Discussion of Nazi Documents Regarding Emigration

[TurboLaser]

I came across a thread on the Skeptics Society Forum that lists emigration attempts of Jews and the reactions by the Nazis—supposedly, these reactions prove genocidal intent. There are plenty of documents in the thread, but I wanted to focus on the two mentioned in the newest post (https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic. ... 06#p973406), mainly the one from May 14, 1943. The first document (https://holocausthistory.site/1944-05-0 ... pied-east/) dated May 5, 1944, doesn't really reveal much, at least to me. Perhaps "dissolved" is being interpreted as a code word for extermination or genocide:

Group Inland II
Inl. II A

Record

On May 2, 1944, Envoy Feldscher once again raised the issue of the emigration of 5,000 Jewish children with the head of the Legal Department. On this occasion, he expressed a new clarification of the British position, stating that the British government was willing to accept these Jewish children “within the British Empire, excluding Palestine and the Near East.” The question for the German government now was whether it would be prepared to hand over the children on this basis without any compensation.

On the German side, the request had been made that they be taken to England itself, as this could lead to a positive resolution of the matter by fostering growing anti-Semitism in England through the influx of Jews.

It was confidentially communicated by the Reich Security Main Office that the 5,000 Jewish children eligible for emigration are now only available in the ghetto of Litzmannstadt. However, this ghetto would soon be dissolved by order of the Reichsführer-SS.

Herewith submitted through the State Secretary to the RAM Office, with the request to inform Inland II in due course of the decision by Mr. RAM regarding the submission made by the State Secretary in the Feldscher matter.

Berlin, May 5, 1944.

[Initials v. Thadden]

The second one (https://archive.is/mv6Q4/a70d82efc8d74c ... dfd11.webp) however, seems to a be a lot clearer, since it states that emigration of children must be rejected. Translation from the post:

[...]
SS-Obersturmbannführer Eichmann - Office IV of the Reich Security Main Office - informs us that his leadership has made the following statement regarding the Allied wish to remove Jewish children from Romania and the occupied eastern territories:
1) The emigration of Jewish children must be rejected in principle.
2) The emigration of 5,000 Jewish children from the occupied eastern territories would be approved if this meant that Germans interned abroad on an exchange basis at a ratio of 4:1, a total of 20,000, were authorised to return to the Reich. However, it was important to ensure that these were not 20,000 old Germans, but Germans under the age of 40 who were capable of reproducing. Otherwise, however, the negotiations would have to be conducted quickly, as the time was approaching when, due to the implementation of our Jewish measures, the departure of 5,000 Jewish children from the eastern territories would no longer be technically feasible. [...]

Not sure if a revisionist has responded to these documents already, but thoughts?

EDIT: Fixed formatting.

[fireofice]

It seems the emigration of a particular group of children was proposed and then rejected. I don't see what this proves.

[TurboLaser]

It seems the emigration of a particular group of children was proposed and then rejected. I don't see what this proves.

The key text in the second document is the first point. It implies a general policy stance, not just toward a particular group of children.

[fireofice]

It seems the emigration of a particular group of children was proposed and then rejected. I don't see what this proves.

The key text in the second document is the first point. It implies a general policy stance, not just toward a particular group of children.

No it doesn't. Referring to "X" doesn't mean "all X over the entire earth". Also even if it was general, it doesn't prove children were killed or that prohibition of children emigrating is permanent and set in stone. You're going to have to do a lot better than vague stuff like this that perhaps maybe lines up with your interpretation to prove the "holocaust".

Also I'm pretty sure there was an order prohibiting Jewish emigration at some point. Emigration and evacuation/resettlement/deportation are not interchangeable.

[TurboLaser]

Also I'm pretty sure there was an order prohibiting Jewish emigration at some point. Emigration and evacuation/resettlement/deportation are not interchangable.

Do you happen to have this order? What do you think the Office meant by "due to the implementation of our Jewish measures"? You mention that some of these words are not interchangeable, but "emigration" and "departure" are used interchangeably in the document.

[fireofice]

Also I'm pretty sure there was an order prohibiting Jewish emigration at some point. Emigration and evacuation/resettlement/deportation are not interchangable.

Do you happen to have this order? What do you think the Office meant by "due to the implementation of our Jewish measures"? You mention that some of these words are not interchangeable, but "emigration" and "departure" are used interchangeably in the document.

Here you go:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/or ... -the-reich

[TurboLaser]

Also I'm pretty sure there was an order prohibiting Jewish emigration at some point. Emigration and evacuation/resettlement/deportation are not interchangable.

