The Chelmno Trials

[Stubble]

Does anyone have the 'investigation reports' prepared in '45-'46, the minutes for the Polish trials and the minutes for the German trials handy?

I'd like to go over this stuff and get a bit of a refresher before I approach another thread concerning the legendary Aktion 1005.

In the mean time I will keep digging. If I run across this stuff, I will link it back here as I do, lest I forget.

Thanks in advance.

[Stubble]

interestingly, contrary to an assertion made by SanityCheck in another thread about the availability of information in the digital super age, these items appear to all be inaccessible on the internet.

I can not find the primary source material to review, in 2025...

I wanted to make sure my powder was dry and I had all of my facts and sources in order and cited before engaging in discourse on this subject with Bombsaway in the Aktion 1005 thread (the missing evidence was perpetually excused away with Aktion 1005). Unfortunately, without these primary sources to cite and to reference, I am under equipped for that argument.

Such is life.

Nick, no, even in this day and age, everything isn't literally at anyone's fingertips, and sometimes, stuff is completely unavailable for review...

[Archie]

There was the early Polish trial and then more trials in West Germany in the 1960s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che%C5%82mno_trials

For the earliest trial, the Polish judge was Bednarz.
https://holocaustencyclopedia.com/histo ... yslaw/395/

I have not seen the complete original trial transcripts for this (the Eastern European stuff is generally harder to find). But the site below has a large collection of statements from the early trials in Poland. I haven't looked specifically for Chelmno, but go ahead and see what you find. I would gather witness names from secondary sources and then search for the actual texts on here.
https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra

As for the later West German trials, they have put the Frankfurt Auschwitz trial materials online, but as far as I know this is not the case with the Chelmno trials.
https://www.auschwitz-prozess.de/

For the main secondary sources, there is HH#23 on Chelmno. And for the orthodox side, the main book is Chelmno and the Holocaust by Patrick Montague.

[Stubble]

These are great resources Archie, thank you.

It is unfortunate that the minutes of the various trials and the Soviet investigations are not readily available.

Basically all I have been able to turn up on this on my own was a paper by SanityCheck.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 18.1524632

He appears to hold the same position on this as Nessie and Bombsaway are crowing in the thread;

While Nazi deception measures are more vividly recorded in postwar testimonies, this article also shows that Nazi attempts to erase the physical evidence of mass murder through the cremation of the corpses can be documented much more extensively than hitherto appreciated using contemporary sources.

Kind of astounding considering that the lack of evidence was the reason for the incredibly light sentences handed out at the west German trials. I don't know about the Polish trials, but, I assume the result was much the same.

This retcon of history regarding what evidence is or is not in a place having nothing to do with the supposed Aktion 1005 is perplexing. My whole life I had been hearing, 'oh, the nazis destroyed everything with this program of burning and ball mills'. Now, apparently, all the evidence anyone ever needed is right there on the spot.

No, no, the bodies at chelmno weren't thrown in the river and washed out to sea, no, they are right there.

It is a head scratcher.

I also just found this;

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... ation_camp

I haven't read it yet. There is also a Polish article 12 pages long from 2020 in some library publication. My Polish sucks though, so, it looks like a soup sandwich to me.

[Hans]

I recommend the following reading materials for your educational journey:

Sonderkommando Kulmhof in German Documents - Body Disposal
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... man12.html

Sonderkommando Kulmhof in German Documents - Body Disposal (Appendix)
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... man15.html

https://holocausthistory.site/evidence- ... o-kulmhof/

[Hans]

Polish investigations and postwar trial records are digitized and available for on-site review at the IPN (Instytut Pamięci Narodowej) in Warsaw or its branches (e.g., Łodz, if you are visiting Chełmno anyway).

The records of West-German investigations coordinated under the Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen zur Aufklärung nationalsozialistischer Verbrechen can be found digitalized for on-site review at the Bundesarchiv branch in Ludwigsburg.

Records from the Bonn prosecution are preserved at the Landesarchiv NRW, Abteilung Rheinland in Duisburg.

The Records of the investigation of Gustav Fiedler are available at the Landesarchiv Schleswig-Holstein in Schleswig.

So, if you really want to dig deep into the subject, how about a summer research adventure?

Ludwigsburg --> Duisburg --> Schleswig --> Chełmno --> Łodz --> Warsaw



I think would be more enlightening than any ill-researched entry at Rudolf's "encyclopedia" or Mattogno's handbooks.

[Archie]

Polish investigations and postwar trial records are digitized and available for on-site review at the IPN (Instytut Pamięci Narodowej) in Warsaw or its branches (e.g., Łodz, if you are visiting Chełmno anyway).

The records of West-German investigations coordinated under the Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen zur Aufklärung nationalsozialistischer Verbrechen can be found digitalized for on-site review at the Bundesarchiv branch in Ludwigsburg.

