9/11 discussion [split]

[Joe Splink]

Another unfortunate take of Denierbud is his view on Osama bin Laden and, by extension, on 9/11.

What do you make of this vid in which Bin Laden speaks as the mastermind of 9/11?


From my perspective the surreal thing (we live in a surreal world) about 9/11 is that it is now believed without a hint of doubt by the US population that the US was the victim of an unprovoked attack by 'terrorists', when in fact the US had invaded the ME (Iraq) in 1991 and bombed Iraq continuously and almost daily for 10 years after. And, it was used as a justification for the US planning to attack 7 countries in the ME - as per the vid by Wesley Clark (all have been attacked, Iran was the last). There is a Sixty Minutes vid of Leslie Stahl in 1995 asking Madeleine Albright, US Sec. of State, "As many as 500,000 children have died as a result of the US bombing of Iraq - do you think the results achieved were worth it?" and Albright replies, "Yes, it was worth it".

[Wahrheitssucher]

Another unfortunate take of Denierbud is his view on Osama bin Laden and, by extension, on 9/11.

What do you make of this vid in which Bin Laden speaks as the mastermind of 9/11?


From my perspective the surreal thing (we live in a surreal world) about 9/11 is that it is now believed without a hint of doubt by the US population that the US was the victim of an unprovoked attack by 'terrorists', when in fact the US had invaded the ME (Iraq) in 1991 and bombed Iraq continuously and almost daily for 10 years after. And, it was used as a justification for the US planning to attack 7 countries in the ME — as per the vid by Wesley Clark (all have been attacked, Iran was the last). There is a Sixty Minutes vid of Leslie Stahl in 1995 asking Madeleine Albright, US Sec. of State, "As many as 500,000 children have died as a result of the US bombing of Iraq — do you think the results achieved were worth it?" and Albright replies, "Yes, it was worth it".

How’s your Arabic, Joe?

This is what I think of the video: the subtitles do not accurately represent what was said.

I know enough Arabic to know when someone says “Allah is great” ( = Allah hoo Akbar) and “to God the praise ( = Alhamdulillah).
Anyone can learn these simple phrases. They can then test for themselves when it was put as the subtitle but wasn’t said.

SUMMARY:
This is a bogus transcription from the Americans.

A German TV channel broadcast an analysis of this translation on the 20th December in 2001. They got three experts to check the subtitles and to see how accurate a rendering they were of what could be heard on the tape.
Those experts were:
Dr. Abdel El M. Husseini, researcher of Arabic culture,
Dr. Murad Alami, certified translator,
Professor Gernot Rotter, Islamic researcher and researcher of Arabic culture at Asien-Afrika-Institut, University of Hamburg, Germany.

Professor Gernot Rotter concluded this:
“Independently of whether Bin Laden himself was involved, organizational actively in the assassinations or not, this tape is of such poor quality that it is impossible to understand at times. And what can be understood is often taken out of context, so that it cannot be used to construct any evidence. The American translators, who have listened to the tapes and transcribed them, have apparently in many cases added things that they wanted to hear but cannot be heard, not even after having listened to it several times.”

[Joe Splink]

And what can be understood is often taken out of context, so that it cannot be used to construct any evidence.

And that convinces you ??? Not me.

I don't necessarily believe the translation, but then again I don't necessarily disbelieve it. And, it's a pretty definite and damning translation, so I'd expect any serious effort to debunk it would provide an accurate translation. I.e. not vague allusions like the above. And if the translation is bogus I'd expect a serious effort to debunk it. Plus, I'd like to know what they were really saying.

Hey, we can ask Deepseek - "A German TV channel broadcast an analysis of this translation of a bin laden conversation on the 20th December in 2001." produces an account of the German analysis. It includes a couple of references - the Tora Bora report which it claims (elsehwhere) contains a discussion of the translation, but I looked at the Tora Bora report and didn't find any, and this
https://publicintelligence.net/osama-bi ... ranscript/
which references another (?) translation -

Transcript and annotations independently prepared by George Michael, translator, Diplomatic Language Services; and Dr. Kassem M. Wahba, Arabic language program coordinator, School of Advanced International Studies, Johns Hopkins University. They collaborated on their translation and compared it with translations done by the U.S. government for consistency. There were no inconsistencies in the translations.)

