Archaeological Evidence of Mass Graves at Treblinka II

[Nessie]

3 maps. 2 from '45, 1 from '46, all collaborative witness maps. Huh, another collaborative map, with 4 pits, indicated in the same spot...

Something to note, the pits have grown a little by '46 and aren't in the precise spot anymore, as you get later the maps get less and less in line with the GPR. This seems to bear out Nessie's observation about witnesses. The more contemporary the map, the closer to reality it is.

All the maps, all the witnesses and the archaeological surveys agree, the main mass graves were in the south eastern part of the camp.

[Stubble]

And all of the maps indicate that the Mediterranean is situated between Europe and Africa. That doesn't mean you get to start grabbing the black sea, the Caspian sea and any lakes in Europe and add them to the Mediterranean Nessie.

[Nessie]

And all of the maps indicate that the Mediterranean is situated between Europe and Africa. That doesn't mean you get to start grabbing the black sea, the Caspian sea and any lakes in Europe and add them to the Mediterranean Nessie.

All of the evidence for mass graves, relates to the south eastern part of the camp, or the Lazarete area. I am not trying to add in evidence from any other location.

[Stubble]

I was surprised to see you confine your asserted grave space to the 'extermination area', and I will give you credit for that Nessie.

Where I'm standing, the alleged pits are g51-g54. Witnesses described 4 pits, gpr returned 4 hits. You think 3 teams of witnesses forgot to mark what you assume are the biggest graves.

I even maximized the grave space by treating the pits as cylinders and packing them absolutely to the brim excluding top layer or any layers at all between bodies. I did that because, we have no data on what is in any of these pits.

I'm waiting for the 2024 study, and I think you may be losing g50, because I think they dug and catalogued it. When they publish, if they ever do, we will know for sure.

The presence of concrete and jagged rocks as memorials to me is a tell that what is alleged in these various mass murder sites is not what is claimed. The only purpose I can see for them is to prevent non invasive testing and to leave the question open.

Ultimately, a lot of jews are missing, you can't point to them in the ground at the camps, and I can't point to them in another place alive. One of us is wrong.

It looks like it might be time to bump the Belzec 'Own Goal' thread (Kola study) and to start a Sobibor thread. I'm going to stick a fork in this one.

[Nessie]

I was surprised to see you confine your asserted grave space to the 'extermination area', and I will give you credit for that Nessie.

Have you ever seen me claim mass graves, in an area, where there is no evidence of mass graves? The answer is no.

Where I'm standing, the alleged pits are g51-g54. Witnesses described 4 pits, gpr returned 4 hits. You think 3 teams of witnesses forgot to mark what you assume are the biggest graves.

Please name and quote the witnesses who said there were 4 mass graves in the main grave area.

Where is your evidence that G50 is a tank trap, which has no corpses or cremated remains buried in it?

I even maximized the grave space by treating the pits as cylinders and packing them absolutely to the brim excluding top layer or any layers at all between bodies. I did that because, we have no data on what is in any of these pits.

I'm waiting for the 2024 study, and I think you may be losing g50, because I think they dug and catalogued it. When they publish, if they ever do, we will know for sure.

The links I can find to the 2024 study, make no mention of such an excavation;

https://muzeumtreblinka.eu/en/2024/07/0 ... tion-camp/
https://eng.pw.edu.pl/News/Scientists-i ... ation-Camp

The presence of concrete and jagged rocks as memorials to me is a tell that what is alleged in these various mass murder sites is not what is claimed. The only purpose I can see for them is to prevent non invasive testing and to leave the question open.

There is a lot of evidence of grave robbing, not just at TII, which has prompted the memorials to prevent such.

Ultimately, a lot of jews are missing, you can't point to them in the ground at the camps, and I can't point to them in another place alive. One of us is wrong.

I can point to them in the ground, you just chose to ignore, or minimise that evidence. You cannot point to them alive in another place.

It looks like it might be time to bump the Belzec 'Own Goal' thread (Kola study) and to start a Sobibor thread. I'm going to stick a fork in this one.

What was that about Jews preventing excavations?

[HansHill]

What was that about Jews preventing excavations?

Nice Try

[HansHill]

Another very important aspect was the observance of aspects of Halakhic law. During the work, we were supported by a representative of the Rabbinical Commission for Jewish Cemeteries. This meant that the research conducted differed from any archaeological research conducted in Poland and abroad.

1 - they were looking for gas chambers
2 - they needed to observe Jewish laws and customs

**edit**

Link

https://eng.pw.edu.pl/News/Scientists-i ... ation-Camp

[Keen]

Ultimately, a lot of jews are missing, you can't point to them in the ground at the camps...

Nessie:

[All the maps, all the witnesses and the archaeological surveys agree, the main mass graves were in the south eastern part of the camp.] I can point to them in the ground...

Here's your chance to shine then Nessie:

* The 15 so-called “scientifically proven” mass graves of Treblinka II are shown and numbered in the maps in this link here:

(#1/86 though #15/100 of the alleged 100)

https://vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p=229 ... count=2843

(#1/86 though #15/100 of the alleged 100)

Since we can't actually see you point, and since we don't have magic glasses like you do, please tell us the numbers of the graves that you are pointing to.

[Keen]

The yellow are the pits GPR located...

