No, I am counting what has been identified as most likely a grave, based on size and location, so G50-54 and G36.
No, I am counting what has been identified as most likely a grave, based on size and location, so G50-54 and G36.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
They didn't. On the Kudlik, Wiernik and Trautsolt map they indicate 4 mass graves and on the Kudlik, Laks and Platkiewicz map they also indicate 4.
The maps are indicative of where things were in the camp. They are not to scale, or to be regarded as definitive.If you can't, I ask you, did they, forget the 2 largest mass graves on their map Nessie? Is that what you are going with?
So you have decided, without even knowing exactly how much grave space there was and what happens when naked corpses are thrown into graves, over a period of months.The grave space is wildly insufficient.
If an eyewitness draws a plan indicating mass graves were in a certain part of a camp and a GPR survey finds pits where the witnesses say the mass graves were, that is strong corroborating evidence for mass graves. That witnesses draw 4 pits on a plan, but GPR finds 5 in that location, is not an issue, as the plans are not to be taken as definitive and witnesses forget.When you compare the almost contemporary maps, that were collaborative efforts, with the study, you find the 4 pits indicated by witnesses, that doesn't mean you get to start saying any return in that area was grave space, the evidence doesn't support that.
I can't believe I have to explain evidencing to you Nessie, yet, here we are.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
The different witnesses, in their statements, said different numbers of graves. They also drew different numbers of graves on any map or plan they had a hand in. That is because not everyone remembers the same details, especially when asked to recall events after many months, if not years later.Stubble wrote: ↑Wed Jul 09, 2025 5:50 pm Nessie, when the only two maps congruent with the survey are two of the oldest, made by collaboration of witnesses and reflect exactly 4 pits, then that's what is evidenced. You are making assumptions here.
The witnesses dropped their pits where they happen to be, and even the scale is congruent as is their placement. You ignore that and you just start inserting more grave space you can not evidence. You say it's ok to do that because they drew 4 pits, so, obviously any disturbance there is a mass grave now.
You are in a hole, and you should stop digging.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
Maps of the camp here;
I am showing you that the witnesses locate the main mass graves in the same area that GPR found a series of pits, G50-54 and that it also located pits in the Lazarette.You are inserting doubt, making gaps and exploiting that to extrapolate grave space that isn't there.
That is why the report states, probable graves, because the GPR survey did not dig into them. The 1945 Polish survey did excavate that part of the camp and they found cremated remains.I am certain that if, for example, the tank trap were examined, it would be found to be a tank trap and not a mass grave. In the broken property disposal pits, things like broken combs and toothbrushes are found.
The only teeth you are going to find in the other grave spaces that you allege are going to be sharks teeth.
How many of these gpr returns are from digging preformed by the commissions Nessie? You don't know, you can not say.
No, G36 and G50-54 are in the extermination area and there are pits in the Lazarette.How many are evidenced by the witnesses and borne out by the study? 5. 4 in the 'extermination area' and 1 next to the camp hospital.
If the entire area was excavated and cremains separated from the earth and ashes, I say, based on what has been found, that there would be enough to prove c850,000 had been buried there.Those are your evidenced mass graves. You go dig in those, and you are going to find disarticulated bodies with soft tissue and ligaments attached, you are going to find hair, and you are going to find jaws, skulls, longbones and teeth, mixed with sand.
You are going to find thousands of bodies in those pits, and that is horrifying enough. You aren't going to find anywhere near >850,000 of them though, so, I fully expect, if that ever does happen, for you to revert to the exterminationist dismissal card of 'they aktion 1005'd the bodies'.
Your position is not evidenced. You have no eyewitnesses, documents, archaeology, forensics or circumstantial evidence, to prove that the ground at TII is largely undisturbed, and there are no mass graves.I don't think we are going to progress the thread any further and I don't think there is much value in continuing to say the same things over and over. I understand your position, and I disagree. You seem to understand my position and you disagree. I'm not going to change your mind, and you aren't going to change mine.
Personally, I feel my position is far more tenable because it is borne out by the evidence. You, somehow think that blindly inserting grave space is fine because (insert some reason, then another, then another). Personally I think that's dishonest and I feel you are trying to manipulate the historical record and the studies to suit your preconceptions.
Nessie said-Those are your evidenced mass graves. You go dig in those, and you are going to find disarticulated bodies with soft tissue and ligaments attached, you are going to find hair, and you are going to find jaws, skulls, longbones and teeth, mixed with sand.
