How did the sonderkommando deal with the settled and condensed cyanide in the homicidal gas chambers?

[blake121666]

Green & McCarthy handle the outgassing here:

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... e-science/

And they don't assume a hot room such as I did.

I only vaguely remembered this. At the time, I had the misconceptions that Lueftl had. Namely EXTREMELY long evaporation and diffusion rates. I've since found that to not be the case I thought.

They're handling of the matter here is not bad - and for the whole shebang: gassing, ventilation, ... etc.

Nessie should get to know and cite this rather than his random ventilation data and such.

The only significant disagreement I would have today with this paper is their handling of the time until 100% died. I fall more on the over-30-minute side of that. But it doesn't much matter in their general handling here. Possibly some quibbles with other things here and there also.

There are some other issues here that you seem to have missed.

From the article you linked:

We acknowledge that it is difficult to quantify, but point out that in actuality, the Zyklon B was heated beyond the temperatures assumed in our work.

and one of Green's most prominent citations, the Irmscher paper:

In any event the calculation of relationships could not be made using this procedure in cases in which the humidity in the room is high thereby depositing upon the evaporating surfaces water or snow (depending upon the temperature) which significantly diminish the rate of evaporation.

The first quote I have presented here addresses Green's failure to control for temperature of the pellets themselves, or to reproduce the alleged conditions of the theoretical gassing, that is, his claim that the pellets were pre-heated.

The second quote illustrates from Green's own source, that the results presented could not be made using this procedure when we introduce the variable of humidity - which Green has not controlled for (along with temperature).

Another thing you seem to have missed is Rudolf's responses regarding the humidity issue:

Dr. Green has ignored the fact that the evaporation of HCN from the carrier of Zyklon B is slowed down massively (besonders stark) in the case of high relative humidity in the air as would have been the case in an assumed homicidal gassing. This would have led to a higher amount of Zyklon B to be applied in order to achieve a similar release of HCN in the same period of time.

And subsequently:

Thus, what Green did say is that the AMOUNT of Zyklon B (per volume and gassing) used for both delousing and (alleged) homicidal gassings was similar, whereas I speak of the actual "concentrations of HCN [...] necessary to kill the alleged victims in the time as testified by all 'witnesses.'" These are two different things! Green says it would have been significantly lower, and I showed that it had to be in the same order of magnitude, "basing mainly on the data we can get from capital punishment in the USA." It is these data we have about homicidal gassing -- the only reliable ones that exist -- which is what Green ignores. So I have not misrepresented or misunderstood anything. It is Green who overlooked the difference between applied amount and effective concentration.

I will agree with you that their handling is "not bad" i would even say Green represents the pinnacle of the Orthodox side, and comes across as far more competent than others such as Markiewicz, Bailer, Pressac etc, however for a complete picture you must also reflect upon Rudolf's responses.

He handled your objections. He assumed a dosage for 5-20 g/m3 with only 10% outgassed in 5-15 minutes using the slowest rate for -18C.

He says:

At these buildings, where the large majority of gassings took place, essentially any absolute rate of outgassing could be achieved, at any temperature and humidity, by pouring in sufficient Zyklon.

So he is saying use a larger dosage to account for the humidity. You can wait longer than 10% outgassing as well of course.

5-20 g/m3 for a 504 m3 building would be 2.5-10kg or about 500g - 2.5kg for each of 4 holes.

The room certainly wasn't -18C and humidity is not as big a concern as you might think. The amount outgassed rises exponentially for temperature above that -18C (which is about 0F).

[fireofice]

Here is Rudolf's position on the possibility of removing bodies:

If assuming – against the evidentiary situation – the existence of Zyklon-B introduction devices which allowed the removal of Zyklon B after the end of the gassing, the resulting data do, of course, look dramatically different, see Table 21. Under such circumstances, it might have been possible to enter the “gas chamber” with a gas mask for hard labor already after 30 to 45 minutes, and without a gas mask after one to two hours. This would then lie at least within the range of some less-extreme witness accounts. That explains also why Pressac, van Pelt and Green insist on the existence of these introduction columns, contrary to all physical evidence and despite the lack of any documentary proof and reliable witness testimony. Without those introduction columns, the scenarios described by witnesses regarding a swift removal of the corpses from the “gas chamber” after the gassing are simply impossible. The Zyklon B inside the chamber, which would have kept releasing its poison for quite some time, simply would have prevented a fast, successful ventilation. Yet the claimed swift executions, at times claimed by the same witnesses, are technically impossible with those introduction columns, because the hydrogen cyanide would not have evaporated and dissipated fast enough.

