Auschwitz, the allies and censorship of the Holocaust (2014). The Polish government-in-exile received many more reports about Auschwitz and the ongoing exterminations elsewhere in Poland, and passed these on to the British, but there were few big stories in the press.

The Soviet rupture of diplomatic relations with the Polish government-in-exile meant that the British were often irritated by the PGE and especially did not like the new accusation that the Germans had moved on to begin the extermination of the Polish nation with the Zamosc action, which had involved deporting some of the resettled Poles to Majdanek and Auschwitz. The PGE was pressuring for an Allied declaration along the lines of the UN declaration on the extermination of the Jews on 17 December, 1942, and the British did not want to make another big announcement.

It was in this context that Foreign Office senior official Victor Cavendish-Bentick made a note for the files which contains some problematic stings in the tail *for revisionists*, even if other parts seem at first glance to support them.
In my opinion it is incorrect to describe Polish information regarding German atrocities as “trustworthy.” The Poles, and to a far greater extent the Jews, tend to exaggerate German atrocities in order to stoke us up. They seem to have succeeded.
Mr. Allen and myself have both followed German atrocities quite closely. I do not believe that there is any evidence which would be accepted in a Law Court that Polish children have been killed on the spot by Germans when their parents were being deported to work in Germany, nor that Polish children have been sold to German settlers. As regarding putting Poles to death in gas chambers, I do not believe that there is any evidence that this has been done. There have been many stories to this effect, and we have played them up in P.W.E. rumours without believing that they had any foundation. At any rate there is far less evidence than exists for the mass murder of Polish officers by the Russians at Katyn. On the other hand we do know that the Germans are out to destroy Jews of any age unless they are fit for manual labour.
I think that we weaken our case against the Germans by publicly giving credence to atrocity stories for which we have no evidence. These mass executions in gas chambers remind me of the stories of employment of human corpses during the last war for the manufacture of fat, which was a grotesque lie and led to the true stories of German enormities enormities being brushed aside as being mere propaganda.
Minute of 27 August 1943, cited from Robert Jan van Pelt, The Case for Auschwitz: Evidence from the Irving Trial (p. 127).

The bolded line is more or less identical to the FO file note on the Riegner telegram a year earlier, doubting the telegram's reference of 'extermination with one blow' - "The German policy seems to be rather to eliminate "useless mouths" but to use able bodied Jews as slave labourers" (cited from TNA FO 371/30917, p.93 in my 'Conflicting Signals' article, p.384)

References to gassing had been cut from Allied statements around the UN Declaration of 17 December 1942 in favour of just referring to extermination of unfit Jews and using able bodied Jews as forced labourers. The British and Americans, especially the Foreign Office and State Department, were both quite cautious for the reasons noted by Cavendish-Bentick - stories of industrial mass murder did recall the corpse factory hoax of WWI for the generation which remembered the war.

The British had additional reasons in 1943 to be cautious with reporting of the persecution and murder of Jews. Firstly, they did not want the clamour to 'do something' to rescue Jews to result in opening up Palestine to Jewish refugee immigration en masse. Secondly, as a result of this, they were taking an increasingly negative view of Zionist campaigning in the US to mobilise support for a Jewish state, independently of the rescue issue for Europe.

So the result was that ongoing stories about the persecution and murder of the Jews were shoved back to the inside pages, in shorter articles, by throttling the flow of reports which could be published in the mainstream British press. Specialist newspapers could continue but had little space to dedicate to the issue, while Polish exile newspapers had to juggle the victimisation of Poles by the Germans and Ukrainians, and ran into censorship if they tried making too much of Soviet victimisation.

The mainstream US press wasn't a lot better in 1943 to early 1944. Going by German Foreign Office digests of reports of the extermination of the Jews, the press which could run the most coverage, and most detailed coverage, was the Yiddish press in New York (this is noted in Das Amt und die Vergangenheit, and easily confirmed since the files in question are digitised.) Which suited everyone fine as only Jews would read it, whereas the mainstream press was more dependent on governments-in-exile. The New York Times famously did not subscribe to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency wire service bulletin until 1944 (as noted in Laurel Leff, Buried By The Times).