Notice, the strawmanYour position is not evidenced. You have no eyewitnesses, documents, archaeology, forensics or circumstantial evidence, to prove that the ground at TII is largely undisturbed, and there are no mass graves.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
You want this to end with your claim about being supported by evidence, but I will challenge that, again. With regards to TII;
In 1945, the Poles conducted extensive excavations at the site and found cremated human remains. You provide zero evidence to prove that the ground was, in fact, never dug into, let alone corpses cremated and buried there.For posterity, I do want to highlight something;
I said-Nessie said-Those are your evidenced mass graves. You go dig in those, and you are going to find disarticulated bodies with soft tissue and ligaments attached, you are going to find hair, and you are going to find jaws, skulls, longbones and teeth, mixed with sand.Notice, the strawmanYour position is not evidenced. You have no eyewitnesses, documents, archaeology, forensics or circumstantial evidence, to prove that the ground at TII is largely undisturbed, and there are no mass graves.
Marian Olszuk
Fplo show that they never arrived but got off prior to the end point.Documents. Me - multiple documents recording mass arrivals at the camp.
You - zero documents recording mass departures from the camp.
Evidence of dead arriving on trains. Aerial bombing range.Archaeology. Me - site surveys proving large areas of disturbed ground, pits and cremated human remains
You - no evidence to prove undisturbed ground and so no mass graves
JudenlagerCircumstances. Me - the evidence of AR, the clearing of ghettos and theft of personal property
You - no evidence to prove what the actual function of TII was.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
He was never inside the camp.
No, they do not. The Fplo's make no mention of people disembarking at the stops.Fplo show that they never arrived but got off prior to the end point.Documents. Me - multiple documents recording mass arrivals at the camp.
You - zero documents recording mass departures from the camp.
That is not archaeological evidence, of which you have nothing to prove no mass graves, or what was buried at the site. Instead, you rely entirely on the Poles and British.Evidence of dead arriving on trains. Aerial bombing range.Archaeology. Me - site surveys proving large areas of disturbed ground, pits and cremated human remains
You - no evidence to prove undisturbed ground and so no mass graves
Others disagree and say it has other roles, of which none of you can evidence.JudenlagerCircumstances. Me - the evidence of AR, the clearing of ghettos and theft of personal property
You - no evidence to prove what the actual function of TII was.
Which witnesses are you referring to? Be specific, quote them and show what you mean.Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Jul 10, 2025 11:36 am Nessie, you really are a simple creature.
You are strawmanning my position pretty wildly very consistently.
We are arguing scale, and method.
For these burial pits, my witnesses were your witnesses in 1945, before they decided they were wrong about the grave space and so turned the whole area into mass graves in their other maps.
No, I am arguing, based on evidence (unlike your pure argument) that certain pits, such as G36 and G50-54 are graves, since they are in the area where witnesses said the graves were located and the Poles excavated and found cremated remains.You, you are arguing the tank trap, the latrine and any other hole in the ground is full of dead bodies.
The other maps drawn by witnesses, also show mass graves in the same part of the camp that the 1945 survey maps. So they all line up with GPR data.I'm looking at the evidence and I'm pointing out that in '45, 2 maps were penned that line up with the gpr data. Not only that, but, these early maps were based on cooperation of multiple witnesses. They reflect the reality of the layout of the camp. The tube is straight, the burial pits are in the right spot etc. These you dismiss saying simply, yes, but, there are other maps. Well Nessie, those other maps don't fit the study. These maps do. They are the best maps we have in the historical record. Before just calling me a dishonest party, go, look, you will see the truth of it. I'm not lying, I'm not being dishonest, I'm showing you what is there.
If it is your hypothesis that the remains found at TII, were only people who died on the trains, or inside the camp but not from being gassed, then it is up to you to evidence that. May I remind you that you have zero witnesses who say what you suggest, no documents recording mass transports of people back out of the camp and no archaeological or other evidence to support you.From this, you somehow conclude that I'm saying no mass graves.you are also throwing a bunch of completely unrelated stuff in for flavor. People don't have to be gassed to be buried Nessie, they can be transported from the ghetto to treblinka II, interrogated briefly and shot in the head for suspected partisan action, terrorism...
Toss off and jog on.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
You must still not understand corroboration. I have addressed the fact that the 1945 survey maps lining up with the GPR means that is corroborating evidence. Add the 1945 excavation evidence and the eyewitness evidence and that is all proof of mass graves.
They all locate the graves in the south eastern part of the camp. They also locate the gas chambers, staff accommodation and railway in the same parts of the camp.The other maps, well, just look at them.
'But but but, the graves are in the same spot on all the maps!'.
No, they aren't. Go look.
The Wiernik map here, is not of the camp in its entirety, it is of the gas chambers;So far as the witnesses, go look at the names on the maps, even your buddy Warnick got in on this, after he drew a map of, another camp, for his propaganda piece 'A Year in Treblinka'.
When the truth was sussed out, by a convening of witnesses, these 2 maps emerged. These maps line up with the study. The other maps, don't.