The Korherr Report

[Stubble]

In an effort not to sidetrack another thread;

https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=11678#p11678

I will respond to a post from Bombsaway in this new thread. First I feel a little background is in order however.

The Korherr Report is a document prepared by the chief inspector of the statistical bureau of the SS and professional statistician Dr Richard Korherr. It deals with statistical study of the jews of Europe and attempts to calculate how many are alive, how many are dead, and how many are still in Europe.

Bombsaway has used part of this report to say that it is incongruent with 'The Dissolution of European jewry'. I will quote his post here;

Sanning:

Sanning : 857,000 Jews in in German occupied Poland after the area was divided - pg 44 https://dn790006.ca.archive.org/0/items ... 14-047.pdf

Korherr: 1 449 692 transported into the "Russian east" from the GG and Warthegau, with hundreds of thousands remaining in Poland.

Sanning doesn't even mention Korherr in his book which means he either is a charlatan, deluded himself into thinking it wasn't even worth a mention, or is historically illiterate.

One mistake among many, though this is alone is so blatant it should permanently discredit him as a serious scholar IMO.

It appears that Bombsaway is trying to say that Sanning's number does not include the jews deported east. There is a reason for this, Sanning's table on page 44 is referencing the division of polish jews before Aktion Reinhardt.

I don't this the report is incongruent with Sanning at all.

With all of this said, ultimately, I'm unsure how the orthodoxy is trying to spin this report to support the assertion that in excess of 5,000,000 jews were 'exterminated' by the nazis during ww2. If you read the report, you will see the mathematical impossibility of making this report congruent with 5,000,000 or more, what's less the 6,000,000 claim, which is why this document classically hasn't gotten much love from either side of the coin and has always been a bit of an orphan.

In any case, for what it's worth, here is the Korherr Report for your review so you can read it and reach your own conclusions;

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=397

I suppose now we can get to some meaningful debate and discussion, thanks gents.

[bombsaway]

I don't this the report is incongruent with Sanning at all.

You are 100% out of your mind here. The report says 1.5 million transported out of Poland. Obviously this is a reference to the Reinhardt operation, Himmler's mass "resettlement" of the GG (and the corresponding "resettlement" of Jews in the Wartha aka through Chelmno). The Hoefle telegram confirms what is again, painfully, painfully obvious.

If you can't understand why Sanning is contradicted, I don't believe you have the intellectual capacity to undertake the more extensive task of tabulating Holocaust deaths (so you may understand why the Korherr report does not contradict orthodoxy - far from it)

[Stubble]

Bombsaway, what year do you believe is being referenced in that table from 'The Dissolution of European jewry'?

[bombsaway]

Bombsaway, what year do you believe is being referenced in that table?

By Sanning? In his mind, after the partition, but I might as well say 65 million years from now.

At a certain point during Operation Reinhardt, the amount of Jews in Poland must have been 857,000 , for an hour or a day or two, but Sanning is not referring to this, but a Narnia contradicted by many German documents.

[Stubble]

Wait a minute, you are saying that every jew involved in resettlement was a Polish jew? That that number from Korherr is representative strictly of Polish jews? Exclusively?

These jews;

4. Transportation of Jews from the
eastern provinces to the Russian
East: ............................ 1 449 692

The eastern provinces is Poland?

[bombsaway]

Wait a minute, you are saying that every jew involved in resettlement was a Polish jew? That that number from Korherr is representative strictly of Polish jews? Exclusively?

These jews;

4. Transportation of Jews from the
eastern provinces to the Russian
East: ............................ 1 449 692

The eastern provinces is Poland?

I thought you said you read the Korherr report. This is Poland yes in bold

Transportation of Jews from the eastern Provinces to the Russian East: . . . . . . .

1,449,692 Jews

the following numbers transited through the camps in the General Government . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

1,274,166 Jews

through the camps in the Warthegau . . . . . . . . . . . .


145,301 Jews

And the 1.27 figure is confirmed by Hoefle to be part of Reinhardt

[Stubble]

Then we disagree.

You can say that it includes only Poland. That is in no way how I interpret that however, because, if it were just Poland, it would say, Poland.

So far as these jews being in the concentration and labor camps in Poland, of course. There were jews in Poland in the concentration and labor camps. That doesn't statistically make them Polish jews however. Polish jews were Polish jews, not jews who happened to be in Poland.

A jew from Ukraine for example doesn't become a Polish jew simply by crossing the border and being placed in a concentration or labor camp in Poland.



Ok, ok, maybe not specifically, Poland, but, the eastern territories would be broken down separately if they were not combined in the report. They are not. They are combined and referred to as the eastern territories.

[bombsaway]

Then we disagree.

You can say that it includes only Poland. That is in no way how I interpret that however, because, if it were just Poland, it would say, Poland.

So far as these jews being in the concentration and labor camps in Poland, of course. There were jews in Poland in the concentration and labor camps. That doesn't statistically make them Polish jews however. Polish jews were Polish jews, not jews who happened to be in Poland.

A jew from Ukraine for example doesn't become a Polish jew simply by crossing the border and being placed in a concentration or labor camp in Poland.

If not from Poland, where are they coming from?

https://ghdi.ghi-dc.org/docpage.cfm?docpage_id=2479

this is the page withe the evacuation breakdowns, from each country including incomplete (therefore minimum) figures for the Russian territories including the baltic. also " the evacuation was prepared on a large scale and largely implemented throughout the entire Reich territory in 1942"

like bro , have you read this?