Both the British Foreign Office and US State Department were also dragging their feet and throwing up arguments about the mechanics of potential war crimes prosecutions after the war (see Arieh Kochavi, Prelude to Nuremberg). They had come under pressure from the governments-in-exile in 1942, and had as usual created a commission (the United Nations War Crimes Commission) to kick the issue into the long grass for a while. It took until 1944-45 and political pressure especially after the Malmedy massacre to overcome opposition and start serious planning. The State Department also hated the pressure it came under to make immigration possible - national quotas were underfulfilled in wartime America - which eventually triggered the scandal leading to the formation of the War Refugee Board in 1944. The British of course hated the whole idea of the WRB after kicking the refugee issue into touch at the Bermuda conference of April 1943. They were even more reluctant by 1944-45 due to the worsening unrest in Mandate Palestine.

So the result was a steady stream of shorter stories, as Leff summarises for 1943 (p.164)
Throughout 1943, the New York Times continued to run stories about the extermination of the Jews inside the paper. Stories about the end of individual ghettos appeared on pages 10 and 5. Stories about the end of entire Jewish communities appeared on pages 2 and 6. Stories that tallied the mounting death toll appeared on pages 9 and 7. Stories
that told of the extension of the murderous campaign to Italy and Bulgaria appeared on pages 8, 35, 4, and 6. A story on the precise methods used at the Treblinka extermination camp appeared on page 11. Stories that contained eyewitness testimony from the just-liberated areas of the Soviet Union appeared on pages 3, 10, and 19. Even the stirring accounts
of the Warsaw ghetto uprising and the rescue of Danish Jews were told almost exclusively inside the newspaper. The breakthrough that World Jewish Congress leaders assumed had occurred when the United Nations confirmed Germany’s extermination campaign had not happened. The plight of the Jews still was not considered important enough for the front page.
and to sum up the coverage (Leff, p.4)
Most tellingly, the Times continued to put stories about the Holocaust inside the paper even after doubts about their authenticity evaporated. Most scholars agree that the truth of the Holocaust was established when the 11 Allied governments confirmed the Final Solution in December 1942. But there is no discernible change in the Times coverage after that. Considering all the wartime stories about Jews, the paper printed six such front-page stories in 1940, seven in 1941, nine in 1942, and seven again in 1943. Only in 1944 did the number climb to 12 front-page stories. Nor did the total number of stories printed jump once the extermination campaign was verified. The Times printed 240 stories about what was happening to the Jews in 1940, 207 in 1941, 139 in 1942, 186 in 1943, and 197 in 1944.
The stories being divided up among 24 affected countries, with some getting almost no coverage but even the best covered getting little, with stories typically revolving around persecution/discrimination followed by deportations. There was undoubtedly more coverage of the round-ups and deportations from France in the second half of 1942 than there was coverage of the Holocaust in Poland, because courier channels from Poland had been disrupted in the early summer of 1942.

A good percentage were 'OSINT' reports recapitulating German and Axis official decrees and declarations in the German and Axis press. This is also true for the Jewish Telegraphic Agency daily bulletins, which also drew heavily on the neutral press or which added in the slighest mention anywhere (on the BBC for example) that might not have warranted a standalone newspaper story. Wartime newspapers being smaller in page count, some of the lack of coverage was down to the general squeeze on space. The Jewish press certainly ran more stories, but the typical Jewish newspaper was a weekly and thus could not run everything anyway.

The other stories were identified for their provenance - this or that government-in-exile, mainly. But comparisons between the mainstream press and JTA bulletins would suggest the mainstream press did not run every communique or announcement of a government-in-exile.

Indeed, there were a number of wartime brochures and books by governments-in-exile which were never reviewed in the British press. One on the Germanisation of Poland likely got sidelined because of the post-Katyn kerfuffle or tensions between the British government and PGE.
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Re: Exterminationist Tactics - part 2

Post by Nessie »

TlsMS93 wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2025 5:01 pm
Nessie wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2025 3:09 pm The Nazis knew they were being accused of mass murders from at least 1942 onwards. If it was "psychological warfare" by the Allies, then why did the Nazis not counter the claims? They could have let the Red Cross into an AR camp in 1943, or a Krema in early 1944.
At that point, practically the entire world was already at war with Germany. What would be the point of launching an entire campaign against these allegations? There are those who would be able to convince them, and this would benefit them, so that if they did not win the war, they could at least negotiate generous terms?

