The Significance of the Morgue Documents

[curioussoul]

This is largely a re-post from the RODOH forum, where we had an interesting discussion going.

One of the main features of the orthodox gassing story for Auschwitz is that the Birkenau morgues (Leichenkeller I) of Crematoria II and III were secretely converted into gas chambers around the end of 1942 and early 1943, shortly before Crematorium II was inaugurated in March of that year. Because of this, some scholars such as Robert van Pelt have pointed out that Birkenau had "no permanently dedicated morgue capacity".

Nevertheless, a series of documents from Birkenau prove that these morgues were indeed actively used as morgues all throughout 1943 and 1944. Carlo Mattogno published an article in 2004 entiteld "The Morgues of the Crematoria at Birkenau in the Light of Documents" (found here). In it, he quoted some pretty extraordinary documents, a few of which I'll quote below. In 1943, camp doctor Eduard Wirths made requests for the camp administration to expand the morgue capacity of the camp, but was shot down by Hoess, Mrugowski and Bischoff on the basis that the morgues in the crematoria were enough. On August 4, 1943, Bischoff (head of the Central Construction Office), replied with the following letter to Wirths:

SS Standartenführer Mrugowski has decreed during the discussion that the corpses are to be removed twice daily, in the morning and in the evening, into the morgues of the crematoria; in this way, the separate construction of morgues in the individual subsections can be avoided.

This is probably the single most damning document because it outright mentions the morgues of the crematoria, which - followin the official story - would have been unavailable as morgues due to them being supposedly converted into homicidal gas chambers for Jewish deportees. But the letter also mentions a decree whereby corpses are to be removed "twice daily", in the morning and in the evening, to the morgues, showing that the morgues were expected to be available around the clock for corpse storage.

When confronted with this particular document on the RODOH forum, Nessie appeared somewhat taken aback, denying that such a document could exist. After being convinced the document was indeed real, he pivoted to claiming it had to be a one-off exception. Traces of this corpse removal decree can be found in other documents relating to the morgues. As late as May 1944, the new ZBL head Werner Jothann responded once more to Wirths regarding the expansion of the morgues:

SS Obersturmbannführer Höß points out that in accordance with a presently valid order, the daily load of c.[orpses] is to be removed daily in the morning by means of a dedicated truck; if this order is carried out, an accumulation of c. cannot arise and therefore the construction of the above-mentioned halls is not imperative. SS Ostubaf. Höß therefore demands not to undertake the construction of the halls under discussion.

In other words, the order to remove corpses to the morgues twice daily was still in effect in May 1944. Wirths himself confirmed the order was still being followed in May 1944 in a different letter:

In the sick-bays of the camps at cc Auschwitz II a certain number of corpses accumulate daily on a regular basis. While their transportation to the crematoria has been organized and takes place twice a day, in the morning and in the evening, it does happen that on account of the scarcity of vehicles and/or fuel the corpses are not taken care of for 24 hours.

Anti-revisionist debaters at the RODOH forum attempted a number of arguments to explain these documents. One explanation was that the reference to merely "the crematoria" meant the corpses were immediataly taken to the ovens and burned, but this argument hardly holds up considering the most significant of these letter, the one by Bischoff, expressly mentions "the morgues of the crematoria". The phrasing "the crematoria" generally included facilities other than the ovens, such as the undressing room and the morgue itself. Another attempted explanation was that the morgue could have theoretically been used both as a morgue and a gas chamber, but there is no witness testimony from any of the Sonderkommando witnesses about the gas chamber ever being filled with regular non-gassed corpses. That would mean that the gas chamber would have to be regularly cleared of real corpses before every gassing, a major aspect of the duties of the Sonderkommando. A third explanation was that the SS didn't need morgues at all because corpses could just be burned instantly in the crematoria, which supposedly ran daily 24/7 at fantastical rates. But this doesn't really explain the fact that Wirths was asking for more morgues and the fact that autopsies were regularly carried out at the camp, which would have required morgues.

Given the significance of these documents for the gassing story, I think they deserve their own thread.

[Stubble]

Wait, so, the morgue was, a morgue? That's like saying the dressing area at majdanek was the dressing area at majdanek.

[TlsMS93]

People who died of various causes in the camp would have to be stored somewhere, not in the open air, in cold semi-underground cellars was the ideal place awaiting cremation.

It is hard to swallow that 2000 people are gassed for 15 muffles per hour, which would require a week of working 24/7, in other words, successive gassings do not exist or only exist in fertile imaginations, there would be one gassing per week at most through the neck of the muffles.

There is no fuel problem, they will say, they need to explain why Germany did not win the war without oil, after all, it is not important.