- it includes the translation of the entire tape which is apparently an hour long.

We can also ask Grok - which tells us that the Michael translation was an independent translation that verified the govt. translation - but that was only when queried about it directly.
f
The grok answer to the original question - it's a long answer and it points out that there are no independent translations from other sources !!! (contradicting the Michael translation), and summarizes ...

Summary
For Accuracy: The U.S. translation is supported by official government validation, contextual alignment with bin Laden’s known actions, multiple translator involvement, and a lack of widespread contradictory analyses. However, these arguments rely heavily on the credibility of U.S. institutions and lack independent corroboration from neutral parties.

For Inaccuracy: The German "Monitor" analysis provides direct evidence of discrepancies through independent expert reviews, highlighting specific mismatches between the Arabic audio and English translation. Critics also point to linguistic ambiguities and potential U.S. bias as factors undermining the translation’s reliability.

So the German report apparently does cite specific mistranslations (but we don't know what they are).

My conclusion - inconclusive

Note: it's not unusual for AI to contradict itself, and if you inform it of the contradiction it corrects itself (only in the current conversation) ... all and all .... I have found AI to be unbelievably good on most things (excluding anything involving Jews, e.g. the holohoax - ask it why the Soviets hid the Auschwitz records while saying the Nazis had destroyed them to see it scramble!)

[Wetzelrad]

So the German report apparently does cite specific mistranslations (but we don't know what they are).

One such mistranslation is "we calculated in advance the number of casualties". The words "in advance" were added by translators to make it sound incriminating.

Another is "We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day." which was another Frankenstein of actual words and imagined ones.

This I get from James Corbett.
https://corbettreport.com/alqaeda/

Who himself cites Craig Morris in a piece shared on David Irving's website. According to Morris the story was big in the German press but ignored by English-speaking media. That might explain why AI is unable to clarify the issue for you.
https://fpp.co.uk/online/02/01/Laden/ta ... nitor.html

[Wahrheitssucher]

And what can be understood is often taken out of context, so that it cannot be used to construct any evidence.

And that convinces you ???
Not me.

Yes, that convinces me. Because it corroborates what I MYSELF CAN HEAR and WHICH IS NOT what the subtitles claim. I explained this to you and gave you a method to test for yourself.
Didn’t you try it?
Or perhaps you didn’t understand the explanation given to you? If so, perhaps re-read what I wrote.

I don't necessarily believe the translation, but then again I don't necessarily disbelieve it. And, it's a pretty definite and damning translation…

Of course it is “damning”. That was the intention.

…so I'd expect any serious effort to debunk it would provide an accurate translation. I.e. not vague allusions like the above.

Have you done a search? The three experts I mentioned did exactly that. You appear to be arguing from a position of ignorance. I recommend you do a search. Or ask for help. Understand that search engines and Ai aren’t programmed to help refute the western false narratives.

And if the translation is bogus I'd expect a serious effort to debunk it. Plus, I'd like to know what they were really saying.

Then do a search. It isn’t wise to just believe the Americans and the dual-nationaly US-zios who were undoubtedly involved in this deception. It beats me why anyone would trust them when we KNOW WITH CERTAINTY that they lied on numerous other things related to Usama Bin Laden and 911!
We KNOW someone produced fake videos claimed to be of Usama!
And we KNOW that the Americans/Israelis released them to news outlets who shared them AS IF they were genuine.
Maybe you don’t know about this, Joe. If so, I encourage you to do a search and check for yourself.

Hey, we can ask Deepseek…
We can also ask Grok…

Summary for Inaccuracy: The German "Monitor" analysis provides direct evidence of discrepancies through independent expert reviews, highlighting specific mismatches between the Arabic audio and English translation. Critics also point to linguistic ambiguities and potential U.S. bias as factors undermining the translation’s reliability.

So the German report apparently does cite specific mistranslations (but we don't know what they are).

CORRECTION: YOU currently “don't know what they are”. It is not wise to project your current ignorance upon others

My conclusion - inconclusive

Your “conclusion” relies upon America Ai. Again, it is not wise to trust them.

