The Significance of the Morgue Documents

[Nessie]

Why destroy two buildings that can double as air raid shelters, but leave the purpose built air raid shelters around the A-B camps, intact?

There could be any number of reasons why, for example Krema I was not dynamited. Here is a snippet from the official Auschwitz website

"The Germans therefore initiated a series of evacuation-liquidation steps lasting through the middle of January 1945, but they refrained from doing anything that would make it impossible for the camp to continue functioning." Emphasis mine.

Now, this makes perfectly reasonable sense in an evacuation scenario. Look at where it is situated, and imagine this being cratered, and attempting to maintain the functioning of this location, which includes in its immediate vicinity, administration buildings and a hospital.

Krema I was not dynamited, because it was now an air raid shelter, hiding its past use as a gas chamber. You claimed Kremas II and III were destroyed because they could have been used as air raid shelters by the Soviets, which makes no sense, when they left all the actual air raid shelters intact. The actual reason Kremas II and III were demolished, was the same as for Kremas IV and V and the two bunkers, they had been used for gassings.

[HansHill]

You understand you're doing it again, don't you?

Krema I = Morgue, converted to an air raid shelter, and extant, for credible reasons I've given above.
Krema II /III = Morgues, doubling as air raid shelters, and not-extant for credible reasons I've given above.

This is absolutely consistent with everything we know about the evacuation of the camps, the blueprints, and physical condition of these buildings and I cannot make it any simpler than that.

[TlsMS93]

The Eiffel Tower was also a gas chamber since Hitler asked if Paris was burning.

[Stubble]

The Eiffel Tower was also a gas chamber since Hitler asked if Paris was burning.

The paris gas chambers were real, I've seen the hand prints in the concrete walls and the gas ducts.

[Nessie]

You understand you're doing it again, don't you?

Krema I = Morgue, converted to an air raid shelter, and extant, for credible reasons I've given above.
Krema II /III = Morgues, doubling as air raid shelters, and not-extant for credible reasons I've given above.

This is absolutely consistent with everything we know about the evacuation of the camps, the blueprints, and physical condition of these buildings and I cannot make it any simpler than that.

You are trying to justify your claim;

"The kremas you are asking about were subterranean meaning they were intended to double as air-raid shelters. It's good military practice to not allow critical wartime infrastructure (such as air raid shelters) fall into enemy hands."

You are arguing that it was good practice to destroy the Kremas as they could double as air raid shelters. But that makes no sense in the context of A-B, because none of the actual air raid shelters were destroyed, to prevent them from falling into enemy hands. That means the Kremas were not destroyed because they could double as air raid shelters.

What is consistent with the evidence, is that the only buildings in Birkenau that were destroyed, were the four Kremas and two converted farmhouses, that were used as gas chambers.

Auschwitz main camp is different. Krema I was converted for use as an air raid shelter, so it was left to fall into enemy hands, as it past use as a gas chambers had been covered up. If it was so critical as you allege, to destroy air raid shelters and prevent them from falling into enemy hands, then why leave Krema I and the other air raid shelters dotted about the camps, untouched?

You do not have credible reasons, let alone any evidence, as to why six buildings in Birkenau were destroyed, whilst others were left untouched, to fall into enemy hands.

[Stubble]

Can you speak to the condition of the crematoria in question in light of the fact that allied forces had bombed and straffed concentration camp facilities? For roughly a year? Presumably mostly Soviet.

I can't.

I'm going to make a guess that they were structurally compromised.

[Nessie]

Can you speak to the condition of the crematoria in question in light of the fact that allied forces had bombed and straffed concentration camp facilities? For roughly a year? Presumably mostly Soviet.

I can't.

I'm going to make a guess that they were structurally compromised.

I am going to evidence that the Americans were responsible for air raids in the area around Auschwitz and they targetted industrial facilities, and never bombed Auschwitz main camp, or Birkenau.

https://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micr ... 205786.pdf

"The United States Air Force could even have carried out the operation
in conjunction with other war operations.
The Auschwitz complex, which included a major industrial zone
and armaments factories, was itself a military target. A specific military goal
was to destroy the synthetic oil refinery in Auschwitz. The Germans had seven
other such plants in the area, all within 45 miles of Auschwitz. From July–
November 1944, more than 2,800 American planes bombed the oil factories—
on their way, flying right over or along the railways leading up to Auschwitz.
On August 20 and September 13, American bombers hit the industrial zone at
Auschwitz itself, just five miles from the camp's four gas chambers."