After 1941, Hitler stopped mentioning, for example, the peace proposals he had made up until then. The Allies in Casablanca began to demand the unconditional surrender of the Axis. So nothing would benefit the Germans from a propaganda counteroffensive.

The German Red Cross was accused of being a tool of the Nazi regime when it visited Auschwitz, Terezin and other camps. So even doing something to debunk this would only push the narrative that they were trying to cover up the Holocaust for the German people.
Letting the Red Cross visit an AR camp in 1942-3, and then camps full of millions of Jewish prisoners in 1944, would have put an end to the claims of mass murder.
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Re: Exterminationist Tactics - part 2

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Nessie wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2025 12:40 pm
Letting the Red Cross visit an AR camp in 1942-3, and then camps full of millions of Jewish prisoners in 1944, would have put an end to the claims of mass murder.
I actually partially agree with this. I feel it's a missed opportunity that the Red Cross didn't receive full access to the Birkenau site and all of this rubbish would have been put to bed, however i disagree with the AR part. Because even if they did access AR, given their nature as transit camps with no accommodation etc, you would simply say they visited on an off-day with no Jews present, or something.

But regardless, this is all redundant anyway because the lack of a mass-murder weapon does the job of ending all claims of mass-murder neatly and tidily.
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Re: Exterminationist Tactics - part 2

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HansHill wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2025 4:19 pm
Nessie wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2025 12:40 pm
Letting the Red Cross visit an AR camp in 1942-3, and then camps full of millions of Jewish prisoners in 1944, would have put an end to the claims of mass murder.
I actually partially agree with this. I feel it's a missed opportunity that the Red Cross didn't receive full access to the Birkenau site and all of this rubbish would have been put to bed, however i disagree with the AR part. Because even if they did access AR, given their nature as transit camps with no accommodation etc, you would simply say they visited on an off-day with no Jews present, or something.

But regardless, this is all redundant anyway because the lack of a mass-murder weapon does the job of ending all claims of mass-murder neatly and tidily.
But they visited and still claim that the German Red Cross was a right-hand arm of the regime for propaganda purposes, they say they were not allowed to pass through the Kremas.

They say that Terezin was built precisely to misinform about the Holocaust as a model life for the Jews, so even the exterminationists deny everything we can respond to, and they accuse us with their so-called evidence.

So no, the answer is no, if they allowed people to visit the camps the Holocaust would collapse. They will always ask for more. Where are the millions in the camps in 1944-45?
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Re: Exterminationist Tactics - part 2

Post by Nessie »

HansHill wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2025 4:19 pm
Nessie wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2025 12:40 pm
Letting the Red Cross visit an AR camp in 1942-3, and then camps full of millions of Jewish prisoners in 1944, would have put an end to the claims of mass murder.
I actually partially agree with this. I feel it's a missed opportunity that the Red Cross didn't receive full access to the Birkenau site and all of this rubbish would have been put to bed, however i disagree with the AR part. Because even if they did access AR, given their nature as transit camps with no accommodation etc, you would simply say they visited on an off-day with no Jews present, or something.

But regardless, this is all redundant anyway because the lack of a mass-murder weapon does the job of ending all claims of mass-murder neatly and tidily.
The AR camps were quite small, so impossible to hid anything, especially stinking mass graves, or huge pyres of corpses. An hour visit to show the IRC a shower block, no graves and no pyres, job done.
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Re: Exterminationist Tactics - part 2

Post by TlsMS93 »

Nessie wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2025 7:25 pm
HansHill wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2025 4:19 pm
Nessie wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2025 12:40 pm
Letting the Red Cross visit an AR camp in 1942-3, and then camps full of millions of Jewish prisoners in 1944, would have put an end to the claims of mass murder.
I actually partially agree with this. I feel it's a missed opportunity that the Red Cross didn't receive full access to the Birkenau site and all of this rubbish would have been put to bed, however i disagree with the AR part. Because even if they did access AR, given their nature as transit camps with no accommodation etc, you would simply say they visited on an off-day with no Jews present, or something.