Note: it's not unusual for AI to contradict itself, and if you inform it of the contradiction it corrects itself (only in the current conversation) ... all and all .... I have found AI to be unbelievably good on most things (excluding anything involving Jews, e.g. the holohoax - ask it why the Soviets hid the Auschwitz records while saying the Nazis had destroyed them to see it scramble!)

In my experience Ai is hopeless on a great many topics. I’ve caught it numerous times giving me false information.
ChatGPT actually invented numerous rhyming quotes in a foreign language that it claimed included a specific term that I was researching and which it claimed were in a specific book on specific pages. I have access to numerous translations of that book plus to the vernacular original, so checked and couldn't find ANY of the five rhyming couplets it claimed were in there.
When I explained this and asked where it got the false info from, it lied and told me from other related sources.
When I asked it to specify which exact sources, it then admitted that it didn’t have any.
I then asked it why it had done that.
It told me it is programmed to give a reply that is based upon the most likely answer, based upon probabilities.
I then asked it to provide any reference to this particular term in those other related sources it had mentioned.
It gave me three references to three sources with a page number for each.
I checked one of them. It was again not there. It had ‘lied’ to me AGAIN even after I had just caught it doing that and had got it to admit and justify/explain why it had done that.
Conclusion:
ChatGPT is programmed to very convincingly invent stuff to match some programmed probability and to meet a predicted/suspected ‘want’ of the enquirer.

BOTTOM LINE:
EVERYTHING we in the west are told about Usama Bin Laden by our governments and msm is designed to portray him as an ‘evil enemy’ and as a ‘terrorist’, and relies on false and forged ‘evidence’, etc. If anyone believes that characterisation of him then they have been duped.

A RELIABLE SOURCE and REBUTTAL:
Here is what I consider a credible translation of an interview with Usama from a reliable source. It is from a Pakistani reporter and was conducted on the 28th September 2001.

https://scholarship.tricolib.brynmawr.e ... 16/content

Here is the article’s preamble. It narrates how Usama correctly identified jews as the ones who were behind the 911 attacks. Something conformed by numerous others including Dr. Alan Sabrosky https://archive.org/details/israel-did ... ar-college; Christopher Bollyn in his book ‘Solving 9-11: The deception that changed the world’; Kourosh Ziabari https://kouroshziabari.com/2013/01/mos ... 1-attacks/; Philip Giraldi; Police Sgt. Scott DeCarlo https://archive.org/details/911copbrea ... 20Attacks/etc.

Interview published in newspaper Ummat Karachi
The Al-Qaidah group had nothing to do with the 11 September attacks on the USA, according to Usama bin Ladin in an interview with the Pakistani newspaper Ummat.
Usama bin Ladin went on to suggest that Jews or US secret services were behind the attacks, and to express gratitude and support for Pakistan, urging Pakistan’s people to jihad against the West.
The following is the text of an interview conducted by a "special correspondent", published in the Pakistani newspaper Ummat on 28 September, place and date of interview not given.

Here is the answer Usama gave on his involvement in the 911 attacks:

UMMAT: You have been accused of involvement in the attacks in New York and Washington. What do you want to say about this? If you are not involved, who might be?

USAMA BIN LADEN: In the name of Allah (God), the most beneficent, the most merciful. Praise be to Allah, Who is the creator of the whole universe and Who made the Earth as an abode for peace, for the whole humankind. Allah is the Sustainer, who sent Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) for our guidance. I am thankful to the Ummat Group of Publications, which gave me the opportunity to convey my viewpoint to the people, particularly the valiant and momin (true Muslim) people of Pakistan who refused to believe the lies of the demon (Pakistani military dictator General Pervez Musharraf).
I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle.

[Wahrheitssucher]

I dismiss the 'inside job' version as pure idiocy. The alternative to Bin Laden is Mossad, or both).

You appear to not understand that Mossad ‘sayanim’ are successfully infiltrated ‘inside’ ALL European, Canadian, Australian and American institutions.
I recommend reading the exposé of how that works written by an ex-Mossad Jewish Israeli-Canadian agent, Victor Ostrovosky.
Here: https://archive.org/details/pdfy-fkyMnNzkeT5fzxTg

Victor John Ostrovsky is a former katsa (case officer) for Sayanim for the Israeli Mossad. He was born in Canada and raised in Israel. He authored two nonfiction books about his service with the Mossad.

