Exterminationist tactics - a brief analysis

[HansHill]

I find it harder to argue that all these millions were killed, without leaving a trace, while a war of epic proportions was at its peak, where all the already scarce resources were directed to such a war, than to argue that they could have been pushed into occupied Soviet territory, where logically a significant portion of them perished, especially the old and sick, and where the most productive remained in the Reich and many also ended up dying of exhaustion and disease, especially at the end of the war. Ignoring the elephant in the room called the USSR, willing to demonize its great ideological enemy by hiding Jews or ignoring their presence for political purposes is no more absurd than the alternative.

Its also far easier to map surviving Jews under German stewardship than Soviet stewardship, post-war! See my post immediately above yours!

[Nessie]

Numar, I have been in this debate for years and seen all the tactics used by revisionists. In this instance, Jews who were in or got to Soviet territory, or who successfully avoided arrest by the Nazis, are being counted as survivors of the Nazi occupation, as if they are the same as Jews who were arrested. Discussion about half a million Jews in the SU, is to distract from the rapidly declining Jewish population of Nazi controlled territory.

I have never been able to get a revisionist to discuss the role of the ghettos. Throughout European history, Jews have been ghettoised. There have been both voluntary and involuntary Jewish ghettos in every European country. The Nazis initially ghettoised each Jewish population, often just commandeering some local buildings. The smaller ghettos were often very temporary, as more and more the people were grouped in major cities, such as Warsaw, Bialystock and Minsk. In the west, camps doubled as ghettos, such as Westerbork and Drancy.

If Jews were not being murdered, then as the war progressed, ghetto populations would have risen, to peak in 1944 and liberation in 1945. If millions of Jews had been liberated in 1945, then any claims about mass gassings would be written off as unevidenced atrocity stories.

Instead, the opposite happened. The number of and ghetto populations did initially rise, but in 1942, many started to close down. By the autumn of 1944, the last major ghetto at Lodz closed. Instead of millions in ghettos, there were none. All of that happened in Nazi controlled territory, but it is evidence that revisionists do not want to consider, so they talk about the Jews who managed to avoid being arrested, who hide outside the ghettos, or managed to evade transportation when the ghetto was closed, or who fled to Soviet occupied territory.

I find it harder to argue that all these millions were killed, without leaving a trace...

The opposite argument is being made, that millions were killed, leaving a lot of traces. Revisionists make the without a trace argument, when they claim millions were resettled in the east.

.... while a war of epic proportions was at its peak, where all the already scarce resources were directed to such a war...

Using Jews as forced labourers and killing those who could not work, would use far fewer resources than resettling and accommodating them in the east.

than to argue that they could have been pushed into occupied Soviet territory, where logically a significant portion of them perished, especially the old and sick, and where the most productive remained in the Reich and many also ended up dying of exhaustion and disease, especially at the end of the war. Ignoring the elephant in the room called the USSR, willing to demonize its great ideological enemy by hiding Jews or ignoring their presence for political purposes is no more absurd than the alternative.

Pushing Jews onto the Soviet side, would be to hand them millions more people to fight with and work for them.

The Soviets had even fewer resources than the Nazis, to accommodate millions of Jews in secret.

[Nessie]

...
Its also far easier to map surviving Jews under German stewardship than Soviet stewardship, post-war! See my post immediately above yours!

You can map millions of Jews in Nazi camps in 1944-5? Let me see that, please.

[TlsMS93]

I can see the traces, yes.

Only the unproductive would be sent east, including children, women and the elderly, so this concern with supplying the Soviets with labor does not hold water.

Critically, Sanning shows that many of these Jewish losses were caused not by any German genocidal program, but by Soviet neglect. Sanning claims that hundreds of thousands of Jews lost their lives in Soviet deportations to the east or in labor and concentration camps in Siberia. Sanning concludes that the food, shelter and clothing supplies provided to Jewish prisoners in Soviet camps were woefully inadequate and that medical care was almost completely lacking. Sanning’s conclusion is supported by Jewish historian Gerald Reitlinger, who said: “In southern Siberia the mortality rate was very high for Jews….”

Sending them east and leaving them to fend for themselves was more economical than spending timber resources on mass cremations where Germany was relying on Finland for such. No accounting for timber, no Holocaust.

It even seems that the occupied Soviet population was better off under German occupation than under Soviet administration to claim that they would not have the resources to accommodate a few more millions, since the Soviets were invading countries before Barbarossa, without caring whether they had the resources to accommodate them.

[Nessie]

I can see the traces, yes.

