How did the sonderkommando deal with the settled and condensed cyanide in the homicidal gas chambers?

[Nessie]

https://www.auschwitz.org/en/museum/new ... u-,81.html

"The Museum's Collections Department has added several valuable historical exhibits over the last few days. They were discovered in the course of preservation work at the ruins of gas chambers and crematoria II and III at the Auschwitz II-Birkenau site.
More than a dozen objects discovered by preservation specialists carrying out work to drain and waterproof the ruins of the gas chambers and crematoria include covers for the inlets of the gas chamber ventilation shafts, a shower head, and the absorption tip of a gas mask."

[blake121666]

That does not mitigate skin exposure through contact in any way.

They'd be dead.

D e a d dead.

If the historical narrative is to be believed, you must take out your brain and set it on the shelf. The description of gassing would have resulted in the deaths of every single sonderkommando in minutes.

Faurisson way overstates those risks. You should be aware of that.

If one bases his opinions of fraudulence on testimonies - such as you keep appearing to do - then you will of course come to a conclusion that there's alot of fraudulence to be found. The question is whether or not people were mass gassed, though, not JUST are we being BSed.

Hoess is a particularly bad case of fraudulence, unfortunately. The things ascribed to him come across to me as being a slightly changing story based on different ways fraudsters think about what must have been the case - or a better way to defraud. Or it could be that Hoess was out of his mind, I guess. His story is quite incorrect when anyone today tries to square it with facts, though.

Even someone such as Tauber needs to be looked at warily. He and others make alot about stuffing muffles with many corpses at a time when that could ONLY help with incineration times in a "diminishing returns" type way. The time to incinerate a corpse is more controlled by the time to evaporate liquids from that corpse - which would be determined by the surface area exposed to heat. More corpses = less exposed surface area. Tauber also NEVER mentions that a corpse violently combusts in the muffle and its parts drop through the grating it sits on and continues incinerating in the ash bin below. And THAT is how a quicker average incineration is achieved - much more so than stuffing a muffle with corpses. As with Hoess, his testimony comes across as a coached and discussed testimony - even if the coaching and discussing might have been done by only he and 1 or 2 others. The way he exaggerates things suggests that he desires to state higher results than one would actually achieve - based on his misunderstandings of the physics of the situation.

Such is the type handwaving Nessie would like "deniers" to do. But the question remains of what DID happen - regardless of all of the fraudulence you can pick out of testimonies.

If one ONLY makes his decision based on testimonies alone, then the Holocaust is, indeed, a hoax.

I appreciate your vigor, shall we carve this turkey and see if we can get to the facts of the matter then?

Do we agree that the volume of the room is 150m^3 or there about?

No. The LKs used as gas chambers for K1 and K2 were 30m x 7m x (about 2.5m) = 525 m3

Do we assume 4 1kg tins?

Not necessarily. It could have been lower. I think some people think it was 4 200g tins. SOME even say 100g tins - but I think they must be wrong.

Do we assume a 20 minute exposure time for the gypsum?

Definitely not. This is where Hoess is quite wrong. If you are referring to Kula column gassings (which looks to me to be where you're going), I figure the Zyklon to have been exposed for about 30 minutes before being pulled out. But it doesn't matter.

If we do these things, we have to look at how much hydrogen cyanide would release in 20 minutes. I assumed 60°f so consulting the chart that was a 22% release in 20 minutes, 2 hours for full release, referred to the label.

You couldn't be more wrong with that 60F assumption. The room was said to have been jam packed with people for most gassings. The room then would approach body temperature = 98F.

And there is nothing like you say on the label; quit being cute.

At 98F, "full release" as you say would be under 2 minutes.

That put me at roughly 420ppm.

Much much higher than that. 5X-10X higher.

This gas would uniformly condense and have strong adhesion to every exposed surface, because every contact surface is below 80°f. (Ok, almost all, maybe not 100%) this is the nature of the product. It transitions from gas to liquid to enter its active working phase, which is between 24 and 48 hours minimum, maybe longer in cold of damp environments. The directions say to test before entry.

