Archaeological Evidence of Mass Graves at Treblinka II

[HansHill]

You have been repeatedly shown.....

750,000 bodies-as-bodies indicated on a map, go!

[Stubble]

....
He is still claiming the tank trap, yea.

You are lying. Where is this "tank trap"? From the geophysical survey;

https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/35 ... s12PhD.pdf

Please indicate what feature inside TII, is the "tank trap".

He seems to concede the broken property disposal areas.

That was never a concession. Smaller pits located outwith the main grave areas, are most likely where property was buried.

I can't readily identify one of the pits he is claiming, it is the one on the other side of the monument from 4 pits I suppose to be mass burial pits, directly across the monument from the tank trap. G36 [#15/100]

G36 is described as "Similarly, to the west of the memorial in this area a further feature was identified
that was also bisected by the concrete (G36). This feature was shown to be
rectilinear in plan within the GPR results and is located in the area believed to have
contained graves and, as noted by many witnesses, the cremation pyres"

It is located in the area identified by witnesses as containing graves, but it is closer to the central area where the gas chambers and pyres were located, so it is uncertain if it is a grave pit.

G50-54, shown here;



"Five pits were located with the GPR (G50-G54) on the eastern side of the Death
Camp (Figures 4.29 and 4.34). Although the GPR survey was unable to achieve a large
enough depth range to determine the full extent of these pits, it is possible to say
that they were all deeper than four metres and that they were all of considerable
size in plan (G50 was visible to an extent of 34m x 12m, G51-19m x 12m, G52 – 22m
x c.15m, G53 – c.18m x 7m and G54 was visible to 20.8m x c. 14m)."

That is a volume of 5,533m3, or over 2 Olympic sized swimming pools. That is the volume of grave space just it that small sliver of land between the main memorial and the trees. If the rest of the area could be surveyed, and it had the same density of pits, that would increase the grave volume by at least 4 times, so there would now be about 9 Olympic sized swimming pools worth of grave space in that area.

Thus, I have proven that large pits were dug at TII and there is space for the mass graves described by the eyewitnesses. You cannot counter me with any evidence, to prove what you highlight, is the limit for mass graves at the camp.

Seems like less than 6 hectares Nessie. Even if you include the tank trap. G50

I'll go get you a source for the tank trap. If I recall correctly, both Hilberg and Arad describe it and cite sources. If I recall correctly, it is described in a different orientation, but, the location is correct.

You asked for an estimate of grave capacity I think is there. Assuming a circle with a diameter of 20m and a depth of 7m, and assuming a density of 5 corpses per cubic meter, roughly 11,000. With 10 bodies per cubic meter, 22,000. I estimate somewhere between these figures, which is a lot of corpses. (This applies to g51, g52, g53 and g54 for a total of 44,000-88,000 ~10% of the claimed death toll) Before anyone mentions 10 bodies per meter is absolutely ridiculous, consider, I'm being as forgiving as possible and I'm using the 'only possible with German methods' calculus. (No one will ever drop a shovel in the dirt there to confirm or refute this, so we will never know. From now on however, I'm going to go with the 0 legally proven mass graves, and it is important for everyone to remember, I am alleging these numbers are possible, I am not asserting they are present. If I were to conduct a study, and were to count bodies, this is where I would drop my shovel in the dirt)

You mention skulls being found with no bullet hole in them. I posit those skulls are from the hospital grave, not from these graves. I further mentioned that if the corpses were 'Aktion 1005'd', as according to legend, and crushed with a ball mill, or mallets and tin, which is used as the reason that no bodies have been found, although, as we have been over, Soviet and Polish reports indicate at least parts of bodies, then there would be no skulls. So, already, we have the story being a lie. Either the aktion 1005 story, or the Polish and Soviet reports.

You ask for proof that these pits are the extent of the alleged mass graves. I point to the maps again and I highlight that the 4 pits correspond both in placement and in size to the alleged pits from 1945. Either that is an incredible coincidence, and you can just insert mass graves in whatever size and quantity you want because, well, they really just meant that there were mass graves in that rough area, or, the mass graves indicated on the map and indicated with GPR returns are in fact in place and of scale indicated because that is indeed what witnesses saw.

You can't just say there is grave space everywhere that hasn't been surveyed because the bodies don't fit in the holes Nessie. You need to evidence more holes. Those 4 holes, are evidenced, even if they have not been proven. Evidence indicates there may be bodies in them. Tens of thousands of them. What remains is to prove them, which will never be done, because then the scale of the shoah at Treblinka II would reflect roughly 10% of the allegation.