Only the unproductive would be sent east, including children, women and the elderly, so this concern with supplying the Soviets with labor does not hold water.

There is no evidence of the Nazis handing over, or forcing Jewish children, women and the elderly, many of whom could work, to the Soviets.

Critically, Sanning shows that many of these Jewish losses were caused not by any German genocidal program, but by Soviet neglect. Sanning claims that hundreds of thousands of Jews lost their lives in Soviet deportations to the east or in labor and concentration camps in Siberia. Sanning concludes that the food, shelter and clothing supplies provided to Jewish prisoners in Soviet camps were woefully inadequate and that medical care was almost completely lacking. Sanning’s conclusion is supported by Jewish historian Gerald Reitlinger, who said: “In southern Siberia the mortality rate was very high for Jews….”

Jews dying under the Soviets, is not evidence they were not dying under the Nazis. It is just a distraction tactic, by revisionists, to deflect from the huge population drops that the Nazis and every occupied country recorded for their Jewish population during WWII.

Sending them east and leaving them to fend for themselves was more economical than spending timber resources on mass cremations where Germany was relying on Finland for such.

Would millions of Jews not need timber to build barracks and for fires to keep them warm and to cook, in 1944?

No accounting for timber, no Holocaust.

An SS officer at an AR camp, spoke about getting supplies of timber delivered from a Polish wood yard, for construction. In stands to reason, they also get deliveries for pyres.

It even seems that the occupied Soviet population was better off under German occupation than under Soviet administration to claim that they would not have the resources to accommodate a few more millions, since the Soviets were invading countries before Barbarossa, without caring whether they had the resources to accommodate them.

Where were millions of Jews supposedly still alive in 1944 living? Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belorussia, Ukraine, Poland? Where did the nearly half a million Jews taken from Hungary to A-B in 1944 end up living?

[TlsMS93]

No revisionist denies that Jews died, much less that there were few. A large majority suggest that up to 1.5 million Jews perished during the war, not due to an extermination program, just as the brutal treatment given to German prisoners does not constitute one, and the internment of Jews in camps was justified by their organizations in close collaboration with the Allies. The fact that the Germans adopted sanitary measures of disposing of bodies in ovens or cremating them on pyres to preserve the water table in 1942 in AB proves absolutely nothing about how they died.

Luther's 1942 memorandum proves that this was the goal of German policy regarding the Jewish question, to send them to occupied Soviet territory, but you will use the conspiracy of euphemism to distort what the document does not say.

There were 1.5 million Jews living in Europe in the post-war period, not counting the USSR. Under the Wannsee Protocol the Nazis left over 1.5 million Jews in Western and Southern Europe untouched, what kind of extermination program is this? Why wasn't Eichmann fired in 1943 for such sabotage?

[HansHill]

You can map millions of Jews in Nazi camps in 1944-5? Let me see that, please.

We can see massive movements of Jews after you baselessly claim they were gassed, yes.

1945: Per WJC - 475,000 - 525,000 alive and present Polish Jews, incl 80,000 currenlty in Poland
1945: Per WJC - 1,250,000 - 1,500,000 alive and present outside of Poland and on the European continent (we can assume non-Soviet, central Europe)
1946: Per AJY - 140,000 returning from behind the Iron Curtain into Poland
1946: Per NYT - 3,000,000 Jews in Germany



1948 - 52: Per JVL - Migrating from former Soviet states to Israel = 307,000 Jews
1948 - 52: Per JVL - Migrating from central Europe to Israel 30,000


How do you account for the presence and movements of these people if they were gassed? (note none of these Jews are Soviet Jews, for reasons I've explained earlier in this thread, and so are all Jews under former German control, so don't even try)

[Nessie]

No revisionist denies that Jews died, much less that there were few. A large majority suggest that up to 1.5 million Jews perished during the war, not due to an extermination program, just as the brutal treatment given to German prisoners does not constitute one, and the internment of Jews in camps was justified by their organizations in close collaboration with the Allies. The fact that the Germans adopted sanitary measures of disposing of bodies in ovens or cremating them on pyres to preserve the water table in 1942 in AB proves absolutely nothing about how they died.

It is circumstantial evidence as to the sheer numbers who died. Your argument that cremation was to preserve the water table, backfires as it is an admission as to the numbers who died.

Luther's 1942 memorandum proves that this was the goal of German policy regarding the Jewish question, to send them to occupied Soviet territory, but you will use the conspiracy of euphemism to distort what the document does not say.

Can you quote the part in the memo where Luther states Jews should be evacuated to territory occupied by the Soviets and placed under their control?

