Archaeological Evidence of Mass Graves at Treblinka II

[Nessie]

Nessie, are you counting the box trench latrine as a mass grave? That's low. So is counting the broken property pits, but, counting the latrine is literally a shitty thing to do.

No, I am counting what has been identified as most likely a grave, based on size and location, so G50-54 and G36.

[Stubble]

Nessie, do me a favor and show me on the 2 early collaborative maps where they placed 7 grave spaces?

If you can't, I ask you, did they, forget the 2 largest mass graves on their map Nessie? Is that what you are going with?

The grave space is wildly insufficient. When you compare the almost contemporary maps, that were collaborative efforts, with the study, you find the 4 pits indicated by witnesses, that doesn't mean you get to start saying any return in that area was grave space, the evidence doesn't support that.

I can't believe I have to explain evidencing to you Nessie, yet, here we are.

[Nessie]

Nessie, do me a favor and show me on the 2 early collaborative maps where they placed 7 grave spaces?

They didn't. On the Kudlik, Wiernik and Trautsolt map they indicate 4 mass graves and on the Kudlik, Laks and Platkiewicz map they also indicate 4.

If you can't, I ask you, did they, forget the 2 largest mass graves on their map Nessie? Is that what you are going with?

The maps are indicative of where things were in the camp. They are not to scale, or to be regarded as definitive.

The grave space is wildly insufficient.

So you have decided, without even knowing exactly how much grave space there was and what happens when naked corpses are thrown into graves, over a period of months.

When you compare the almost contemporary maps, that were collaborative efforts, with the study, you find the 4 pits indicated by witnesses, that doesn't mean you get to start saying any return in that area was grave space, the evidence doesn't support that.

I can't believe I have to explain evidencing to you Nessie, yet, here we are.

If an eyewitness draws a plan indicating mass graves were in a certain part of a camp and a GPR survey finds pits where the witnesses say the mass graves were, that is strong corroborating evidence for mass graves. That witnesses draw 4 pits on a plan, but GPR finds 5 in that location, is not an issue, as the plans are not to be taken as definitive and witnesses forget.

[Stubble]

Nessie, when the only two maps congruent with the survey are two of the oldest, made by collaboration of witnesses and reflect exactly 4 pits, then that's what is evidenced. You are making assumptions here.

The witnesses dropped their pits where they happen to be, and even the scale is congruent as is their placement. You ignore that and you just start inserting more grave space you can not evidence. You say it's ok to do that because they drew 4 pits, so, obviously any disturbance there is a mass grave now.

You are in a hole, and you should stop digging.

[Nessie]

Nessie, when the only two maps congruent with the survey are two of the oldest, made by collaboration of witnesses and reflect exactly 4 pits, then that's what is evidenced. You are making assumptions here.

The witnesses dropped their pits where they happen to be, and even the scale is congruent as is their placement. You ignore that and you just start inserting more grave space you can not evidence. You say it's ok to do that because they drew 4 pits, so, obviously any disturbance there is a mass grave now.

You are in a hole, and you should stop digging.

The different witnesses, in their statements, said different numbers of graves. They also drew different numbers of graves on any map or plan they had a hand in. That is because not everyone remembers the same details, especially when asked to recall events after many months, if not years later.

Fact is, all the eyewitnesses, in the plans, locate the main mass graves in the south east corner of the camp and some smaller ones in the south west corner. GPR has located pits in both of those areas. That corroborates the witnesses.

You have no evidence to counter that, so you resort to arguing I am making assumptions, when in fact I have looked at the evidence from eyewitnesses, their maps and what GPR found, and they corroborate. I am not ignoring that they do not match precisely, but I would not expect them to. People will not accurately remember details such as size, and exact placement.

[Stubble]

Nessie, do any other maps of Treblinka II match the survey the way those two maps do? Are any of the other maps based on more than 1 witness?

You are inserting doubt, making gaps and exploiting that to extrapolate grave space that isn't there.

I am certain that if, for example, the tank trap were examined, it would be found to be a tank trap and not a mass grave. In the broken property disposal pits, things like broken combs and toothbrushes are found.

The only teeth you are going to find in the other grave spaces that you allege are going to be sharks teeth.

How many of these gpr returns are from digging preformed by the commissions Nessie? You don't know, you can not say.