Ridiculously wrong figuring on your part. HCN (which is a GAS) would be absorbed and desorbed by water droplets in the room at a rate dependent upon the temperature. The room was HOT. It was a damned hot room. You are so so wrong about this.

Quit BSing about "the directions say". I've looked into these matters more than you and know what I'm talking about. You have misunderstood whatever "directions" you think you know (possibly NI-9912?).

So, you vent the room, this would excite some of the liquid hydrogen cyanide and pull it away. You run the fan for 20 minutes.

We are concerned with cyanide GAS here. That hydrocyanic acid forms does not mean that becomes any permanent condition. Zyklon ITSELF is hydrocyanic acid adsorbed onto the substrate (what you are calling "gypsum" here). HCN GAS evaporates out of the water and is ventilated out of that hot, hot, hot room.

The level of hydrogen cyanide in the room is still absolutely lethal, what's more, you are going to handle the bodies without skin protection.

No, it has now been vented out of the hot room. Of course SOME would still be in there - but not as much as you (and Faurisson) keep exaggerating. And the bodies will NOT have much hydrocyanic acid on them because those bodies are HOT. Corpses do not cool off instantly.

No, you are dead. D e a d dead. Absolutely dead.

Am I wrong? Do I misunderstand the product label? Am I misunderstand the toxicity of hydrogen cyanide? What am I missing here? You are over 400ppm hydrogen cyanide. That's death, in minutes.

YES You ARE quite quite wrong with your exaggerations here. The HCN GAS was vented out of the hot hot hot hot room! You are TOTALLY exaggerating your imaginings of the conditions. The room would cool down during venting but not as quickly as you imagine. Most of the HCN GAS would evaporate out of the muggy room during ventilation. We can probably reasonably assume that SOME could have been trapped. HCN quickly diffuses though - none would stay locally concentrated - and would not be the type of danger you (and Faurisson) IMAGINE.

[Stubble]

We will start with 1) size of the chamber.

I have the dimensions as 20mx5mx1.5m.

'There were two gas chambers, underground, roughly 10 metres long, 5 metres wide and 1 1/2 metres high, each one.'

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/edu ... -birkenau/

I admit however, I didn't measure them and could be wrong. Can I get a source for the size of the chamber? I need to revisit this.

(This guy says ten, I could have sworn I saw somebody say 20m which made sense.)

*I will revisit with the numbers presented by JCP in his book AUSCHWITZ: TECHNIQUE & OPERATION OF THE GAS CHAMBERS
Or, Improvised Gas Chambers & Casual Gassings at Auschwitz & Birkenau, where the pertinent measurements are given as 30mx7mx2.4m*

Using these numbers the concentration is no long lethal, only hazardous at around 45ppm.

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pel88/74-90.html

'The ACGIH (1986/Ex. 1-3) has summarized the extensive body of human evidence on the adverse effects resulting from exposure to hydrogen cyanide. The Documentation notes that exposure to levels of 45 to 54 ppm hydrogen cyanide can be tolerated for one hour with no immediate or delayed effects, but that 18 to 36 ppm produces “slight” symptoms after several hours of exposure. The ACGIH also cites Grabois (1954/ Ex. 1-1150), who reported that workers in apricot kernel processing plants experienced no ill effects when exposed to hydrogen cyanide at a concentration of approximately 10 ppm.'

[blake121666]

We will start with 1) size of the chamber.

I have the dimensions as 20mx5mx1.5m.

'There were two gas chambers, underground, roughly 10 metres long, 5 metres wide and 1 1/2 metres high, each one.'

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/edu ... -birkenau/

I admit however, I didn't measure them and could be wrong. Can I get a source for the size of the chamber? I need to revisit this.

(This guy says ten, I could have sworn I saw somebody say 20m which made sense.)