(A personal opinion, to cry over these dead terrorists, these partisans, these ghetto fighters, this is something jewish culture should do. They should venerate their 'heros' as what they were however. Insurgents, assassins and terrorists. Personally, I will lose no sleep over how they their end, the acts perpetrated by the people who fill those holes while mostly suppressed by history, are sometimes described, in graphic detail, and celebrated by people who murder babies in their sleep. The long tradition of terrorism is alive and well)

[Nessie]

You have been repeatedly shown.....

750,000 bodies-as-bodies indicated on a map, go!

The main area where the bodies were buried, is the black area II on this 1945 survey map;

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bmap14.jpg

It is the south-eastern part of the camp. That area corresponds to the area to the bottom right of this aerial photo, that has an overlay of the 2011 survey finds;



The aerial photo shows disturbed ground in that south-eastern part of the camp, with its irregular shading. The yellow are the pits GPR located in between the tress and the memorial, which shows how much of the area was dug up to make the pits.

The yellow pits located to the bottom right, or south-western part of the camp, correspond to the Lazarete, which contained mass graves as well as rubbish pits.

The camp was 17 hectares, so the southern part of the camp that contained the mass graves, is in an area of about 8 hectares.

The evidence to prove that the pits contain human remains comes from eyewitnesses, the 1945 survey excavations and photos, and the walk over survey finds of cremated remains in 2011.

[Nessie]

...

Seems like less than 6 hectares Nessie. Even if you include the tank trap. G50

I'll go get you a source for the tank trap. If I recall correctly, both Hilberg and Arad describe it and cite sources. If I recall correctly, it is described in a different orientation, but, the location is correct.

Please do link me to evidence to prove G50 is a tank trap.

You asked for an estimate of grave capacity I think is there. Assuming a circle with a diameter of 20m and a depth of 7m, and assuming a density of 5 corpses per cubic meter, roughly 11,000. With 10 bodies per cubic meter, 22,000. I estimate somewhere between these figures, which is a lot of corpses. (This applies to g51, g52, g53 and g54 for a total of 44,000-88,000 ~10% of the claimed death toll) Before anyone mentions 10 bodies per meter is absolutely ridiculous, consider, I'm being as forgiving as possible and I'm using the 'only possible with German methods' calculus. (No one will ever drop a shovel in the dirt there to confirm or refute this, so we will never know. From now on however, I'm going to go with the 0 legally proven mass graves, and it is important for everyone to remember, I am alleging these numbers are possible, I am not asserting they are present. If I were to conduct a study, and were to count bodies, this is where I would drop my shovel in the dirt)

The Poles did multiple excavations in 1945. They found cremated human remains. Hence, you want to ignore that evidence and claim, dishonestly, that "no one will ever drop a shovel in the dirt".

Why are you assuming a circle of 20m, with a depth of 7m? Why are you not using evidence? G50-54 is 5,533m3 or enough if you assume 10 bodies per m3, 55,330 corpses.

You mention skulls being found with no bullet hole in them. I posit those skulls are from the hospital grave, not from these graves.

"Posit"? Again, why not use evidence? Is it because you have none?

I further mentioned that if the corpses were 'Aktion 1005'd', as according to legend, and crushed with a ball mill, or mallets and tin, which is used as the reason that no bodies have been found, although, as we have been over, Soviet and Polish reports indicate at least parts of bodies, then there would be no skulls. So, already, we have the story being a lie. Either the aktion 1005 story, or the Polish and Soviet reports.

The evidence is that the Nazis did not manage to exhume and cremate all the corpses. You find evidence rather inconvenient, preferring to posit what happened.

You ask for proof that these pits are the extent of the alleged mass graves. I point to the maps again and I highlight that the 4 pits correspond both in placement and in size to the alleged pits from 1945. Either that is an incredible coincidence, and you can just insert mass graves in whatever size and quantity you want because, well, they really just meant that there were mass graves in that rough area, or, the mass graves indicated on the map and indicated with GPR returns are in fact in place and of scale indicated because that is indeed what witnesses saw.

It is you who is asking for proof of mass graves. I have provided it, with multiple eyewitnesses who say there were mass graves and in that area, the 1945 survey found cremated remains and the 2011 survey found pits.

You can't just say there is grave space everywhere that hasn't been surveyed because the bodies don't fit in the holes Nessie. You need to evidence more holes. Those 4 holes, are evidenced, even if they have not been proven. Evidence indicates there may be bodies in them. Tens of thousands of them. What remains is to prove them, which will never be done, because then the scale of the shoah at Treblinka II would reflect roughly 10% of the allegation.

(A personal opinion, to cry over these dead terrorists, these partisans, these ghetto fighters, this is something jewish culture should do. They should venerate their 'heros' as what they were however. Insurgents, assassins and terrorists. Personally, I will lose no sleep over how they their end, the acts perpetrated by the people who fill those holes while mostly suppressed by history, are sometimes described, in graphic detail, and celebrated by people who murder babies in their sleep. The long tradition of terrorism is alive and well)

That the memorial was built over the area surveyed by the Poles in 1945, and when the memorial was built in 1966, more cremated remains were found, is evidence to corroborate the eyewitnesses who describe mass graves larger than the ones found in the 2011 survey.