[HansHill]

....then why leave Krema I and the other air raid shelters dotted about the camps, untouched?....

I've given you one interpretation already, by citing the official Auschwitz website, which is consistent with the arguement. Scroll back up.

[Stubble]

The picture I posted, also from Yad Vashim oddly, was from the American bombing of Auschwitz on September the 13th 1944.

Now, I can't find concise information about Soviet air raids, but, they were striking the buna plant, watch towers at the camps and apparently viewed the camps as targets of opportunity, although I'm sure they were trying to minimize casualties of the detainee population.

I can find reports from various air raids yielding 50 dead here or 100 dead there. I'm having trouble sorting out which report ties to which camp. I'm also having trouble compiling a coherent list and chronology of the air raids.


[/quote]

[Nessie]

....then why leave Krema I and the other air raid shelters dotted about the camps, untouched?....

I've given you one interpretation already, by citing the official Auschwitz website, which is consistent with the arguement. Scroll back up.

Yes, this;

"The Germans therefore initiated a series of evacuation-liquidation steps lasting through the middle of January 1945, but they refrained from doing anything that would make it impossible for the camp to continue functioning."

That contradicts your claim;

"The kremas you are asking about were subterranean meaning they were intended to double as air-raid shelters. It's good military practice to not allow critical wartime infrastructure (such as air raid shelters) fall into enemy hands."

The official website says there was no policy to destroy buildings, prior to evacuation. The only buildings destroyed, were the ones used for gassings, that had not subsequently been modified for other uses. Cover-up.

[Stubble]

I feel it fair to mention, the sewage treatment plant, likely krema II (answers are unspecific, just say other infrastructure) and the mens sick barracks/quarantine were hit by a payload from a USAAC B-17 Friday the 13th September 1944.

Given where that part of the payload visible on the left of the photograph hit, I think the 3 bombs on the right may have hit krema III, although again, the search results are not specific and say 'other infrastructure'.

I say this because if they hadn't, they would have hit the women's barracks, and the casualties I can find do not list women.

This is from 1 payload of 1 unintentional run. You've got 2 on the sewage plant, 2 in the mens medical and quarantine, likely 2 on krema II and likely 3 on krema III. Recorded in pictures.

The allies apparently said that an SS barracks was hit. They are clear on the other side of the camp, and literally couldn't be further away.

Then you have Soviet strafing runs and 'deliveries'.

They were in air raid shelters from time to time for a reason. Because they were being buzzed, and occasionally, bombed.

Also, looking at a later series, it looks like cremains from krema III were buried in that square pit behind krema III just to the right of that bomb cluster.

It looks like cremains from krema II were buried in those 2 smaller pits behind krema II.

[TlsMS93]

Was the “Dachau gas chamber” also a bomb shelter to keep them intact? Or how difficult was it to destroy? Or did they not have time? The fact that it is a gross propaganda falsification already indicates a ruse going on with the Soviets in the East.

[Nessie]

I feel it fair to mention, the sewage treatment plant, likely krema II (answers are unspecific, just say other infrastructure) and the mens sick barracks/quarantine were hit by a payload from a USAAC B-17 Friday the 13th September 1944.

Given where that part of the payload visible on the left of the photograph hit, I think the 3 bombs on the right may have hit krema III, although again, the search results are not specific and say 'other infrastructure'.

I say this because if they hadn't, they would have hit the women's barracks, and the casualties I can find do not list women.

This is from 1 payload of 1 unintentional run. You've got 2 on the sewage plant, 2 in the mens medical and quarantine, likely 2 on krema II and likely 3 on krema III. Recorded in pictures.

...