*I will revisit with the numbers presented by JCP in his book AUSCHWITZ: TECHNIQUE & OPERATION OF THE GAS CHAMBERS
Or, Improvised Gas Chambers & Casual Gassings at Auschwitz & Birkenau, where the pertinent measurements are given as 30mx7mx2.4m*

I hadn't read that one before. He's wrong about the dimensions. I asked chatGPT to verify what I knew from memory to be 7m x 30m x height - which I didn't exactly recall. ChatGPT said the height was between 2.4m and 2.7m. The 30m x 7m is used all the time on Holocaust discussion boards and in Holocaust books. I figure such must be the dimensions since we have the construction drawings to go by as well as the ruins of course.

The Faurisson article in your OP claims 30m x 7m:

The supposed “gas chamber” of Krema II at Birkenau, of which there remains only a ruin, was in fact a morgue, located below ground in order to protect it from heat and measuring 30 meters in length and 7 meters in width (two meters on either side for cadavers and 3 meters down the center to allow for the movement of wagons).

[Stubble]

Just to mention, here is the performance chart for release of zyclon b;



Also, hydrogen cyanide would condense on surfaces below 80°f like dew on a cup, part of the action of the product is for it to uniformly coat every exposed surface and continue acting until it becomes neutral.

The liquid phase of hydrogen cyanide is between 8°f and 80°f roughly;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_cyanide

Melting point−13.29 °C (8.08 °F; 259.86 K)[4]
Boiling point26 °C (79 °F; 299 K)[4]: 4.67 

Also, internal body temp in ~98°f.

The temperature of a semi basement in Poland on a September morning before dawn would be a bit cooler. In 20 minutes, a group of people piling in wouldn't make the room the same as internal body temperature and I thought 60°f was being generous.

For the record, people in a room will never bring that room to internal body temperature, they probably wouldn't ever bring it to skin temperature, which is much lower.

I have edited my reply about the room size after crunching the numbers, the concentration is no longer lethal and would not cause any cumulative effect for 30min to 60min according to osha. It is a hazardous concentration, but not lethal.

[blake121666]

Just to mention, here is the performance chart for release of zyclon b;



Also, hydrogen cyanide would condense on surfaces below 80°f like dew on a cup, part of the action of the product is for it to uniformly coat every exposed surface and continue acting until it becomes neutral.

The liquid phase of hydrogen cyanide is between 8°f and 80°f roughly;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_cyanide

Melting point−13.29 °C (8.08 °F; 259.86 K)[4]
Boiling point26 °C (79 °F; 299 K)[4]: 4.67 

Also, internal body temp in ~98°f.

The temperature of a semi basement in Poland on a September morning before dawn would be a bit cooler. In 20 minutes, a group of people piling in wouldn't make the room the same as internal body temperature and I thought 60°f was being generous.

For the record, people in a room will never bring that room to internal body temperature, they probably wouldn't ever bring it to skin temperature, which is much lower.

I have edited my reply about the room size after crunching the numbers, the concentration is no longer lethal and would not cause any cumulative effect for 30min to 60min according to osha. It is a hazardous concentration, but not lethal.

Such has not been my experience. I have been in enough crowded enclosed spaces in a cold winter and know for a fact that those rooms very much DO heat up to unbearable temperatures - particularly if everyone is active.

In the scenario we are discussing the claim is that the rooms were jam packed.

And why do you keep using "20 minutes" for everything? We can assume it took longer than 20 minutes to undress in the 1st LK and jam-pack fill the other LK.

Somehow or other EVERYTHING is 20 minutes with you. You think filling the room was 20 minutes, time to death was 20 minutes, ventilation was 20 minutes. What gives with your fixation on 20 minutes? I myself had always figured the ventilation to have been much longer, btw. Estimates of such things are all over the place though. Since I find Hoess to be unreliable on such things, I don't use Hoess for such estimates.

And HCN vaporizes within the range you are calling it a liquid. Zyklon works even at below your low 8F there - as seen in the very graph you show here (which I was of course very well aware of). -18C = -0.4F

[Stubble]

I'm going off testimony man. You have testimony that says longer than 20min exposure time and 20min ventilation time? Show me.