Can you evidence what Luther was suggesting in 1942, had happened by 1944?

There were 1.5 million Jews living in Europe in the post-war period, not counting the USSR.

There should have been a lot more than that, if the Nazis were resettling them.

Under the Wannsee Protocol the Nazis left over 1.5 million Jews in Western and Southern Europe untouched, what kind of extermination program is this? Why wasn't Eichmann fired in 1943 for such sabotage?

Different occupied, or aligned countries, cooperated differently. Wannsee was a meeting about the progress of the Final Solution in 1942. Eichmann ended up in Hungary in 1944, to ensure as many Hungarian Jews were deported to A-B as possible, countering the previously uncooperative Hungarian authorities.

[Nessie]

You can map millions of Jews in Nazi camps in 1944-5? Let me see that, please.

We can see massive movements of Jews after you baselessly claim they were gassed, yes.

1945: Per WJC - 475,000 - 525,000 alive and present Polish Jews, incl 80,000 currenlty in Poland

The Polish Jewish population was 3.3 million in 1939. Admitting that had dropped to around half a million by 1945, does not help your cause!

1945: Per WJC - 1,250,000 - 1,500,000 alive and present outside of Poland and on the European continent (we can assume non-Soviet, central Europe)

There were 9.5 million Jews in Europe in 1939. Admitting that had dropped to c1.4 million, plus the c500,000 in Poland, so c1.9 million, by 1945, does not help your cause!

1946: Per AJY - 140,000 returning from behind the Iron Curtain into Poland

That puts the total to just under 2 million, which is still a lot less than the 1939, 9.5 million!

1946: Per NYT - 3,000,000 Jews in Germany

The internet tells me there were c37,000 Jews living in post war Germnay.

That is contradicted by;

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... ed-persons

"From 1945 to 1952, more than 250,000 Jewish displaced persons (DPs) lived in camps and urban centers in Germany, Austria, and Italy."

1948 - 52: Per JVL - Migrating from former Soviet states to Israel = 307,000 Jews
1948 - 52: Per JVL - Migrating from central Europe to Israel 30,000

A mere drop in the ocean.

How do you account for the presence and movements of these people if they were gassed? (note none of these Jews are Soviet Jews, for reasons I've explained earlier in this thread, and so are all Jews under former German control, so don't even try)

Many Jews were hidden, or hid, or were successfully protected by their national governments during the war, or were able to flee and then return home after 1945. Countries such as France and Denmark had high survival rates, the Netherlands and Latvia had low;

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... by-country

There was a lot of resistance to the Final Solution.

[TlsMS93]

It is circumstantial evidence as to the sheer numbers who died. Your argument that cremation was to preserve the water table, backfires as it is an admission as to the numbers who died.

No, the 1.5 million Jewish deaths that many revisionists assume as plausible is not admitting that in AB that total died, on the contrary, less than 200 thousand ended their days there and that for physical and chemical reasons.

Can you quote the part in the memo where Luther states Jews should be evacuated to territory occupied by the Soviets and placed under their control?

“Deportation to the General Government is a provisional measure. The Jews will be transferred further away, to the occupied eastern territories, as soon as the technical conditions for this are given”.

Can you evidence what Luther was suggesting in 1942, had happened by 1944?

A great question to ask the Soviet authorities and this giving the benefit of the fact that they were honest people.

There should have been a lot more than that, if the Nazis were resettling them.

The answer below to this question already answered that, which clashes with a policy of extermination given the time and control they exercised; the planners at Wannsee did not foresee difficulties in these deportations.

In short, it is not we who support something, but you, accustomed to inventing mystical and epic stories. To this day the world awaits archaeological proof of the Exodus, capable of having the audacity to say that the Amalekites, ancestors of the Germans, carried out the first Aktion 1005 of the evidence.

[HansHill]

The Polish Jewish population was 3.3 million in 1939. Admitting that had dropped to around half a million by 1945, does not help your cause!


There were 9.5 million Jews in Europe in 1939. Admitting that had dropped to c1.4 million, plus the c500,000 in Poland, so c1.9 million, by 1945, does not help your cause!


That puts the total to just under 2 million, which is still a lot less than the 1939, 9.5 million!



The internet tells me there were c37,000 Jews living in post war Germnay.



That is contradicted by;

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... ed-persons

"From 1945 to 1952, more than 250,000 Jewish displaced persons (DPs) lived in camps and urban centers in Germany, Austria, and Italy."


A mere drop in the ocean.