But regardless, this is all redundant anyway because the lack of a mass-murder weapon does the job of ending all claims of mass-murder neatly and tidily.
The AR camps were quite small, so impossible to hid anything, especially stinking mass graves, or huge pyres of corpses. An hour visit to show the IRC a shower block, no graves and no pyres, job done.
Terezin would impose itself on the AR camps, which the Germans built to deny the Holocaust as propaganda, so even if they visited the AR camps nothing would change, even if there were showers they would say they were fake or they had connected them to the water system in advance, would the Red Cross dig up the earth? :lol:

The Germans' word was worth nothing at that time outside Germany and they did not see any advantage in responding to Allied propaganda just to maintain morale, it would even have the opposite effect. If they were insinuating things about you on the street even if you did not know their origin, would you waste sleep and resources trying to explain yourself with rumors? Well, that was what was being spread, pure rumors.
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Re: Exterminationist Tactics - part 2

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TlsMS93 wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2025 7:35 pm The Germans' word was worth nothing at that time outside Germany and they did not see any advantage in responding to Allied propaganda just to maintain morale, it would even have the opposite effect. If they were insinuating things about you on the street even if you did not know their origin, would you waste sleep and resources trying to explain yourself with rumors? Well, that was what was being spread, pure rumors.
On the contrary, the Germans managed to negotiate well enough with the western Allies over POW issues via the ICRC, and also organised exchanges of interned citizens with the US, UK and.... Mandate Palestine. (The latter caused problems when the confirmed Palestinian citizens from Poland arrived with accounts of ghettos, deportations and knowledge of nasty camps.)

The Germans had not helped in 1942 by refusing to explain the whereabouts of civilian internees and deportees, especially Jews. They had 'disappeared' them to territories from which they could not correspond. The ICRC made several demarches about this in 1942, and came close to going public with its concerns, which was rejected in favour of maintaining outward neutrality. Carl Burckhardt of the ICRC had learned through German channels of hearsay of extermination plans, in addition to the direct reports the ICRC had received of mass killings. (This is covered in Jean-Claude Favez, The Red Cross and the Holocaust).

The Germans then relaxed the rules for KZ inmates in late 1942, allowing parcels to be sent if an address was known, and allowing some Jewish prisoners in the Auschwitz complex to send postcards 'home' to Slovakia, Belgium, France, the Netherlands, via the national Jewish councils. So these received postcards from Auschwitz, Birkenau, Jawischowitz and Monowitz, the camps existing in 1942. Slovakian Jews also wrote cards from Majdanek and for a while, from some 'transit' ghettos.

The relaxation regarding postcards and parcels gave rise to efforts to send parcels to known deportees in 1943. Going through World Jewish Congress Portugal records for this, I came across shipment receipt slips for Benedikt Kautsky in Monowitz.

The problem was that only a tiny number showed any sign of life and wrote postcards, the overwhelming majority remained silent and beyond the reach of any correspondence or enquiries. So they had been 'disappeared'.

Compare this with Ostarbeiter, who had the right of correspondence to and from their home regions in Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia. The letters from Germany were often very negative and decreased the willingness to volunteer to almost nil, while letters from Ukraine intercepted by German censors described violent shanghai-ing of labourers in home villages. But nonetheless correspondence was allowed.

Correspondence for Jews *had* been allowed in Poland in 1939-41, including Red Cross letters ('I am alive' brief telegrams/notes). These had been impossible from the Soviet annexed regions but as soon as Distrikt Galizien was formally added, some such letters made it out to the US. Then such correspondence ceased, as did correspondence between Poland and Germany.

All very reminiscent of the denial of right to correspondence for categories of Soviet GULag inmates, and more importantly the utter silence on the whereabouts or fate of those who had been executed in the Great Terror, which prevailed from 1937-41 and beyond.