Again, the people are in there briefly, they are not going to heat up the massive heatsink of concrete that makes up the floor, the walls or the roof and columns.

They filed in and were loaded in 'a few minutes' then gassing began.

The exposure time I've see referenced is 20min.

Activity in lk2 is not going to heat lk1. What an odd thing to say.

[blake121666]

I edited my post while you were responding.

[blake121666]

I'm going off testimony man. You have testimony that says longer than 20min exposure time and 20min ventilation time? Show me.

Again, the people are in there briefly, they are not going to heat up the massive heatsink of concrete that makes up the floor, the walls or the roof and columns.

They filed in and were loaded in 'a few minutes' then gassing began.

The exposure time I've see referenced is 20min.

Activity in lk2 is not going to heat lk1. What an odd thing to say.

Any activity, period, raises the heat output of a person. When you enter the locker room after your football match, you heat that place up, right?

You think something like 2000 people undressed and entered the room in "a few minutes"? Get real.

[Stubble]

Check the liquid phase of hydrogen cyanide, it's 8°f to 80°f.

Zyclon has to be using an activator or the hydrogen cyanide wouldn't gas off until 80°f. You can't boil water at 100°f, it boils at 212°f.

You can't boil hydrogen cyanide at 60°f, it boils at 80°f.

Check the provided link or feel free to search for yourself and check the liquid phase of hydrogen cyanide.

[Stubble]

I'm going off testimony man. You have testimony that says longer than 20min exposure time and 20min ventilation time? Show me.

Again, the people are in there briefly, they are not going to heat up the massive heatsink of concrete that makes up the floor, the walls or the roof and columns.

They filed in and were loaded in 'a few minutes' then gassing began.

The exposure time I've see referenced is 20min.

Activity in lk2 is not going to heat lk1. What an odd thing to say.

Any activity, period, raises the heat output of a person. When you enter the locker room after your football match, you heat that place up, right?

You think something like 2000 people undressed and entered the room in "a few minutes"? Get real.

They undressed in lk2, they got gassed in lk1. That's the orthodox narrative. They didn't undress in the gas chamber.

[blake121666]

Check the liquid phase of hydrogen cyanide, it's 8°f to 80°f.

Zyclon has to be using an activator or the hydrogen cyanide wouldn't gas off until 80°f. You can't boil water at 100°f, it boils at 212°f.

You can't boil hydrogen cyanide at 60°f, it boils at 80°f.

Check the provided link or feel free to search for yourself and check the liquid phase of hydrogen cyanide.

No "activator" at all. It is simply hydrocyanic acid itself - and some other things like something to make it smell but no "activator".

Has something to do with "vapor pressure" or something or other. I'm not a chemist. Check Germar Rudolf's book on it.

[Stubble]

The room would have to be at .17atm roughly to gas off hydrogen cyanide with no activator unless I've missed something. I'll buy a copy of the chemistry of Auschwitz. I need to throw some coin down on this side of the fence anyway.

Fact remains, hydrogen cyanide is in the liquid phase at between 8°f and 80°f roughly (I'm rounding, because it is easy to remember this way, and I'm damn close).

[blake121666]

The room would have to be at .17atm roughly to gas off hydrogen cyanide with no activator unless I've missed something. I'll buy a copy of the chemistry of Auschwitz. I need to throw some coin down on this side of the fence anyway.

Fact remains, hydrogen cyanide is in the liquid phase at between 8°f and 80°f roughly (I'm rounding, because it is easy to remember this way, and I'm damn close).

Now that you say it like that, I might have always had a goofball conception about it. I'll have to relook into it myself. I might have been misunderstanding that part all along. You know that hydrocyanic acid (by itself - not as any Zyklon product) has been used for ratocide? I might have even misunderstood that. Maybe some sort of "activator" was in use there?

It's quite possible that I have my conceptions all wrong.

[Stubble]

I'm looking at it, but I ain't seeing it.

https://webbook.nist.gov/cgi/cbook.cgi?ID=C74908&Mask=4

This is from nist.

What am I missing?