[Archie]

The article has been reposted to CODOH here.
https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... au-in-the/

Let's put in simple terms. If the "morgue" was really a gas chamber, where was the actual morgue for all the people dying of typhus, etc?

Auschwitz was the largest concentration camp and accounted roughly half of the deaths in the KLs. The registered deaths were around 135,000. That's quite substantial. This only seems trivial compared to the wildly inflated "Holocaust" numbers that get thrown around. What were they doing with these 100+ bodies that were accumulating per day? They were taking them to the morgues. We are to believe that the camp that had the greatest need for morgues was the one without dedicated morgue space. Meanwhile camps like Buchenwald and Dachau that had more like 10 deaths per day did have dedicated morgues.

Would it be conceivable to keep track of which crematoria had gassings scheduled, to make sure that the bodies were cleared, and that "regular" deaths were taken to a crematorium that had no gassing scheduled? Perhaps. But that sounds like a big hassle and where is there any indication that anything like this was done?

As a side note, one thing that struck me about this correspondence is that Dr. Wirths sounds like a pretty good doctor. Very conscientious for a guy working in a murder camp.

[Nessie]

This is largely a re-post from the RODOH forum, where we had an interesting discussion going.

One of the main features of the orthodox gassing story for Auschwitz is that the Birkenau morgues (Leichenkeller I) of Crematoria II and III were secretely converted into gas chambers around the end of 1942 and early 1943, shortly before Crematorium II was inaugurated in March of that year. Because of this, some scholars such as Robert van Pelt have pointed out that Birkenau had "no permanently dedicated morgue capacity".

Nevertheless, a series of documents from Birkenau prove that these morgues were indeed actively used as morgues all throughout 1943 and 1944. Carlo Mattogno published an article in 2004 entiteld "The Morgues of the Crematoria at Birkenau in the Light of Documents" (found here). In it, he quoted some pretty extraordinary documents, a few of which I'll quote below. In 1943, camp doctor Eduard Wirths made requests for the camp administration to expand the morgue capacity of the camp, but was shot down by Hoess, Mrugowski and Bischoff on the basis that the morgues in the crematoria were enough. On August 4, 1943, Bischoff (head of the Central Construction Office), replied with the following letter to Wirths:

SS Standartenführer Mrugowski has decreed during the discussion that the corpses are to be removed twice daily, in the morning and in the evening, into the morgues of the crematoria; in this way, the separate construction of morgues in the individual subsections can be avoided.

This is probably the single most damning document because it outright mentions the morgues of the crematoria, which - followin the official story - would have been unavailable as morgues due to them being supposedly converted into homicidal gas chambers for Jewish deportees. But the letter also mentions a decree whereby corpses are to be removed "twice daily", in the morning and in the evening, to the morgues, showing that the morgues were expected to be available around the clock for corpse storage.

When confronted with this particular document on the RODOH forum, Nessie appeared somewhat taken aback, denying that such a document could exist. After being convinced the document was indeed real, he pivoted to claiming it had to be a one-off exception...

I would like you to link to and quote me denying that such a document could exist. My recollection is that all I wanted you to do, was to link to and quote the document, which for reasons known only to you, you found annoying.

I have been to plenty of mortuaries (morgues), during my time as a police officer. They are used to store corpses, that are awaiting postmortems (autopsies) or collection for cremation or burial. If you remove those purposes, you do not need a mortuary. The dead at A-B were not sent for postmortems and the cremation capacity at the camp was so high, that corpses did not need to be stored to await disposal. That means the Leichenkeller is now freed for use as a gas chamber. Moving corpses twice a day, prevents corpses piling up, when there is nowhere to store them and spreads the demand for the Kremas.

That the term morgue remained in use, is explained by the policy of keeping the usage of the Kremas as obscured and secret as possible, during the period of the "special" treatment and action in 1943-4.

[TlsMS93]

The article has been reposted to CODOH here.
https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... au-in-the/

Let's put in simple terms. If the "morgue" was really a gas chamber, where was the actual morgue for all the people dying of typhus, etc?

Auschwitz was the largest concentration camp and accounted roughly half of the deaths in the KLs. The registered deaths were around 135,000. That's quite substantial. This only seems trivial compared to the wildly inflated "Holocaust" numbers that get thrown around. What were they doing with these 100+ bodies that were accumulating per day? They were taking them to the morgues. We are to believe that the camp that had the greatest need for morgues was the one without dedicated morgue space. Meanwhile camps like Buchenwald and Dachau that had more like 10 deaths per day did have dedicated morgues.