Also very reminiscent of the sudden radio silence from the Polish officers, policemen and others murdered in the Katyn complex of 1940.

If the German policy had only been resettlement to reservations, camps or ghettos further east, then if they were not actively starving, shooting or gassing the deported Jews, they could at the least have permitted the 'I am alive' Red Cross letters.

If the Germans had deported the Jews to starvation zones further east, but also in the real world case of deportation to extermination camps, then a Potemkin village camp would have been a useful and relatively easy distraction. If they could permit a minority to correspond from Birkenau, they could figure out how to do this further east, thereby shutting up the ICRC to some extent, and adding extra obfuscation or deflection from what they were really doing.

The moral of the story is, whether you intend on committing genocide by killing or starvation, or merely want to expel unwanted populations, remember to allow some insights into where people go, otherwise you're "disappearing" them, in which case you can fully expect to be accused of mass murder (see also: Latin American dictatorships, Stalin's Soviet Union). And you can go down in history as a regime with little competence in PR, despite a much-vaunted Propaganda Ministry.
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Re: Exterminationist Tactics - part 2

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Also, don't have your political leadership and media shriek about 'annihilation' and 'extirpation' of 'the Jewish race in Europe, lest you be misinterpreted in a pre-internet era where there is no troll army to argue that Dolfy should be taken 'seriously, but not literally'.
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Re: Exterminationist Tactics - part 2

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TlsMS93 wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2025 7:35 pm ...

Terezin would impose itself on the AR camps, which the Germans built to deny the Holocaust as propaganda, so even if they visited the AR camps nothing would change, even if there were showers they would say they were fake or they had connected them to the water system in advance, would the Red Cross dig up the earth? :lol:

The Germans' word was worth nothing at that time outside Germany and they did not see any advantage in responding to Allied propaganda just to maintain morale, it would even have the opposite effect. If they were insinuating things about you on the street even if you did not know their origin, would you waste sleep and resources trying to explain yourself with rumors? Well, that was what was being spread, pure rumors.
That is your unevidenced, speculative opinion, which Sanity Check, with evidence, has refuted.
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Re: Exterminationist Tactics - part 2

Post by TlsMS93 »

Nessie wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 6:58 am
TlsMS93 wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2025 7:35 pm ...

Terezin would impose itself on the AR camps, which the Germans built to deny the Holocaust as propaganda, so even if they visited the AR camps nothing would change, even if there were showers they would say they were fake or they had connected them to the water system in advance, would the Red Cross dig up the earth? :lol:

The Germans' word was worth nothing at that time outside Germany and they did not see any advantage in responding to Allied propaganda just to maintain morale, it would even have the opposite effect. If they were insinuating things about you on the street even if you did not know their origin, would you waste sleep and resources trying to explain yourself with rumors? Well, that was what was being spread, pure rumors.
That is your unevidenced, speculative opinion, which Sanity Check, with evidence, has refuted.
What did you refute? What correspondence was the Germans trying to deny what the Allies were saying in their presses? “Write there, you filthy Jew, there is no gas chamber here, we live better here in this camp than you do in the free world”? How would correspondence between individuals provoke a response to extraordinary allegations of extermination?
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Re: Exterminationist Tactics - part 2

Post by Nessie »

TlsMS93 wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 10:54 am
Nessie wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 6:58 am
TlsMS93 wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2025 7:35 pm ...

Terezin would impose itself on the AR camps, which the Germans built to deny the Holocaust as propaganda, so even if they visited the AR camps nothing would change, even if there were showers they would say they were fake or they had connected them to the water system in advance, would the Red Cross dig up the earth? :lol:

The Germans' word was worth nothing at that time outside Germany and they did not see any advantage in responding to Allied propaganda just to maintain morale, it would even have the opposite effect. If they were insinuating things about you on the street even if you did not know their origin, would you waste sleep and resources trying to explain yourself with rumors? Well, that was what was being spread, pure rumors.
That is your unevidenced, speculative opinion, which Sanity Check, with evidence, has refuted.
What did you refute? What correspondence was the Germans trying to deny what the Allies were saying in their presses? “Write there, you filthy Jew, there is no gas chamber here, we live better here in this camp than you do in the free world”? How would correspondence between individuals provoke a response to extraordinary allegations of extermination?
The suggestion that Nazis would admit to something so serious, that they did not do, and meekly confess, sending some to the gallows, is utterly ridiculous. Millions of Jews not murder, would mean millions still alive, in camps and ghettos in 1944 and that would leave a lot of evidence. Instead, it has left none. Revisionists do not want to deal with those issues and prefer to leave the history of the Jews in Nazi custody with no evidenced conclusion. That is not how any history, or criminal investigation works, making revisionism uniquely flawed.
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Re: Exterminationist Tactics - part 2

Post by Numar Patru »

SanityCheck wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2025 9:45 pm Also, don't have your political leadership and media shriek about 'annihilation' and 'extirpation' of 'the Jewish race in Europe, lest you be misinterpreted in a pre-internet era where there is no troll army to argue that Dolfy should be taken 'seriously, but not literally'.
It will be interesting to see how this matter is taken up before international courts vis-a-vis Israel's most recent Gaza campaign. It will be more difficult for Netanyahu et al to duck charges of genocide given the openly eliminationalist rhetoric they engaged in, particularly as the campaign was beginning.
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Re: Exterminationist Tactics - part 2

Post by TlsMS93 »

Nessie wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 5:38 pm
TlsMS93 wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 10:54 am
Nessie wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 6:58 am

That is your unevidenced, speculative opinion, which Sanity Check, with evidence, has refuted.
What did you refute? What correspondence was the Germans trying to deny what the Allies were saying in their presses? “Write there, you filthy Jew, there is no gas chamber here, we live better here in this camp than you do in the free world”? How would correspondence between individuals provoke a response to extraordinary allegations of extermination?
The suggestion that Nazis would admit to something so serious, that they did not do, and meekly confess, sending some to the gallows, is utterly ridiculous. Millions of Jews not murder, would mean millions still alive, in camps and ghettos in 1944 and that would leave a lot of evidence. Instead, it has left none. Revisionists do not want to deal with those issues and prefer to leave the history of the Jews in Nazi custody with no evidenced conclusion. That is not how any history, or criminal investigation works, making revisionism uniquely flawed.
Its focus is on this point of “Where did they go if they didn't die”. So let's discuss.

I start. What prevented the Germans from taking around 2 million Jews from the General Government to the occupied Soviet territories? Saying that there is no evidence of Western Jews in the occupied USSR is a lie and there is an article on codoh about this.

In fact, not all the Jews transferred to these Reinhardt camps ended their stay there or further east, others moved west again, which is already an affront to the “pure extermination camp” theory.

Were the Germans obliged to evacuate the entire population under occupation before the advance of the Red Army? If not, why did it demand millions of Jews in 1944-45 when the Reich was basically restricted to Germany, Austria and western Poland?

I remember you raising the issue that the Soviets would not be able to house and feed millions of Jews transferred to their territories. I don't understand why, it doesn't seem like millions of Soviets had died by that point, so there wouldn't be too many mouths to feed.

We would be talking about 2 million people, which is what is believed to have been transferred to these camps, do you think that is a lot of people, calculate the size of the occupied territory in relation to the size of the Reich and see if there was enough space to have a few Jews per km2.

You will cling to the problem of the Einsatzgruppen. But as has been discussed on other occasions, even reports claiming regions clean of Jews were a lie, taking these action reports literally is very quick and not even the exterminationist side is so sure about the accuracy and scale of their actions.

See how interesting this story is

“As words of the massacres got out, many Jews fled; in Ukraine, 70 to 90 percent of Jews ran away. This was seen by the leader of Einsatzkommando VI as beneficial, as it would save the regime the costs of deporting the victims further east over the Urals”

Longerich, Peter (2010). Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews, pages 208, 211

So assuming with authority that the only possible explanation is that they were killed and their remains destroyed needs more explanations than the other way around. It is much easier to declare someone with no whereabouts missing than dead, otherwise the number of deaths in a war would be much higher.
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