What is your source for that? Please link to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_bombing_debate

"...it is impossible to claim that Auschwitz-Birkenau could not have been bombed. In fact, the Fifteenth Air Force did drop bombs on it by accident on 13 September 1944, when SS barracks were hit by bombs falling short of their intended industrial targets."

https://www.yadvashem.org/from-our-coll ... hotos.html

"The second bombing mission was carried out on 13 September, and the photographs taken during the bombing by B-24 bombers of the 464th Bombardment Group include a photograph showing bombs being dropped over Birkenau."

Bombs intended for Monowitz, would start to be dropped as the planes were flying over Birkenau. Where are you getting bombs landing on the Kremas?

[Stubble]

I feel it fair to mention, the sewage treatment plant, likely krema II (answers are unspecific, just say other infrastructure) and the mens sick barracks/quarantine were hit by a payload from a USAAC B-17 Friday the 13th September 1944.

Given where that part of the payload visible on the left of the photograph hit, I think the 3 bombs on the right may have hit krema III, although again, the search results are not specific and say 'other infrastructure'.

I say this because if they hadn't, they would have hit the women's barracks, and the casualties I can find do not list women.

This is from 1 payload of 1 unintentional run. You've got 2 on the sewage plant, 2 in the mens medical and quarantine, likely 2 on krema II and likely 3 on krema III. Recorded in pictures.

...

What is your source for that? Please link to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_bombing_debate

"...it is impossible to claim that Auschwitz-Birkenau could not have been bombed. In fact, the Fifteenth Air Force did drop bombs on it by accident on 13 September 1944, when SS barracks were hit by bombs falling short of their intended industrial targets."

https://www.yadvashem.org/from-our-coll ... hotos.html

"The second bombing mission was carried out on 13 September, and the photographs taken during the bombing by B-24 bombers of the 464th Bombardment Group include a photograph showing bombs being dropped over Birkenau."

Bombs intended for Monowitz, would start to be dropped as the planes were flying over Birkenau. Where are you getting bombs landing on the Kremas?

Well, walk with me and I'll tell ya.

First, we were talking about why the krema were dismantled, specifically 2 and 3. I ventured a guess that they were somehow structurally comprised. This guess was because the best reason I could think of to tear down a building was it being structurally unsound.

It being a war, I wondered if any bombs had hit the camp, and if so, if any had landed near the crematoria. I figured I'd ask the internet. It came back null for any bombing of Auschwitz Birkenau and instead had a bunch of links for why we didn't bomb Auschwitz Birkenau.

This led me to look at aerial reconnaissance photographs to see if I could see any bomb craters or anything.

Instead, I got this;



Yad Vasham called out the aircraft as a flying fortress. If it was a boxcar, I apologize. I don't have background on the sortie, so, I don't know personally. I wasn't there.

Well, after seeing this photo and reading that an SS barracks was destroyed, I asked the internet if anything else was destroyed at Auschwitz Birkenau on September 13th. It said that the sewage treatment plant was damaged along with 'other infrastructure' in a few links on the first page (which it no longer does, which is a pity because I didn't archive anything, because I figured 10 plus year old links on the first page of a search result don't vanish, so I'll be able to find one later from one of your preferred sources, I was wrong. I won't).

Knowing this, I looked for a later picture to play where's Waldo with for the sewage treatment plant and the missing barracks. I found this one to look at;



Now, there is a structure called out as a destroyed barracks in the mens portion of the camp. It isn't an SS barracks, and there are no other corresponding buildings damaged commiserate with the corresponding bomb load. There also isn't a sewage treatment plant.

If you look below the krema though, at the long buildings, one is missing. There is a sewage treatment plant there. It's also directly under the payload when you look at the picture of the delivery.

Looking at the payload, and looking at the location of the delivery, I posited that it looked 'likely' that 2 bombs hit krema II and that 3 bombs hit krema III.

I stand by that.

I can't tell you what destroyed the barracks in the middle of the camp all by its lonesome, and I can't tell you why the allies claimed they destroyed an SS barracks. I can tell you that after looking at a map, that long building was called out as a sick/quarantine barracks, and so I said as such. I now see conflicting maps saying other things. It may have been something else. Again, I wasn't there.