When you understand what ‘sayanim’ are then you will be able to understand how 911 was BOTH a Mossad operation AND an ‘inside job’.

[Joe Splink]

Wait a minute .... let's stick with the topic of the translations .... now we have 3, the original US, the Michael translation which agrees, and the German translation which is unknown to me. We do know that the report on the German translation on the Irving site gives the following example of a discrepancy found in the US translation - "in advance' was not present in the German translation. I cited the paragraph containing 'in advance' in the US/Michael translation -


"UBL: (…Inaudible…) we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (…Inaudible…) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for.

And I claimed that striking 'in advance' doesn't change the meaning of the paragraph, as it is clear that Bin Laden is referring to what he thought before the attack ... e.g. "We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors."
Thus, I conclude that what I know about the German translation is inconclusive. Beyond that, citing the missing 'in advance' as disproving the gist of the US/Michael translation is misleading. True or false?

Note 1: for me 'inside job' equates to controlled demolition. That did not happen FRTMTL (for reasons too many to list).
Note 2: if Bin Laden did orchestrate the 9/11 attack it would not make him a villain in my opinion, for reasons cited, that the US had bombed the ME continuously, almost daily, for 10 years before 9/11. The 'unprovoked attack' is the real deception.

[Wahrheitssucher]

Wait a minute... let's stick with the topic of the translations...
Note 1: for me 'inside job' equates to controlled demolition. That did not happen FRTMTL (for reasons too many to list).
Note 2: if Bin Laden did orchestrate the 9/11 attack it would not make him a villain in my opinion, for reasons cited, that the US had bombed the ME continuously, almost daily, for 10 years before 9/11. The 'unprovoked attack' is the real deception.

Nah! I’ve checked out the accuracy of the ‘translated’ subtitles aaaaaand …I’m 99.999% sure it is bogus on all the statements incriminating Usama.

Plus… Of course all three towers came down by controlled demolition. With WTC7 that is a no-brainer. Steel structures do not and can not collapse symmetrically at free-fall speed from office fires. It is physically I M P O S S I B L E. This is basic physics.

With all three towers it is extremely obvious — and was extremely clear from day 1 — that they were controlled demolitions.

So… Now I’m curious. Do you also believe the WHO and governmental statements, policies and their co-ordinated response around the western world to the Covid 19 ‘pandemic’ were genuinely motivated by concern for our health ? Do you think THAT the official narrative on that and around compulsory injections was also all above board and kosher?
Did you get ‘vaccinated’/injected and double boostered while wandering around with non-protective a fairly useless face-mask? I’m genuinely asking

Whatever… May I suggest you need to be more skeptical, mistrusting of government, and maybe do some research of the now voluminous evidence for controlled demolition of the three WTC towers.

In my opinion the most OBVIOUS evidence for an ‘inside’ Mossad orchestrated ‘job’ was that multiple levels of perfectly undamaged steel floors in the three towers CAN NOT collapse at almost free-fall speed; nor would they collapse almost totally symmetrically into their own footprints; nor would huge chunks ‘explode’ outwards during decent if it was a ‘pancake’ implosion.
If they could do all the above there would need to be a huge re-evaluation and overhaul of current engineering and architectural knowledge and appliance of it. Yet there wasn’t and hasn’t been. How do YOU explain that?

Usama bin Laden DID NOT have pre-knowledge of, nor did he orchestrate, the 9/11 attacks! He said so VERY CLEARLY.

Nor COULD he orchestrate the obvious cover up in the US government, law-enforcement and secret services;
nor could he arrange for the confiscation of all the video evidence from all the nearby cameras around the Pentagon;
nor could he arrange for the cover-up of missing plane parts, luggage, bodies, etc., at the Pentagon and the field in Pennsylvania where flight 93 is alleged to have vanished into a hole in the ground;
nor could he arrange for Bibi Netanyahu to say in a televised interview that this was good for Israel;
nor could he arrange for the dancing, celebrating Mossad agents to admit on Israeli TV that they had prior knowledge and were there filming to “document the event”,
nor could he arrange for all the steel from the debris be shipped out to be recycled in China BEFORE an investigatiin of it could be conducted;
he nor could he…
etc., etc., etc.