Are you talking about the areas labled as "probable pits" Nessie?

https://vnnforum.com/attachment.php?att ... 1524614037

pit
[pit]

noun

a large hole in the ground.

What exactly is a "probable large hole in the ground"?

I mean, there is either a "large hole" or not - right?

Does one need a pair of your magic glasses to see these alleged "large holes in the ground" Nessie?



Just how hard can it be to prove the existence of a "large hole in the ground"?

Or are you alleging that there used to be "large holes in the ground" in those areas, but then someone filled them in?

If that is the case, then where did the soil come from that was used to fill in these alleged "large holes"?

Are you suggesting that the remains of tens of thousands of magically disappearing jews were dug out of "large holes in the ground" and then shoveled back in, without anyone documenting such an event?

Where did the people who excavated these magically disappearing jews get their magic glasses? I mean, one would need a pair of magic glasses to excavate magically disappearing jews, wouldn't one?

That reminds me Nessie:

Is it - True. - or - False. - that; If 7 graves contained the bones and teeth of 925,000 jews - then each grave would contain, on average, the remains of 132,143 jews - ??

IV - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; Covering millions upon millions of pounds of bones and teeth with “a thick layer of sand” makes them magically disappear - ??

5 - In total, how many single, disconnected human teeth have been tangibly discovered within the 15 Treblinka II graves / cremation pits in question: __?__.

10 - List all of the Treblinka II graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove actually exist and currently contain at least an iota of human remains: __?__.

[Nessie]

Stubble, from this thread;

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=12504#p12504

The CSC study, in my opinion, shows much the same of what Krege claimed, insufficient grave space. (ie largely undisturbed ground)

The only pits located in the area proposed are g-50, g51, g52, g53 and g54. For the alleged >850,000 victims, they amount to a thimble, the dead wouldn't fit as a liquid.

Nessie claims more mass graves under the concrete and you claim more in the trees and under rocks, and anywhere else that either hasn't been checked or had a vegetation change. It is worth noting, 3 teams of witnesses made 3 separate maps from '45-'46, all 3 indicated 4 pits in roughly the location of the gpr returns labeled g51, g52, g53 and g54. In my opinion, that would be the extent of the grave space, if it were ever confirmed to actually hold human remains. Basically, if I were looking for mass graves at Treblinka II, I'd start my search where the witnesses indicated and where the GPR had returns.

This is wrong. There were two areas eyewitnesses stated contained mass graves, the south-eastern part, which is where G50-54 are located, along with G36. They surround the main memorial. Pits G4 and G38 are at the south of the camp. Pits G1, G44 and G32 are in the second area identified by eyewitnesses, in the south-western part, the Lazarete. Most of that area is covered by the smaller memorial.

Stubble states it is me claiming there are more mass graves under the memorial. He is dodging that it is the evidence from the eyewitnesses and the photos of the site before it was memorialised, that proves the majority of the graves are under the memorials. That was the whole point of the memorials, to protect the graves from robbers.

However, in 1966, when the memorial was constructed, the Poles did not have GPR, so they missed some grave space. The memorial should have been even larger. Thankfully, the grave robbing has stopped, so those missed graves have been undisturbed.

Stubble is cherry-picking as little of the evidence as possible, to try and minimise the volume of disturbed ground he accepts as grave space. That is a common tactic amongst so-called revisionist, that only they fall for.

(See figure 4.29, on page 208 of the C S-C report, to see the layout of the pits, superimposed on the 1944 aerial photo and since the memorial was built.)

[Stubble]

There are exactly 0 proven mass graves at Treblinka II. If you are going to prove mass graves there, take Greg's challenge.

You assume there are mass graves under the memorial just like you assume there are mass graves everywhere else.

If you could prove it, you'd be 105,000 usd richer.

[bombsaway]

There are exactly 0 proven mass graves at Treblinka II. If you are going to prove mass graves there, take Greg's challenge.

You assume there are mass graves under the memorial just like you assume there are mass graves everywhere else.

If you could prove it, you'd be 105,000 usd richer.

Are there proven mass graves at Belzec or Chelmno?

[Stubble]

There are exactly 0 proven mass graves at Treblinka II. If you are going to prove mass graves there, take Greg's challenge.

You assume there are mass graves under the memorial just like you assume there are mass graves everywhere else.

If you could prove it, you'd be 105,000 usd richer.

Are there proven mass graves at Belzec or Chelmno?

Read;

http://thisisaboutscience.com/

[Nessie]

There are exactly 0 proven mass graves at Treblinka II. If you are going to prove mass graves there, take Greg's challenge.

You assume there are mass graves under the memorial just like you assume there are mass graves everywhere else.

If you could prove it, you'd be 105,000 usd richer.

I have not assumed anything. There is eyewitness, photographic and archaeological evidence of mass graves under the memorial. Just because you and a few others reject that evidence, it does not mean therefore there are no mass graves.

[bombsaway]

There are exactly 0 proven mass graves at Treblinka II. If you are going to prove mass graves there, take Greg's challenge.

You assume there are mass graves under the memorial just like you assume there are mass graves everywhere else.

If you could prove it, you'd be 105,000 usd richer.

Are there proven mass graves at Belzec or Chelmno?

Read;

http://thisisaboutscience.com/

So there's no proven graves even where archeologists have claimed to have found cremains. How am I supposed to prove any of this?