Records from the Bonn prosecution are preserved at the Landesarchiv NRW, Abteilung Rheinland in Duisburg.

The Records of the investigation of Gustav Fiedler are available at the Landesarchiv Schleswig-Holstein in Schleswig.

So, if you really want to dig deep into the subject, how about a summer research adventure?

Ludwigsburg --> Duisburg --> Schleswig --> Chełmno --> Łodz --> Warsaw



I think would be more enlightening than any ill-researched entry at Rudolf's "encyclopedia" or Mattogno's handbooks.

So ... everything is already digitized but they have, for utterly arbitrary reasons, restricted access to "on-site review" only, making it impractical for any normal person with a regular job to visit. Thank you for the info, but most of us will have to make do with the sampling of testimonies quoted in more readily available sources.

I have never considered Chelmno much of a priority, but I do have one point that I am curious about which you may know the answer to if you have reviewed this material. There is a well-known war-time report called the Szlamek report that describes the gas vans as having some unspecified type of gas stored in a separate container in the driver's cabin. In contrast, it seems all (?) of the postwar testimonies either say that the gas van used exhaust as the gas or they are vague/ambiguous and don't really explain the exact mechanism. Are you aware of any postwar testimonies that describe the same gassing procedure as what is found in the Szlamek report? I have yet to find one.

[Stubble]

Thank you for letting me know where to physically appear in person to review the files.

I might try a letter first and see how much they would charge to mail me a zip of the files first.

The tidbit at the end however was as unnecessary as it would be for me to tell you to piss up a rope.

Makes for a spicy exchange, but, it doesn't do much for constructive dialogue.

[Hans]

I have never considered Chelmno much of a priority, but I do have one point that I am curious about which you may know the answer to if you have reviewed this material. There is a well-known war-time report called the Szlamek report

yeah, heard about it:

https://holocausthistory.site/1942-02-0 ... tion-camp/

that describes the gas vans as having some unspecified type of gas stored in a separate container in the driver's cabin. In contrast, it seems all (?) of the postwar testimonies either say that the gas van used exhaust as the gas or they are vague/ambiguous and don't really explain the exact mechanism. Are you aware of any postwar testimonies that describe the same gassing procedure as what is found in the Szlamek report? I have yet to find one.

At the time Winer was imprisoned in Chelmno, the Sonderkommando Kulmhof operated two gas vans using gasoline engine exhaust directed into the cargo box. Winer did not personally witness the gassings - he explicitly states that the details were passed on to him by other Jewish prisoners involved in unloading the bodies. Given the conditions -SS and police guards present, Jewish prisoners had no access to the cabin - it's entirely plausible that the prisoners could not see the full mechanism. This is crucial, as a witness's description can only be as accurate and detailed as the observer point allows.

What they could observe was that the pipes delivering the gas came from the direction of the driver's cabin and that the driver controlled the process from there. From this, they apparently inferred that a "special apparatus" was located in the cabin. They didn’t realize that the pipes were connected to the engine’s exhaust system.

This is not evidence of a false testimony - it's a case of limited perspective. In fact, what the prisoners could observe when working inside the cargo box is largely consistent with other sources:

"The interior was lined with metal. There were no seats. On the floor were wooden slats like in a bathhouse, with a straw mat laid over them. Between the cargo area and the driver’s seat were two windows through which an electric lamp was used to look inside to check whether the victims were already dead. Under the wooden slats were two pipes, about two […] centimeters thick, coming from the driver’s cabin."

[Hans]

The tidbit at the end however was as unnecessary as it would be for me to tell you to piss up a rope.

Makes for a spicy exchange, but, it doesn't do much for constructive dialogue.

Honestly, spending 2 weeks travelling to Ludwigsburg, Chelmno, Warsaw - combined with sightseeing - is not exactly unbearable burden for anyone who genuinely wants to study this extermination camp in depth.

[Stubble]

I think you misunderstand...

We are not in disagreement about a tour of Europe on a quest for truth and knowledge.

[Wahrheitssucher]

The tidbit at the end however was as unnecessary as it would be for me to tell you to piss up a rope.

Makes for a spicy exchange, but, it doesn't do much for constructive dialogue.

Honestly, spending 2 weeks travelling to Ludwigsburg, Chelmno, Warsaw — combined with sightseeing — is not exactly unbearable burden for anyone who genuinely wants to study this extermination camp in depth.

And this reply demonstrates why those who DID do deep-dive investigations, who visted the sites, who DID comb through the archives and then wrote and published their research-findings, don’t waste their time arguing about the facts on internet discussion forums with obfuscators and deludes.

We have people like Hans, N.Terry, Bombsaway, Spink, ConfusedJew, etc., who appear not to be in discussion to seek clarity and truth. They appear to be here to conceal and confuse.