[Stubble]

There is also able danger to consider, the fact that the CIA let some of the hijackers in to the us and did not alert the FBI, the fact that mossad had agents living 3 doors down from the hijackers in Florida, the fact that urban moving had a truck at Boston Logan, a truck in new York 'documenting the event', and a truck ik shanksville. The failed polygraph tests. There was another program tracking bin laden I forget the name of that had the hijackers under surveillance and wasn't allowed to alert the FBI.

This is scratching the surface only, I could go on for literally hours.

No need to get super deep in minutia though, building 7 should make things patently obvious. If it isn't enough, look at the nist study controversy and the clash between nist and UL.

There is the classic operations smoke screen of a training exercise on the day of the event as well, something you see in Iran contra and with 7/7 which is a tell of a false flag.

[Joe Splink]

Usama bin Laden DID NOT have pre-knowledge of, nor did he orchestrate, the 9/11 attacks! He said so VERY CLEARLY.

Yes, I'm aware of that, and it is a very convincing statement. So, I was surprised when I came across the tape of him discussing the planning. But then, I couldn't find anyone debunking the tape, I wasn't aware of the German article, and the tape seemed legit to me, so ... i decided the question was open for me. And, I think I've clearly demonstrated the German article is suspect. So the question is still open.

We'll never agree on 9/11 ---- but --- the problem with the controlled demolition version is that in that version the only purpose of the planes (assuming you agree there were planes involved ) was to cover the tracks of the plotters. So, what's the obvious problem? My very short answer is at the bottom.

I posted this on Unz and got this very long response .... which ignored my question and answer ..... but he gave another example of the failure of 'epistemic contextualism' that I think it's brilliant ....
-----------
9/11 Truthers are not very skilled at epistemic contextualism. They don't track the plot; they don't think about how things would have to be done and what kind of preparations that would entail, and who would have to know about them; they don't care about who is saying what to whom and why, and what they knew at the time. They just lift facts and snippets of dialogue out of context and assemble them into alternative explanations of reality.

One particularly egregious example of this is the mythology they've woven around Larry Silverstein saying "maybe the best thing to do is to pull it."

The Truthers would have us believe that this was Silverstein giving the order to proceed with the controlled demolition of Building 7, but this makes no sense at all in context.

First of all, the quote comes from an interview Silverstein was doing for a PBS documentary. It was him talking about an event that occurred several years in the past. And what was he talking about? He was talking about a telephone conversation he had with the Fire Commander on 9/11. If this had anything to do with a controlled demolition, we would have to assume the following:

First, we would have to assume that Building 7 was already prewired for demolition. We would have to assume that both Larry Silverstein and the Fire Commander knew this and were in on the plot to demolish the building, since that is supposedly what they were talking about. We would have to assume that the Fire Commander, even though he intended to blow up the building, for some reason allowed his men in and around the building to fight the fires that were burning there, where they might be blown up or at the very least discover some evidence of the planted explosives. Then we would have to assume that the masterminds of 9/11, having no clear plan as to when they wanted Building 7 to come down, left this critical decision strangely in the hands of Larry Silverstein and the Fire Commander. We have to assume that either Silverstein or the Commander had access to the controls to initiate the demolition, or were in communication with the people who did have such access (in which case, since their locations and communications at the time were known, would be an easily discoverable smoking gun). And finally, to crown it all, we have to assume that, after going through all this elaborate maskirovka to pull off the crime of the century, Larry Silverstein decides to just casually admit to it all on national television.

This is the theorizing of people who cannot tell fantasy from reality, who never outgrew the phase of childhood when they think the people on sitcom television are both real and looking back at them, and who have a talismanic and magical conception of language rather than a logical one. These are the 9/11 Truthers.

The ineptly named "Truth" movement has done irreparable damage to the collective sanity of our society. It has accustomed tens of millions of people to the dangerous habits of sloppy, decontextualized thinking and of believing things without evidence and without reason. And it has created an heuristic out of the loopy notion that official sources always lie about everything, and since they always lie about everything, any crazy-ass alternative notion I come up with must be the truth. This is a recipe for civilizational disaster that has done more harm to our society than the 9/11 attacks themselves.
-------------------------
OK, that's one example of the truthers' failure of epistemic contextualism, i.e. considering things in context.

Here's another - back to my example - The truthers' scenario, that the plotters used airplanes to disguise the controlled demolitions, is absurd because they only flew planes into 2 of the buildings.