Would it be conceivable to keep track of which crematoria had gassings scheduled, to make sure that the bodies were cleared, and that "regular" deaths were taken to a crematorium that had no gassing scheduled? Perhaps. But that sounds like a big hassle and where is there any indication that anything like this was done?

As a side note, one thing that struck me about this correspondence is that Dr. Wirths sounds like a pretty good doctor. Very conscientious for a guy working in a murder camp.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the future they make a concession and dismiss Krema III as a gas chamber and say that it was used to store the "natural" deaths of the camp. They will always find a way to accommodate the initial lack of logic in the narrative. Today's Holocaust is not the same as the beginning, the narrative is gaining sophistication.

[Nessie]

....
I wouldn't be surprised if in the future they make a concession and dismiss Krema III as a gas chamber and say that it was used to store the "natural" deaths of the camp.

That will only happen if new evidence comes to light, that it was used as a store.

They will always find a way to accommodate the initial lack of logic in the narrative.

What lack of logic? The initial reports of gassing at A-B, were followed up with searches for evidence to establish if the reports were true or not.

Today's Holocaust is not the same as the beginning, the narrative is gaining sophistication.

It changed, as it gained more evidence.

[Hektor]

The article has been reposted to CODOH here.
https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... au-in-the/

Let's put in simple terms. If the "morgue" was really a gas chamber, where was the actual morgue for all the people dying of typhus, etc?
....

That's indeed the question they needed to answer. The designs and documents in Auschwitz I/II are rather clear that those are the morgues for urban-type of cremation facilities.

Until now I've yet to here a good answer to where the usually death corpses were stored, if those where homicidal gas chambers. Apparently this does however go unnoticed. The problems with the 'testimony' / narrative are virtually always ignored or explained away. The 'witnesses' are believed on face value. That biased behavior of the historiographer should tell you that what they say should be taken with a grain of salt.

[TlsMS93]

“That will only happen if new evidence comes to light, that it was used as a store”.

There is already an existing document presented in the topic.

[Nessie]

“That will only happen if new evidence comes to light, that it was used as a store”.

There is already an existing document presented in the topic.

It is not new evidence. It is not evidence that corpses were stored prior to cremation.

[TlsMS93]

Being selective in the evidence is a criticism that they love to attribute to revisionists but love to adopt.

There are people who, in order to accept reality, the evidence has to be almost rapist. I apologize to the readers for the term, but please be patient in a debate where evidence is confronted. One side suggests a conspiracy to cover up evidence without evidence of the attempted cover-up, and the other suggests that the existing documents demonstrate a reality that is the opposite of the events.

[Nessie]

Being selective in the evidence is a criticism that they love to attribute to revisionists but love to adopt.

There are people who, in order to accept reality, the evidence has to be almost rapist. I apologize to the readers for the term, but please be patient in a debate where evidence is confronted. One side suggests a conspiracy to cover up evidence without evidence of the attempted cover-up, and the other suggests that the existing documents demonstrate a reality that is the opposite of the events.

Demolishing Kremas IV and V, so that there was nothing beyond the foundations left and blowing up Kremas II and III, is evidence of a cover-up, when so many other buildings were left intact. Were the Nazis afraid the Soviets could store corpses in the Kremas?

[TlsMS93]

They left the Majdanek camps intact and that didn't stop the Soviets from claiming the most absurd things ever said in the war, they didn't want to make their propaganda work easier.

I repeat, no one is creating a conspiracy that the Soviets' scorched earth was to cover up anything. I'm surprised they didn't cover up the Katyn massacres and still had the nerve to blame the Germans, but Nessie trusts the reports of the Polish-Soviet commissions of those camps.

[HansHill]

Were the Nazis afraid the Soviets could store corpses in the Kremas?

No. The kremas you are asking about were subterranean meaning they were intended to double as air-raid shelters. It's good military practice to not allow critical wartime infrastructure (such as air raid shelters) fall into enemy hands.

[Nessie]

They left the Majdanek camps intact and that didn't stop the Soviets from claiming the most absurd things ever said in the war, they didn't want to make their propaganda work easier.

I repeat, no one is creating a conspiracy that the Soviets' scorched earth was to cover up anything. I'm surprised they didn't cover up the Katyn massacres and still had the nerve to blame the Germans, but Nessie trusts the reports of the Polish-Soviet commissions of those camps.

Was there a Soviet report on A-B? If so, it is so useless, I have never seen it referred to. The Polish are to a higher standard, but they still made mistakes, such as the reconfiguration of Krema I. However, they have since been corroborated by other evidence from the camp, including all the Germans who worked inside Birkenau, or at Krema I.