Do you happen to have this order? What do you think the Office meant by "due to the implementation of our Jewish measures"? You mention that some of these words are not interchangeable, but "emigration" and "departure" are used interchangeably in the document.

Here you go:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/or ... -the-reich

Thanks. Any idea on what is meant by "Jewish measures" as I mentioned above?

[curioussoul]

I came across a thread on the Skeptics Society Forum that lists emigration attempts of Jews and the reactions by the Nazis—supposedly, these reactions prove genocidal intent. There are plenty of documents in the thread, but I wanted to focus on the two mentioned in the newest post (https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic. ... 06#p973406), mainly the one from May 14, 1943. The first document (https://holocausthistory.site/1944-05-0 ... pied-east/) dated May 5, 1944, doesn't really reveal much, at least to me. Perhaps "dissolved" is being interpreted as a code word for extermination or genocide:

Group Inland II
Inl. II A

Record

On May 2, 1944, Envoy Feldscher once again raised the issue of the emigration of 5,000 Jewish children with the head of the Legal Department. On this occasion, he expressed a new clarification of the British position, stating that the British government was willing to accept these Jewish children “within the British Empire, excluding Palestine and the Near East.” The question for the German government now was whether it would be prepared to hand over the children on this basis without any compensation.

On the German side, the request had been made that they be taken to England itself, as this could lead to a positive resolution of the matter by fostering growing anti-Semitism in England through the influx of Jews.

It was confidentially communicated by the Reich Security Main Office that the 5,000 Jewish children eligible for emigration are now only available in the ghetto of Litzmannstadt. However, this ghetto would soon be dissolved by order of the Reichsführer-SS.

Herewith submitted through the State Secretary to the RAM Office, with the request to inform Inland II in due course of the decision by Mr. RAM regarding the submission made by the State Secretary in the Feldscher matter.

Berlin, May 5, 1944.

[Initials v. Thadden]

The second one (https://archive.is/mv6Q4/a70d82efc8d74c ... dfd11.webp) however, seems to a be a lot clearer, since it states that emigration of children must be rejected. Translation from the post:

[...]
SS-Obersturmbannführer Eichmann - Office IV of the Reich Security Main Office - informs us that his leadership has made the following statement regarding the Allied wish to remove Jewish children from Romania and the occupied eastern territories:
1) The emigration of Jewish children must be rejected in principle.
2) The emigration of 5,000 Jewish children from the occupied eastern territories would be approved if this meant that Germans interned abroad on an exchange basis at a ratio of 4:1, a total of 20,000, were authorised to return to the Reich. However, it was important to ensure that these were not 20,000 old Germans, but Germans under the age of 40 who were capable of reproducing. Otherwise, however, the negotiations would have to be conducted quickly, as the time was approaching when, due to the implementation of our Jewish measures, the departure of 5,000 Jewish children from the eastern territories would no longer be technically feasible. [...]

Not sure if a revisionist has responded to these documents already, but thoughts?

EDIT: Fixed formatting.

After the invasion of the Soviet Union in the summer of 1941, Reinhard Heydrich, Goering, and the RSHA halted emigration efforts for Jews in the Reich, in favor of resettling them in the newly occupied Eastern Territories. There are innumerable documents attesting to this change in policy around August, September and October of 1941. I'll dig up a few examples up if you want. The logic, according to extant documentation, was that wartime emigration of Jews was a security concern, but first and foremost, Germany sought to solve the "Jewish question" on a Europe-wide scale and to collect all of European Jewry within the German sphere of influence, including the Nordics, and resettle them in the East. This was primarily an ideological undertaking. In a couple of documents from RSHA chief Heydrich, the goal of halting Jewish emigration was to bring about a "territorial solution to the Jewish question after the war". In other words, the Germans were anticipating a relatively swift defeat of the Soviet Union, after which certain territories in the Urals or the far-east of Europe were to be allotted to European Jewry.

As you've probably noticed, these types of documents allegedly proving genocidal intent never actually live up to expectations. They only fit within the framework of the Holocaust as long as you've already accepted the underlying premise, which itself is unproven.

As for your question relating to the meaning of "Jewish measures" and other similar terms such as "special operations", "Jewish operation", and so on, they mostly referred to the overall Jewish resettlement program, or to a combination of the resettlement effort, the Aktion Reinhard confiscation effort, and the delousing/showering/transit effort involving the RSHA and the SS. There's really not much to it.