There is a long list of other reasons the truthers' version is ridiculous ... but this is not the place .

[Wahrheitssucher]

Usama bin Laden DID NOT have pre-knowledge of, nor did he orchestrate, the 9/11 attacks! He said so VERY CLEARLY.

Yes, I'm aware of that, and it is a very convincing statement. So, I was surprised when I came across the tape of him discussing the planning. But then, I couldn't find anyone debunking the tape, I wasn't aware of the German article, and the tape seemed legit to me, so ... i decided the question was open for me. And, I think I've clearly demonstrated the German article is suspect. So the question is still open.

We'll never agree on 9/11 ---- but --- the problem with the controlled demolition version is that in that version the only purpose of the planes (assuming you agree there were planes involved ) was to cover the tracks of the plotters. So, what's the obvious problem? My very short answer is at the bottom… [snip]

OK, that's one example of the truthers' failure of epistemic contextualism, i.e. considering things in context.

Here's another - back to my example - The truthers' scenario, that the plotters used airplanes to disguise the controlled demolitions, is absurd because they only flew planes into 2 of the buildings.

There is a long list of other reasons the truthers' version is ridiculous... .

There is nothing epistemically out of context about the basic laws of gravity, Joe.

And I don’t see how you “ clearly demonstrated the German article is suspect”. You haven't even seen it, read it or read a translation of it, have you?

This strikes me az the same type of argument as the exterminationist’s cherry-picked “convergence of evidence” with their bogus claim that somehow their carefully cherry-picked mish-mash of ‘evidence’ proves the legally protected ‘genocide-of-jews-by-mass-gassing’ narrative.
It obviously doesn’t. It just chooses to ignore all the empirical evidence that completely refutes their narrative.

Same with 9/11. You just ignored the relatively tiny amount of the huge collection of refuting evidence that I alluded to. And instead of the bogus “convergence of evidence” excuse you have bought into the equally vacuous term of “epistemic contextualism”.

In both cases — the false-flag 911 attacks and the ‘final solution’ WW2 extermination allegation — it is the empirical evidence that needs to be concentrated upon.
Why?
Because THAT isn’t so easily misinterpreted or misconstrued. Plus can’t be accused of lying, being biased, etc.

• Are there holes in the roofs of the krema at Birkenau? Answer: no.
• Does zyklonb continue to exude lethally poisonous, invisible HCN (hydrogen cyanide or prussic acid) for around 90 minutes at temperatures of approx 15°C? Answer: yes.
• Do these two empirical facts refute the legally protected, Auschwitz mass-gassing narrative? Answer: yes they do.

• Does burying around 400,000 gassed corpses in a small area then disinterring them, cremating them in open-air pyres and reburying the cremains leave empirical evidence of sizeable ground disturbance and tonnes of ash, bone shards and teeth? Answer: yes, most definitely it does.
• Is there any such requisite empirical evidence supporting the legally protected Treblinka II narrative. Answer: no. Definitely not!

Do you see, Joe?

People seeking to deny the considerable empirical evidence which categorically refutes the holocaust mass-gassing narrative, gain comfort and assurance in slogans like ‘convergence’.

I suggest the same applies to slogans like “epistemic contextualism”.

[Joe Splink]

And I don’t see how you “ clearly demonstrated the German article is suspect”. You haven't even seen it, read it or read a translation of it, have you?

??? I've read the article on the Irving site, not the translation of the conversation, and I showed to my satisfaction that removing the 'in advance' from the US/Merkel translation does not change it's meaning one whit, and implying that it does, as per the German article, is misleading. The rest of the paragraph clearly shows it refers to events before 9/11.

[Wahrheitssucher]

And I don’t see how you “ clearly demonstrated the German article is suspect”. You haven't even seen it, read it or read a translation of it, have you?

??? I've read the article on the Irving site, not the translation of the conversation, and I showed to my satisfaction that removing the 'in advance' from the US/Merkel translation does not change it's meaning one whit, and implying that it does, as per the German article, is misleading. The rest of the paragraph clearly shows it refers to events before 9/11.

You are still arguing from a position of ignorance.