How many are evidenced by the witnesses and borne out by the study? 5. 4 in the 'extermination area' and 1 next to the camp hospital.

Those are your evidenced mass graves. You go dig in those, and you are going to find disarticulated bodies with soft tissue and ligaments attached, you are going to find hair, and you are going to find jaws, skulls, longbones and teeth, mixed with sand.

You are going to find thousands of bodies in those pits, and that is horrifying enough. You aren't going to find anywhere near >850,000 of them though, so, I fully expect, if that ever does happen, for you to revert to the exterminationist dismissal card of 'they aktion 1005'd the bodies'.

I don't think we are going to progress the thread any further and I don't think there is much value in continuing to say the same things over and over. I understand your position, and I disagree. You seem to understand my position and you disagree. I'm not going to change your mind, and you aren't going to change mine.

Personally, I feel my position is far more tenable because it is borne out by the evidence. You, somehow think that blindly inserting grave space is fine because (insert some reason, then another, then another). Personally I think that's dishonest and I feel you are trying to manipulate the historical record and the studies to suit your preconceptions.

The mass graves there are full of 'ghetto fighters', and the war they waged on the German Army was absolute terrorism.

[Nessie]

Nessie, do any other maps of Treblinka II match the survey the way those two maps do? Are any of the other maps based on more than 1 witness?

Maps of the camp here;

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/maps.html

The maps that make an effort to show locations inside the camp, all put the mass graves in the same area. Some maps are very rough sketches, so they are not clear.

You are inserting doubt, making gaps and exploiting that to extrapolate grave space that isn't there.

I am showing you that the witnesses locate the main mass graves in the same area that GPR found a series of pits, G50-54 and that it also located pits in the Lazarette.

I am certain that if, for example, the tank trap were examined, it would be found to be a tank trap and not a mass grave. In the broken property disposal pits, things like broken combs and toothbrushes are found.

The only teeth you are going to find in the other grave spaces that you allege are going to be sharks teeth.

How many of these gpr returns are from digging preformed by the commissions Nessie? You don't know, you can not say.

That is why the report states, probable graves, because the GPR survey did not dig into them. The 1945 Polish survey did excavate that part of the camp and they found cremated remains.

How many are evidenced by the witnesses and borne out by the study? 5. 4 in the 'extermination area' and 1 next to the camp hospital.

No, G36 and G50-54 are in the extermination area and there are pits in the Lazarette.

Those are your evidenced mass graves. You go dig in those, and you are going to find disarticulated bodies with soft tissue and ligaments attached, you are going to find hair, and you are going to find jaws, skulls, longbones and teeth, mixed with sand.

You are going to find thousands of bodies in those pits, and that is horrifying enough. You aren't going to find anywhere near >850,000 of them though, so, I fully expect, if that ever does happen, for you to revert to the exterminationist dismissal card of 'they aktion 1005'd the bodies'.

If the entire area was excavated and cremains separated from the earth and ashes, I say, based on what has been found, that there would be enough to prove c850,000 had been buried there.

I don't think we are going to progress the thread any further and I don't think there is much value in continuing to say the same things over and over. I understand your position, and I disagree. You seem to understand my position and you disagree. I'm not going to change your mind, and you aren't going to change mine.

Personally, I feel my position is far more tenable because it is borne out by the evidence. You, somehow think that blindly inserting grave space is fine because (insert some reason, then another, then another). Personally I think that's dishonest and I feel you are trying to manipulate the historical record and the studies to suit your preconceptions.

Your position is not evidenced. You have no eyewitnesses, documents, archaeology, forensics or circumstantial evidence, to prove that the ground at TII is largely undisturbed, and there are no mass graves.

I am not blindly inserting grave space. There is evidence, from eyewitnesses and archaeological surveys, to prove huge areas of disturbed ground containing cremated remains and a series of pits. They are supported by documentary and circumstantial evidence of mass arrivals and no corresponding mass departures.

It is you who is being dishonest, suggesting you have evidence, when you do not and that I am not just following the evidence.

[Stubble]

You see Nessie, we both think the other is being dishonest and we both believe we are best supported by the evidence.

Our exchange here has certainly run course.