These are, of course, only calculated estimates; if one were to ask me whether I would rely upon these values and enter such a “gas chamber” without a gas mask, I would reply that I preferred to insist upon the performance of a traditional chemical test beforehand. The simple reason for this is that all reliable calculation is rendered impossible by the Zyklon B trapped beneath the bodies, as well as by the wet bodies soaked with hydrogen cyanide. (The Chemistry of Auschwitz, p. 283)

[Nessie]

I would like revisionists to learn more about witness testimony, memory and recollection, so that they do not make so many mistakes regarding the assessment of witness evidence.

I would like exterminationists to learn more about the fallibility of witness testimony, memory and recollection—and also neutrally and dispassionately assess a witnesses’s potential motives or proclivity to embellish or fib—so that they do not fall prey to tall tales when assessing witness statements and whether they are valid artifacts of evidence.

That has already been done. Historians use corroboration to assess truthfulness and understand that accuracy can be poor, especially when testimony is related years after the event.

[HansHill]

He handled your objections. He assumed a dosage for 5-20 g/m3 with only 10% outgassed in 5-15 minutes using the slowest rate for -18C.

He says:

At these buildings, where the large majority of gassings took place, essentially any absolute rate of outgassing could be achieved, at any temperature and humidity, by pouring in sufficient Zyklon.

So he is saying use a larger dosage to account for the humidity. You can wait longer than 10% outgassing as well of course.

5-20 g/m3 for a 504 m3 building would be 2.5-10kg or about 500g - 2.5kg for each of 4 holes.

The room certainly wasn't -18C and humidity is not as big a concern as you might think. The amount outgassed rises exponentially for temperature above that -18C (which is about 0F).

No, it seems you've misunderstood the point that Rudolf has made, so I have no problem to repeat it once more.

1) Green is using Irmscher's figures to arrive at the desired number of tins in his calculations, using Irmscher's rate of outgassing.
2) However, Irmscher's figures do not account for humidity, and indeed he urges us to discard his figures once humidity becomes a variable (which it is).
3) We'll discuss whether humidity is a problem or not

Because of both 1 and 2 above, Green's sleight of hand is to introduce more pellets to produce more gas, which doesn't address the issue at all, that the rate of outgassing is severely suppressed, to the point Green's own source won't even support it. Remember, and this is one of Rudolf's main points - you need to beat, or at least match, the execution times of a US HcN gassing, which we know was outgassing extremely quickly. You cannot keep pace, or indeed outpace (!) this known execution time with slower outgassing.

3)

...humidity is not as big a concern as you might think...

This is also a fallacy, as we have mostly been talking here about ambient atmospheric humidity (of the air) which is already problematic enough for Orthodoxy, however you have not considered the effects of humidity (and indeed moisture) on the pellets themselves. Remember, these pellets are alleged to have been dumped into a damp metal shaft, all clumped together, into a 100% or near 100% humid room. You have not accounted for the self-defeating process of these damp pellets turning soggy, clumping together, getting stuck in the mesh and thus impeding their own outgassing rate even more so. Referring back again to Green's solution, to simply continue pouring more pellets in will only exasperate this process.

[blake121666]

He handled your objections. He assumed a dosage for 5-20 g/m3 with only 10% outgassed in 5-15 minutes using the slowest rate for -18C.

He says:

At these buildings, where the large majority of gassings took place, essentially any absolute rate of outgassing could be achieved, at any temperature and humidity, by pouring in sufficient Zyklon.

So he is saying use a larger dosage to account for the humidity. You can wait longer than 10% outgassing as well of course.

5-20 g/m3 for a 504 m3 building would be 2.5-10kg or about 500g - 2.5kg for each of 4 holes.

The room certainly wasn't -18C and humidity is not as big a concern as you might think. The amount outgassed rises exponentially for temperature above that -18C (which is about 0F).

No, it seems you've misunderstood the point that Rudolf has made, so I have no problem to repeat it once more.

1) Green is using Irmscher's figures to arrive at the desired number of tins in his calculations, using Irmscher's rate of outgassing.
2) However, Irmscher's figures do not account for humidity, and indeed he urges us to discard his figures once humidity becomes a variable (which it is).
3) We'll discuss whether humidity is a problem or not

Because of both 1 and 2 above, Green's sleight of hand is to introduce more pellets to produce more gas, which doesn't address the issue at all, that the rate of outgassing is severely suppressed, to the point Green's own source won't even support it. Remember, and this is one of Rudolf's main points - you need to beat, or at least match, the execution times of a US HcN gassing, which we know was outgassing extremely quickly. You cannot keep pace, or indeed outpace (!) this known execution time with slower outgassing.

3)

...humidity is not as big a concern as you might think...