[Callafangers]

First, we would have to assume that Building 7 was already prewired for demolition. We would have to assume that both Larry Silverstein and the Fire Commander knew this and were in on the plot to demolish the building, since that is supposedly what they were talking about. We would have to assume that the Fire Commander, even though he intended to blow up the building, for some reason allowed his men in and around the building to fight the fires that were burning there, where they might be blown up or at the very least discover some evidence of the planted explosives. Then we would have to assume that the masterminds of 9/11, having no clear plan as to when they wanted Building 7 to come down, left this critical decision strangely in the hands of Larry Silverstein and the Fire Commander.

The above captures perfectly why I don't engage with people like this anymore. Most of the "we would have tos" above are not necessary at all. Larry Silverstein saying "pull it" was a very early interview, before anyone anywhere had gotten pressure on the suspicions of WTC 7. If we assume "Truthers" are correct, Larry was at this point quite confident he had gotten away with it, thus no reason to carefully craft his story to prevent suspicions. Casually saying, "yeah there was so much destruction that we decided to tear that building down, no big deal", is perfectly within the scope of what he could have been saying... but yes, perhaps it slipped his mind that people would find out this necessarily would require that the building was prewired in-advance -- exposing the plot.

Larry was the first new leaseholder on the WTC complex in 30 years, and he obtained this complex just a couple months (July, IIRC) before 9/11. What a coincidence! And a lucky one, for sure, since he obtained two asbestos-infested, dilapidated Towers and then quickly ended up with brand-spanking-new multi-billion dollar Towers and with many millions in extra insurance money to spare, due to his unusually-massive insurance policies he'd conveniently taken out when he obtained the Towers just months prior. And I suppose you find no intrigue in the fact that Silverstein was a great friend of Bibi Netanyahu, talking to him on the phone for hours every weekend for years.

This is aside from the Odigo messaging service having been confirmed as warning Israelis of the impending event, or of former Senator Al Franken (Jewish) admitting explicitly that he was warned by another Jewish friend of his not to go to NYC on 9/11. No big deal. It's also no big deal that, despite people from dozens of nations having died in the Towers on 9/11, and despite NYC being a Jewish-capital of the world, not a single Israeli died in the Towers on that day (people often mistake this for "not a single Jew", which is incorrect). Amazing.

My fingers are getting tired, here's some more analysis on 9/11 from another thread, just to wrap things up:

All of the major locations where the alleged hijackers were tracked have a direct overlap with locations where Israeli 'art students' (Mossad agents) had also been tracked, with these Mossad agents being in houses just a few doors down from the location of the 'hijackers', in some cases (e.g. in Hollywood, Florida):

shea.jpg (151.18 KiB) Viewed 75 times

https://www.antiwar.com/rep2/Memorandum ... esbold.pdf

You and other 9/11 Deceivers have also had one hell of a time explaining the bright orange molten metal clearly filmed pouring and splashing its way out of the South tower, just 2-3 minutes before its total collapse initiated at that exact position:



Note that even if we assume this liquid is molten aluminum (it is not), the bright orange glow can only be explained by temperatures far, far beyond anything that jet-fueled office fires could ever create (the color and intensity of the glow always has to do with temperature -- not with the type of metal; confusion in this regard often stems from the fact that certain metals like aluminum have such a low melting point that they start melting before they glow at all). There is not a single 'official' explanation which even remotely satisfies the challenge that observation of this liquid creates. And there are many other reports of the same kind of liquid ("like a foundry") being witnessed in the WTC wreckage, within the buildings, etc. Not a single instance of this is satisfactorily explained by "jet-fueled office fires", let alone when multiple reports and video evidence converge in this way.

[Joe Splink]

Joe Splink wrote: ↑Tue Jul 08, 2025 2:05 pm
And I don’t see how you “ clearly demonstrated the German article is suspect”. You haven't even seen it, read it or read a translation of it, have you?
??? I've read the article on the Irving site, not the translation of the conversation, and I showed to my satisfaction that removing the 'in advance' from the US/Merkel translation does not change it's meaning one whit, and implying that it does, as per the German article, is misleading. The rest of the paragraph clearly shows it refers to events before 9/11.
You are still arguing from a position of ignorance.

??? It appears to me to be a perfectly knowledgeable, coherent, not to mention persuasive argument that is fully supported by information available to me, and cited !