For posterity, I do want to highlight something;

I said-

Those are your evidenced mass graves. You go dig in those, and you are going to find disarticulated bodies with soft tissue and ligaments attached, you are going to find hair, and you are going to find jaws, skulls, longbones and teeth, mixed with sand.

Nessie said-

Your position is not evidenced. You have no eyewitnesses, documents, archaeology, forensics or circumstantial evidence, to prove that the ground at TII is largely undisturbed, and there are no mass graves.

Notice, the strawman

[Nessie]

You see Nessie, we both think the other is being dishonest and we both believe we are best supported by the evidence.

Our exchange here has certainly run course.

You want this to end with your claim about being supported by evidence, but I will challenge that, again. With regards to TII;

Eyewitnesses. Me - 13 German SS, 7 Ukrainian SS and 14 Jewish inmates.
You - 0

Documents. Me - multiple documents recording mass arrivals at the camp.
You - zero documents recording mass departures from the camp.

Archaeology. Me - site surveys proving large areas of disturbed ground, pits and cremated human remains
You - no evidence to prove undisturbed ground and so no mass graves

Circumstances. Me - the evidence of AR, the clearing of ghettos and theft of personal property
You - no evidence to prove what the actual function of TII was.

For posterity, I do want to highlight something;

I said-

Those are your evidenced mass graves. You go dig in those, and you are going to find disarticulated bodies with soft tissue and ligaments attached, you are going to find hair, and you are going to find jaws, skulls, longbones and teeth, mixed with sand.

Nessie said-

Your position is not evidenced. You have no eyewitnesses, documents, archaeology, forensics or circumstantial evidence, to prove that the ground at TII is largely undisturbed, and there are no mass graves.

Notice, the strawman

In 1945, the Poles conducted extensive excavations at the site and found cremated human remains. You provide zero evidence to prove that the ground was, in fact, never dug into, let alone corpses cremated and buried there.

[Nazgul]

Eyewitnesses. Me - 13 German SS, 7 Ukrainian SS and 14 Jewish inmates.
You - 0

Marian Olszuk

Documents. Me - multiple documents recording mass arrivals at the camp.
You - zero documents recording mass departures from the camp.

Fplo show that they never arrived but got off prior to the end point.

Archaeology. Me - site surveys proving large areas of disturbed ground, pits and cremated human remains
You - no evidence to prove undisturbed ground and so no mass graves

Evidence of dead arriving on trains. Aerial bombing range.

Circumstances. Me - the evidence of AR, the clearing of ghettos and theft of personal property
You - no evidence to prove what the actual function of TII was.

Judenlager

[Stubble]

Nessie, you really are a simple creature.

You are strawmanning my position pretty wildly very consistently.

We are arguing scale, and method.

For these burial pits, my witnesses were your witnesses in 1945, before they decided they were wrong about the grave space and so turned the whole area into mass graves in their other maps.

You, you are arguing the tank trap, the latrine and any other hole in the ground is full of dead bodies. I'm looking at the evidence and I'm pointing out that in '45, 2 maps were penned that line up with the gpr data. Not only that, but, these early maps were based on cooperation of multiple witnesses. They reflect the reality of the layout of the camp. The tube is straight, the burial pits are in the right spot etc. These you dismiss saying simply, yes, but, there are other maps. Well Nessie, those other maps don't fit the study. These maps do. They are the best maps we have in the historical record. Before just calling me a dishonest party, go, look, you will see the truth of it. I'm not lying, I'm not being dishonest, I'm showing you what is there.

From this, you somehow conclude that I'm saying no mass graves.you are also throwing a bunch of completely unrelated stuff in for flavor. People don't have to be gassed to be buried Nessie, they can be transported from the ghetto to treblinka II, interrogated briefly and shot in the head for suspected partisan action, terrorism...

Toss off and jog on.

[Nessie]

Eyewitnesses. Me - 13 German SS, 7 Ukrainian SS and 14 Jewish inmates.
You - 0

Marian Olszuk

He was never inside the camp.

Documents. Me - multiple documents recording mass arrivals at the camp.
You - zero documents recording mass departures from the camp.

Fplo show that they never arrived but got off prior to the end point.

No, they do not. The Fplo's make no mention of people disembarking at the stops.

Archaeology. Me - site surveys proving large areas of disturbed ground, pits and cremated human remains
You - no evidence to prove undisturbed ground and so no mass graves

Evidence of dead arriving on trains. Aerial bombing range.