Your personal opinion is not important. Sorry, you need evidence and you have nothing. Instead, you posit, which is only convincing to you. Is there anything else you believe, which is not only not evidenced, but there is evidence to counter it?

[Stubble]

Posit, because there has been no dig there to confirm contents.

These graves are alleged, not proven. They are evidenced by the 1945 maps. 2 of 'em.

No dishonesty on my part, just supposition.

Honesty would be to say absolutely 0 mass graves are proven at Treblinka II.

55,330 seems to be between 44,000 and 88,000 to me.

/shrug

[Nessie]

Posit, because there has been no dig there to confirm contents.

These graves are alleged, not proven. They are evidenced by the 1945 maps. 2 of 'em.

No dishonesty on my part, just supposition.

Honesty would be to say absolutely 0 mass graves are proven at Treblinka II.

Your idea of proven is to dismiss evidence that clearly proves mass graves at the camp, such as the 100% of the eyewitnesses who worked there and the 1954 Polish survey that identified a large area of disturbed ground and cremated remains, and then announce the 1945 plans are evidence, but it is not enough to prove mass graves.

You are guilty of cherry-picking and it is not surprising, since your agenda is to disbelieve, that only cherry-pick minimal evidence.

55,330 seems to be between 44,000 and 88,000 to me.

/shrug

It is. Your posit is that they were all partisans, ghetto fighters, who deserved to die, but of course, you have zero evidence to prove that!

[Stubble]

Nessie, on what planet is grave space for tens of thousands of people not a mass grave?

You are guilty of building a foundation of evidence where there isn't actually evidence to support your preconceived claim of >850,000 people buried there.

You call my evidence, of collaborative, contemporary, eyewitness maps and GPR returns cherry picking because you can't fit the bodies in there as a liquid, so you use allegations from 40 years after the fact to say the witnesses forgot to mark 6 hectares of grave space. That's dishonest as fuck.

[Nessie]

Nessie, on what planet is grave space for tens of thousands of people not a mass grave?

You are guilty of building a foundation of evidence where there isn't actually evidence to support your preconceived claim of >850,000 people buried there.

You say that there is evidence for 44-88,000 buried at TII. I say there is evidence for c850,000.

You call my evidence, of collaborative, contemporary, eyewitness maps and GPR returns cherry picking because you can't fit the bodies in there as a liquid, so you use allegations from 40 years after the fact to say the witnesses forgot to mark 6 hectares of grave space. That's dishonest as fuck.

To support your claim of 44-88,000, you cherry-pick only two of the maps and part of the GPR finds. The witnesses did not forget to mark the grave space, it is in their descriptions and shown on the various maps they drew. That evidences a far larger area of mass graves, than what you will accept, because you cherry-pick only a small part of the evidence.

Your blatant cherry-picking is very dishonest and it is yet another example of your reliance on logical fallacies.

[Stubble]

For the rest of the class, cherry picking = selecting the maps that match the GPR and the GPR returns that match the map.

Literally evidencing.

Nessie here assumes that 2 separate teams of witnesses correlated each other and the GPR data taken from 2011, but, somehow forgot to mark the other 6 hectares of grave space.

[Nessie]

For the rest of the class, cherry picking = selecting the maps that match the GPR and the GPR returns that match the map.

Literally evidencing.

You cherry-pick the maps that most closely resemble the GPR and have to accept grave space for 44-88,000 people. You claim one of the GPR pits is in fact a tank trap, with no evidence for that. You are cherry-picking, to minimise the evidence you consider, to minimise the volume of mass graves and number of people buried there.

Nessie here assumes that 2 separate teams of witnesses correlated each other and the GPR data taken from 2011, but, somehow forgot to mark the other 6 hectares of grave space.

I don't assume anything, every thing I have said is evidenced. All the witnesses, their plans and the 1945 survey, show the main mass grave area to be the south-east area of the camp, which is where GPR, heavily restricted by trees and the memorial, has found grave space for 44-88,000 people. The evidence is that if that entire area could be GPR surveyed, it would find many more pits.

The 6 hectares is the area of the south-east with the main mass graves, and the south-west with the Lazarete, with its mass graves.

[Stubble]

3 maps. 2 from '45, 1 from '46, all collaborative witness maps. Huh, another collaborative map, with 4 pits, indicated in the same spot...

Something to note, the pits have grown a little by '46 and aren't in the precise spot anymore, as you get later the maps get less and less in line with the GPR. This seems to bear out Nessie's observation about witnesses. The more contemporary the map, the closer to reality it is.