Now, could I be wrong, absolutely. Can I find the sources that led me to this conclusion now? Well, no. I'm not going to invest the time to find the sources that don't come up first page in the search anymore. Can I tell you what happened to the single destroyed barracks? No. Can I tell you that bombs 'definitely' hit the krema? No.

I can look at reconnaissance photographs and venture a guess though.

[Nessie]

.....
Well, walk with me and I'll tell ya.

First, we were talking about why the krema were dismantled, specifically 2 and 3. I ventured a guess that they were somehow structurally comprised. This guess was because the best reason I could think of to tear down a building was it being structurally unsound.

It being a war, I wondered if any bombs had hit the camp, and if so, if any had landed near the crematoria. I figured I'd ask the internet.

The way you approach your investigation rings alarm bells, because you have a preferred conclusion already and now you want to fit evidence to confirm that conclusion. You want the Kremas to have been bombed, so you can then dismiss that the Nazis destroyed them, as part of a cover-up to hide evidence of gassings.

It came back null for any bombing of Auschwitz Birkenau and instead had a bunch of links for why we didn't bomb Auschwitz Birkenau.

Because you have skewed your search towards getting results you want, you managed to miss histories of what did happen to the Kremas, and the Bunkers.

https://www.auschwitz.org/en/history/au ... -chambers/
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/cr ... z-birkenau

They had all been demolished or blown up prior to the camp being abandoned. There is no evidence they were hit by bombs.

This led me to look at aerial reconnaissance photographs to see if I could see any bomb craters or anything.

Instead, I got this;



Yad Vasham called out the aircraft as a flying fortress. If it was a boxcar, I apologize. I don't have background on the sortie, so, I don't know personally. I wasn't there.

Well, after seeing this photo and reading that an SS barracks was destroyed, I asked the internet if anything else was destroyed at Auschwitz Birkenau on September 13th. It said that the sewage treatment plant was damaged along with 'other infrastructure' in a few links on the first page (which it no longer does, which is a pity because I didn't archive anything, because I figured 10 plus year old links on the first page of a search result don't vanish, so I'll be able to find one later from one of your preferred sources, I was wrong. I won't).

Knowing this, I looked for a later picture to play where's Waldo with for the sewage treatment plant and the missing barracks. I found this one to look at;



Now, there is a structure called out as a destroyed barracks in the mens portion of the camp. It isn't an SS barracks, and there are no other corresponding buildings damaged commiserate with the corresponding bomb load. There also isn't a sewage treatment plant.

If you look below the krema though, at the long buildings, one is missing. There is a sewage treatment plant there. It's also directly under the payload when you look at the picture of the delivery.

Looking at the payload, and looking at the location of the delivery, I posited that it looked 'likely' that 2 bombs hit krema II and that 3 bombs hit krema III.

I stand by that.

I can't tell you what destroyed the barracks in the middle of the camp all by its lonesome, and I can't tell you why the allies claimed they destroyed an SS barracks. I can tell you that after looking at a map, that long building was called out as a sick/quarantine barracks, and so I said as such. I now see conflicting maps saying other things. It may have been something else. Again, I wasn't there.

Now, could I be wrong, absolutely. Can I find the sources that led me to this conclusion now? Well, no. I'm not going to invest the time to find the sources that don't come up first page in the search anymore. Can I tell you what happened to the single destroyed barracks? No. Can I tell you that bombs 'definitely' hit the krema? No.

I can look at reconnaissance photographs and venture a guess though.

I am not convinced the aerial photo captions are accurate, they do not tally with the history. The photo caption states IV and V were destroyed in December 1944, but the histories say that Krema IV was destroyed by fire in October 1944, during a mutiny and then demolished, but Krema V was not blown up until Jan 1945, the day before the Soviets arrived. It is also not clear how the aerial photo shows that Kremas II and III are partially dismantled, especially since there has been snow. As to the barracks in the middle of the camp, marked as destroyed, that again could have been by prisoners. There is also the issue of the two Bunker gas chambers.

You admit you are not prepared to put much effort into your research, but it must be clear already that there is no evidence any Krema or Bunker, and there were 6 of them, was hit by a bomb. So the Nazis destroying them as part of the cover-up, is the only evidenced history.