This is also a fallacy, as we have mostly been talking here about ambient atmospheric humidity (of the air) which is already problematic enough for Orthodoxy, however you have not considered the effects of humidity (and indeed moisture) on the pellets themselves. Remember, these pellets are alleged to have been dumped into a damp metal shaft, all clumped together, into a 100% or near 100% humid room. You have not accounted for the self-defeating process of these damp pellets turning soggy, clumping together, getting stuck in the mesh and thus impeding their own outgassing rate even more so. Referring back again to Green's solution, to simply continue pouring more pellets in will only exasperate this process.

I actually agree with everything you said here - which is why my estimate is about 30 minutes to 100% deaths in the room and not 5-15 minutes per Green.

I figured much higher temperature and humidity and 8 kg dosage. I'd have to look into it again to refigure a calculation.

On thinking about this again I realize I said some false things upthread (and maybe elsewhere) about 100% outgassing. 100% outgassing would take longer than 1-2 minutes no matter what temperature in this scenario.

But the result will be a nitpick on what Green presents as his broader result. He's off when one nitpicks but not in any way to say that the alleged gassings could not have happened.

[HansHill]

I actually agree with everything you said here - which is why my estimate is about 30 minutes to 100% deaths in the room and not 5-15 minutes per Green.

I figured much higher temperature and humidity. I'd have to look into it again to show my calculations.

On thinking about this again I realize I said some false things upthread (and maybe elsewhere) about 100% outgassing. 100% outgassing would take longer than 1-2 minutes no matter what temperature in this scenario.

Ok great, I'm glad we can hit some level of understanding here, which can be rare in the debating forum! I'm willing to accept the 30 minute timeline as being at least scientifically plausible, so it seems we have common ground here to discuss the entire operation assuming a 30 minute execution time, and what this means for Orthodoxy. Some of the points I'd be most interested in asking you is:

1) How do you account for the question of oxygen depletion doing most (if not all) of the killing under this set of circumstances?

2) Related to 1 above, given HcN is no longer doing much (if any) of the killing, how do you account for the SS to have even found a need for Zyklon at all, which was expensive, limited in supply, and vitally necessary for themselves as lifesaving PPE?

3) I acknowledge you are willing to break from Orthodoxy and the eyewitnesses on at least this point, but what other points are you willing to break from - for example the absence of Prussian Blue, the post-war appearance of the introduction holes (and departing from Auschwitz entirely) the viability of diesel exhaust in the Reinhardt camps?

Thanks for your response and I look forward to debating the above (and more!) with you.

[Nessie]

... I'm willing to accept the 30 minute timeline as being at least scientifically plausible, so it seems we have common ground here to discuss the entire operation assuming a 30 minute execution time, and what this means for Orthodoxy...

You think you have a victory pending, because 30 minutes is longer than witnesses suggest. There are two issues you need to consider.

1 - you cannot cherry-pick the shortest time a witness claimed a gassing took and declare victory, that means every single witness lied, there were no gassings. You should go through what every single witness said about how long gassings took. I can give you a heads start, Tauber, Kula did not say how long they took.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=82890
https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/pub ... DM2NzszNWk

Mueller said;

https://archive.org/details/three-years ... ?q=minutes

"Barely ten minutes had passed since the introduction of the gas crystals when there was quiet in the gas chamber"
"After a while he ordered the Kommandofiihrer to switch on the fans which were to disperse the gas. When they had run for a few minutes the door to the gas chamber which was secured with a few horizontal bolts was opened."

Gabbai said;

https://www.normandy1944.info/holocaust/dario-gabbai

"The people were packed like sardines. Even before the Zyklon-B gas, many of them were scratching the walls. After 20-30 minutes, the doors to the chamber would be opened and Sonderkommando had to untangle the sorry human web."

So, two give no times, one underestimates and one gives a range, which includes the time you accept is plausible. Given that it is proven we are poor at estimating how long something takes, you cannot even rule out Mueller and claim he is a liar, with his underestimation. You have certainly not damaged "orthodoxy".

[HansHill]

You think you have a victory pending

The only "victory" here is that a person who I assume to be an exterminationist, has agreed that Green's premises are faulty, and I thanked him for his honesty. My entire post is about building on that, and exploring what that means for the Orthodox story. Only a fool (or an ideologue) would read poor intentions from my post.

[Nessie]

You think you have a victory pending

The only "victory" here is that a person who I assume to be an exterminationist, has agreed that Green's premises are faulty, and I thanked him for his honesty. My entire post is about building on that, and exploring what that means for the Orthodox story. Only a fool (or an ideologue) would read poor intentions from my post.

If witnesses do not say how long a gassing took, or they include 30 minutes in their estimation, or they clearly under, or overestimate, then any time Green states, in his estimation, is not an issue.