Like Hans here, they rely on the fact that extremely few people have the time, resources or money to “spend 2 weeks travelling to Ludwigsburg, Chelmno, Warsaw — combined with sightseeing — [to] genuinely study this extermination camp in depth”.
The preposterous implication here is that if you haven’t done that then you aren’t “genuinely” studying the hopelessly flawed mass-gassing narrative.
Which is piss-poor reasoning.
Plus transparently ingenuine.

[Hans]

The tidbit at the end however was as unnecessary as it would be for me to tell you to piss up a rope.

Makes for a spicy exchange, but, it doesn't do much for constructive dialogue.

Honestly, spending 2 weeks travelling to Ludwigsburg, Chelmno, Warsaw — combined with sightseeing — is not exactly unbearable burden for anyone who genuinely wants to study this extermination camp in depth.

And this reply demonstrates why those who DID do deep-dive investigations, who visted the sites, who DID comb through the archives and then wrote and published their research-findings, don’t waste their time arguing about the facts on internet discussion forums with obfuscators and deludes.

I would largely agree - with exceptions. Take me, for example: I have done deep-dive investigations. I’ve visited all the sites mentioned, combed through the archives, published some of my research findings. And yet, I still "waste" my time debating facts with obfuscators and deluded types on internet forums. Just calling it a "waste" is too harsh, maybe it's a bad habit, but one that does not do much harm.

Like Hans here, they rely on the fact that extremely few people have the time, resources or money to “spend 2 weeks travelling to Ludwigsburg, Chelmno, Warsaw — combined with sightseeing — [to] genuinely study this extermination camp in depth”.
The preposterous implication here is that if you haven’t done that then you aren’t “genuinely” studying the hopelessly flawed mass-gassing narrative.

If your goal is to radically overturn an established consensus on any major, then yes, you'd better master the topic. I guess that's also precisely the intention of the OP.

Historical sources, many preserved in archives, are the major ingridient to modern history. It’s one thing to complain that not all archives over the world have yet fully digitized and made their collections freely available online. That's a fair discussion. But it’s something entirely different to deny that understanding the primary sources is a prerequisite for drawing radically different conclusions from the historical consensus.

[Stubble]

If your goal is to radically overturn an established consensus on any major, then yes, you'd better master the topic. I guess that's also precisely the intention of the OP.

Solid guess

[Archie]

I have never considered Chelmno much of a priority, but I do have one point that I am curious about which you may know the answer to if you have reviewed this material. There is a well-known war-time report called the Szlamek report

yeah, heard about it:

https://holocausthistory.site/1942-02-0 ... tion-camp/

that describes the gas vans as having some unspecified type of gas stored in a separate container in the driver's cabin. In contrast, it seems all (?) of the postwar testimonies either say that the gas van used exhaust as the gas or they are vague/ambiguous and don't really explain the exact mechanism. Are you aware of any postwar testimonies that describe the same gassing procedure as what is found in the Szlamek report? I have yet to find one.

At the time Winer was imprisoned in Chelmno, the Sonderkommando Kulmhof operated two gas vans using gasoline engine exhaust directed into the cargo box. Winer did not personally witness the gassings - he explicitly states that the details were passed on to him by other Jewish prisoners involved in unloading the bodies. Given the conditions -SS and police guards present, Jewish prisoners had no access to the cabin - it's entirely plausible that the prisoners could not see the full mechanism. This is crucial, as a witness's description can only be as accurate and detailed as the observer point allows.

What they could observe was that the pipes delivering the gas came from the direction of the driver's cabin and that the driver controlled the process from there. From this, they apparently inferred that a "special apparatus" was located in the cabin. They didn’t realize that the pipes were connected to the engine’s exhaust system.

This is not evidence of a false testimony - it's a case of limited perspective. In fact, what the prisoners could observe when working inside the cargo box is largely consistent with other sources:

"The interior was lined with metal. There were no seats. On the floor were wooden slats like in a bathhouse, with a straw mat laid over them. Between the cargo area and the driver’s seat were two windows through which an electric lamp was used to look inside to check whether the victims were already dead. Under the wooden slats were two pipes, about two […] centimeters thick, coming from the driver’s cabin."

Most secondary sources say that the Chelmno vans were exhaust-based. But Montague, seemingly in an attempt to salvage the Szlamek report, theorizes that the testimony accurately describes a van with a bottled CO mechanism but this design was supplanted with the exhaust design. He claims they had both designs at Chelmno in Jan 1942. But I think the problem with this is 1) Szlamek knows nothing at all about exhaust gassings. Not only this, he describes two vans and says they were the same, contradicting Montague's speculation that there was one CO van along side the exhaust vans. 2) There seem to be zero postwar witnesses who know anything about a CO van at Chelmno. They say the vans used exhaust. This discrepancy suggests to me an evolving story, not legit witnesses describing real events. Note also that the Soviets began pushing exhaust-based gas vans quite heavily in 1943 which would explain the transition in the story.