Many Jews were hidden, or hid, or were successfully protected by their national governments during the war, or were able to flee and then return home after 1945. Countries such as France and Denmark had high survival rates, the Netherlands and Latvia had low;

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... by-country

There was a lot of resistance to the Final Solution.

Your fake Genocide requires these people to be dead. Not:

- Unaccounted for
- Missing
- In hiding
- Double counted
- Overlapping

Dead.

The fact we can see them all sauntering all over central Europe, former Soviet states and Israel, amongst others, in the post war years like Where's Waldostein is absolutely hilarious and disastrous for your fake genocide

[Hektor]

....

There was a lot of resistance to the Final Solution.

Your fake Genocide requires these people to be dead. Not:

- Unaccounted for
- Missing
- In hiding
- Double counted
- Overlapping

Dead.

The fact we can see them all sauntering all over central Europe, former Soviet states and Israel, amongst others, in the post war years like Where's Waldostein is absolutely hilarious and disastrous for your fake genocide

It requires intent, planning to destroy the group... And not recognizing it as well as enhancing internal development.. like of social and cultural structures. Deporting and removing from society is something else than genocide, which can either be done by physical destruction or by absorption or by decreasing birth rates inside the group.....

[Numar Patru]

Of J0, a minority accept Soviet citizenship, perhaps for ideological reasons, ie they were pro-Bolshevik.

Ok, I don’t see any proof in what you’ve posted so far that this assertion is true. In fact, it seems to me unlikely that a majority would have refused Soviet citizenship given the possible alternatives. As noted, some Jews tried to re-enter the General Gouvernement. But a majority? That hasn’t been shown.

Let’s call this minority J1, who were subsequently sent directly to the Russian interior, and by all accounts, never seen again. This is also one of the numbers I challenged you to find, as I will refer to again later as i flesh out my point, so please keep this challenge in mind. Its difficult, right? I posited that these were Gulaged, and lived out the remainder of their days under great misery, but that's just my opinion.

Here, it might be helpful to go back to what Mattogno wrote.

Towards the end of June 1940 the Soviet government ordered them to be deported into the inner regions of the Soviet Union, where the conditions are reported to have been extremely harsh.

Your claim is that “them” refers to the group that accepted Soviet citizenship. But I think he’s referring to the group that refused citizenship. I believe this for a few reasons:
1) The previous sentence in the Mattogno quote refers to those who refused citizenship: “ According to the Yearbook "many" of the refugees opted for the latter alternative, but Germany refused categorically to let these Jews return.”
2) It makes much more sense for the Soviets to deport disloyal people than loyal ones. Indeed, loyalty vs disloyalty was the overall logic driving Soviet deportations before and during the war.
3) Nowhere else in the Mattogno passage does he number the deported group at 500,000.
4) The number deported — 64,000 per Hryciuk and confirmed by Pohl — would refer to a disloyal minority.

The remainder of your argument rests on the number remaining in the Kresy upon the German invasion, but I think we need to iron out what comes before that.

I am genuinely trying here and would appreciate your indulgence.

[HansHill]

Your claim is that “them” refers to the group that accepted Soviet citizenship. But I think he’s referring to the group that refused citizenship. I believe this for a few reasons:

I am genuinely trying here and would appreciate your indulgence.

The end point of this line of reasoning is that we see them re-emerge post-war, which we do. Had it been the other way around as you assert, and the "majority" defected to become Soviet citizens, your job becomes even more difficult as these would be legal Soviet citizens with far more strict post-war limitations on their movement. You would have to account for why we see them again, a challenge which is admittedly difficult for the German cohort, but nigh impossible for the Soviet cohort.

Do we at least agree that J0 (J1 + J2) were routed either to the Reinhardt Network or Gulag Network?

[Numar Patru]

Since I don’t think Jews who accepted Soviet citizenship were deported to the Soviet interior, it doesn’t really pose a problem. My position is that these Jews remained in the Kresy and were therefore still there when the German invasion happened.

This is why I said at the beginning of this argument that there was virtually no overlap between Jews in the Kresy in June 1941 and Jews deported to the Soviet interior a year earlier.

I’ve done extensive research on this topic, by the way. For instance, even among Jews deported a year earlier to the Soviet interior, many were released with the German invasion to join the Red Army or fight with Polish army units. One famous case is Menachem Begin, deported in 1940 to northern Siberia, he was released in June 1941 and joined the Anders Army and fought in the Middle East, subsequently deserting and going underground in Palestine.

My point is that Jews fall into several groups at different point in time. There’s no reason to assume that Jews appearing in DP camps in Poland after the war come from a particular area from before or during the war.