[HansHill]

If witnesses do not say how long a gassing took, or they include 30 minutes in their estimation, or they clearly under, or overestimate, then any time Green states, in his estimation, is not an issue.

Holding Green, and by extension Orthodoxy, to account, is always a necessary endeavor.

[Nessie]

If witnesses do not say how long a gassing took, or they include 30 minutes in their estimation, or they clearly under, or overestimate, then any time Green states, in his estimation, is not an issue.

Holding Green, and by extension Orthodoxy, to account, is always a necessary endeavor.

So long as your methodology is sound. Yours is not sound.

[HansHill]

If witnesses do not say how long a gassing took, or they include 30 minutes in their estimation, or they clearly under, or overestimate, then any time Green states, in his estimation, is not an issue.

Holding Green, and by extension Orthodoxy, to account, is always a necessary endeavor.

So long as your methodology is sound. Yours is not sound.

You'll be explaining to Blake and I how faster execution times than US prisons are achieved with slower offgassing, then.

Be precise and succinct. And sound.

[Nessie]

Holding Green, and by extension Orthodoxy, to account, is always a necessary endeavor.

So long as your methodology is sound. Yours is not sound.

You'll be explaining to Blake and I how faster execution times than US prisons are achieved with slower offgassing, then.

Be precise and succinct. And sound.

Why should I be able to explain?

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=179

[blake121666]

I actually agree with everything you said here - which is why my estimate is about 30 minutes to 100% deaths in the room and not 5-15 minutes per Green.

I figured much higher temperature and humidity. I'd have to look into it again to show my calculations.

On thinking about this again I realize I said some false things upthread (and maybe elsewhere) about 100% outgassing. 100% outgassing would take longer than 1-2 minutes no matter what temperature in this scenario.

Ok great, I'm glad we can hit some level of understanding here, which can be rare in the debating forum! I'm willing to accept the 30 minute timeline as being at least scientifically plausible, so it seems we have common ground here to discuss the entire operation assuming a 30 minute execution time, and what this means for Orthodoxy. Some of the points I'd be most interested in asking you is:

1) How do you account for the question of oxygen depletion doing most (if not all) of the killing under this set of circumstances?

2) Related to 1 above, given HcN is no longer doing much (if any) of the killing, how do you account for the SS to have even found a need for Zyklon at all, which was expensive, limited in supply, and vitally necessary for themselves as lifesaving PPE?

3) I acknowledge you are willing to break from Orthodoxy and the eyewitnesses on at least this point, but what other points are you willing to break from - for example the absence of Prussian Blue, the post-war appearance of the introduction holes (and departing from Auschwitz entirely) the viability of diesel exhaust in the Reinhardt camps?

Thanks for your response and I look forward to debating the above (and more!) with you.

I didn't break from orthodoxy?

I'm saying that under the circumstances of a large muggy packed room and a sensible dosage of Zyklon, that it would take more than 20 minutes for all to be dead. I don't recall saying anything about "oxygen depletion".

I had reverted to thinking about the outgassing and diffusion as being similar to the Degesch delousing chambers which of course would not be the case. Outgassing there is unusually quick. There we have the case of:

1. Smaller can of Zyklon (it was either 100g or 200g, I forget and will have to relook into it) spread thinly. A smaller amount can be spread more thinly than a larger amount. While the Kula column, if used, would spread it thinly I doubt it'd do better than the delousing chamber case. The vertical alignment would muck up the higher placed granules from the lower evaporation. The air in the room would be quite humid too. Outgassing would be significantly slower - even with the Kula column spreading the Zyklon somewhat thin.

2. Hot and dry room. The delousing chamber had a heater to keep the temperature at 35C in the room. And the room would definitely be drier.

3. Fan of warm air blowing across the Zyklon tray. Diffusion is helped by the fan.

4. Directed forced air concentrates and circulates the gas better

In this particular circumstance, full outgassing occurs quite quickly - like 1 or 2 minutes actually.

The homicidal gas chamber case would have a significantly slower outgassing and the humidity would significantly slow the diffusion. Persons in such chamber relatively far away from the Zyklon source could avoid inhaling a lethal dose for a good number of minutes. I estimate it most likely to be about 30 minutes but with a maximum of like 45 minutes.

But as Green says in his paper, if the process was going slowly, one might choose to add more Zyklon.

I couldn't care less about "oxygen depletion". Quite small amounts of HCN inhaled in a short time will quickly kill and is by far the bigger factor here.

[blake121666]

Regarding Nessie's posts, one must keep in mind that the K4/K5 case would be somewhat different than the K2/K3 case.

K2/K3 would be a large muggy basement.

K4/K5 would be a smaller ground level room with much more thinly spread Zyklon.

Green, and I, have been referencing the K2/K3 situation.