That is not archaeological evidence, of which you have nothing to prove no mass graves, or what was buried at the site. Instead, you rely entirely on the Poles and British.

Circumstances. Me - the evidence of AR, the clearing of ghettos and theft of personal property
You - no evidence to prove what the actual function of TII was.

Judenlager

Others disagree and say it has other roles, of which none of you can evidence.

[Nessie]

Nessie, you really are a simple creature.

You are strawmanning my position pretty wildly very consistently.

We are arguing scale, and method.

For these burial pits, my witnesses were your witnesses in 1945, before they decided they were wrong about the grave space and so turned the whole area into mass graves in their other maps.

Which witnesses are you referring to? Be specific, quote them and show what you mean.

You, you are arguing the tank trap, the latrine and any other hole in the ground is full of dead bodies.

No, I am arguing, based on evidence (unlike your pure argument) that certain pits, such as G36 and G50-54 are graves, since they are in the area where witnesses said the graves were located and the Poles excavated and found cremated remains.

I'm looking at the evidence and I'm pointing out that in '45, 2 maps were penned that line up with the gpr data. Not only that, but, these early maps were based on cooperation of multiple witnesses. They reflect the reality of the layout of the camp. The tube is straight, the burial pits are in the right spot etc. These you dismiss saying simply, yes, but, there are other maps. Well Nessie, those other maps don't fit the study. These maps do. They are the best maps we have in the historical record. Before just calling me a dishonest party, go, look, you will see the truth of it. I'm not lying, I'm not being dishonest, I'm showing you what is there.

The other maps drawn by witnesses, also show mass graves in the same part of the camp that the 1945 survey maps. So they all line up with GPR data.

From this, you somehow conclude that I'm saying no mass graves.you are also throwing a bunch of completely unrelated stuff in for flavor. People don't have to be gassed to be buried Nessie, they can be transported from the ghetto to treblinka II, interrogated briefly and shot in the head for suspected partisan action, terrorism...

Toss off and jog on.

If it is your hypothesis that the remains found at TII, were only people who died on the trains, or inside the camp but not from being gassed, then it is up to you to evidence that. May I remind you that you have zero witnesses who say what you suggest, no documents recording mass transports of people back out of the camp and no archaeological or other evidence to support you.

[Stubble]

This is about the archeological evidence Nessie, not gas chambers.

You absolutely fail to address the fact that these 2 maps line up with the GPR/LIDAR and the rest, don't. They locate the 4 pits to where they actually are.

The other maps, well, just look at them.

'But but but, the graves are in the same spot on all the maps!'.

No, they aren't. Go look.

So far as the witnesses, go look at the names on the maps, even your buddy Warnick got in on this, after he drew a map of, another camp, for his propaganda piece 'A Year in Treblinka'.

When the truth was sussed out, by a convening of witnesses (two separate convenings, two separate maps, both congruent with one another and the study), these 2 maps emerged. These maps line up with the study. The other maps, don't.

[Nessie]

This is about the archeological evidence Nessie, not gas chambers.

You absolutely fail to address the fact that these 2 maps line up with the GPR/LIDAR and the rest, don't. They locate the 4 pits to where they actually are.

You must still not understand corroboration. I have addressed the fact that the 1945 survey maps lining up with the GPR means that is corroborating evidence. Add the 1945 excavation evidence and the eyewitness evidence and that is all proof of mass graves.

The other maps, well, just look at them.

'But but but, the graves are in the same spot on all the maps!'.

No, they aren't. Go look.

They all locate the graves in the south eastern part of the camp. They also locate the gas chambers, staff accommodation and railway in the same parts of the camp.

So far as the witnesses, go look at the names on the maps, even your buddy Warnick got in on this, after he drew a map of, another camp, for his propaganda piece 'A Year in Treblinka'.

When the truth was sussed out, by a convening of witnesses, these 2 maps emerged. These maps line up with the study. The other maps, don't.

The Wiernik map here, is not of the camp in its entirety, it is of the gas chambers;

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bmap23.jpg

His other map here, is of the whole camp, and he locates the staff quarters, railway line, gas chambers, main grave and Lazarete graves in the same parts of the camp that other maps locate them.

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bmap22.jpg