[Stubble]

Like bro, where is Ukraine on that breakdown, Eh? Rumania? Latvia? Lithuania?

These are all 'Poland' to you?

[bombsaway]

Like bro, where is Ukraine on that breakdown, Eh? Rumania? Latvia? Lithuania?

These are all 'Poland' to you?

He's not counting the Romanian Jews or saying they were part of the evacuation

Ukraine, Belarus, plus Baltics would included here

"in the Russian territories including the former Baltic countries since the beginning of the eastern campaign."

Sanning says there was 665,000 Jews in those territories anyway, so that's covered by Korherr's incomplete figures for this cohort.

The extent of the losses suffered by the Soviet Jews who remained under German control is debatable. It seems that because of their age structure - elderly people predominated - the natural excess of deaths must have reached at least 3% per year; 50 in three occupation years, this adds up to a reduction of 65,000. This means that the Jewish population under German control - the figure of 720,000 probably is too high - was reduced to 655,000.

Add this to his "757,000" Polish Jews that fell under German control.

[Stubble]

I'll put on some flippers tomorrow and take another dive. For posterity, I will leave this screen shot here.

I don't see this the way you do. To me, Eastern Territories does not mean 'only from Poland'. You keep saying it specifically does. I find this odd.

[bombsaway]

The "eastern territories" are designated in their entirety as the GG and Warthegau, so definitely Poland. You can read right?

Your statement that this includes Ukrainian Jews means they would have had to have transported those Jews back into the GG, then moved them out for Korherr's report to be accurate.

Pure silliness.

[Archie]

The report is through the end of 1942. How many Jews had supposedly been murdered by this point, according to orthodoxy? Around 4.5 million.

See Appendix B in Hilberg's book (1985, volume 3). "Table B-3: Deaths by Year"

1933-1940: under 100,000
1941: 1,100,000
1942: 2,700,000
1943: 500,000
1944: 600,000
1945: 100,000
Total: 5,100,000

Hilberg is one of the few authors with a by-year breakdown and he has 3.9M through 1942, but this is to end up with his lowish 5.1M total. To reach the standard, consensus figure, you need to bump that up to more like 4.5M. This front-loading of the deaths is unavoidable. There's no way around it.

Let's see what the Korherr report says:

The total Jewish population of the world was estimated at 17 million in 1937. Of these, over 10 million were in Europe. They are or were concentrated in Europe mainly in the German – occupied Baltic Sea and the Gulf of Finland and the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov, also in the trading centres of Middle and Western Europe, in the Rhine and along the Mediterranean coast.

Between 1937 and the beginning of 1943 the Jewish population of Europe should have decreased by an estimated 4 million, partly due to excess mortality of the Jews in Middle and Western Europe and partly due to the evacuations, mainly in the Eastern territories which are counted as a decrease here.

Moreover, it was not possible to count all of the deaths of the Soviet Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern Territories while those in the remaining European part of Russia and on the front have not been included at all.

In addition to this there are the masses of Jews who have fled from European Russia and the emigration of Jews abroad from the European countries outside German influence is a largely unknown quantity.

Altogether European Jewry must have decreased by almost half since 1933 that is to say, during the first decade of the development of power of National Socialism.

These figures indicate that the Jewish population of Europe has already been reduced by 4 million. On the European continent (after Russia with c. 4 million) only Hungary (750,000, Rumania (302,000) and possibly France have large Jewish populations.

In addition to the abovementioned figures, if one takes into account the Jewish emigration, the excess mortality in the non-German countries of Middle and Western Europe and the unavoidable double-counting due to the fluctuation of the Jews, then the reduction of the Jewish population of Europe from 1937 to the beginning of 1943 could be estimated at 4 and a half million.

Moreover, it was not possible to count all the deaths of the Soviet – Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern Territories while those in the remaining European part of Russia and on the front have not been included at all.

In addition to this there are masses of Jews who have fled from European Russia to Asian Russia and the emigration of Jews from the European countries outside German influence abroad is a largely unknown quantity.

Altogether, European Jewry must have been reduced by almost half since 1933, that is to say, during the first decade of the development of power of National Socialism.

Again half, that is a quarter of the total Jewish population of 1937, has fled to other countries.

So he claims a drop of 4M (perhaps 4.5M) which may or may not be correct. Even if it is right, at the end he says about half of this is Jews who "fled to other countries." There is no reasonable interpretation of this document that would be consistent with 4.5M EXECUTIONS by this time. Even if we were to assume "evacuation" was a synonym for murder, this would be only half the necessary number. You would have to further assume that "fled to other countries" was also "code language" and that the entire population drop was due to murder.

One thing to remember is that just because there is a report with some numbers on it does not mean that the numbers are correct. You have to consider the context and purpose, as well as their ability to get accurate numbers. If there is a policy objective of getting the Jews out of Central Europe, that may well bias the reports in the direction of showing maximal progress. Korherr and the Wannsee numbers are not very consistent (they do not even agree on prewar population), and some of the Wannsee numbers are very obviously too high. This is one reason I question whether the Germans statistics on any of this were all that accurate.

[bombsaway]

Again half, that is a quarter of the total Jewish population of 1937, has fled to other countries.

So he claims a drop of 4M (perhaps 4.5M) which may or may not be correct. Even if it is right, at the end he says about half of this is Jews who "fled to other countries." There is no reasonable interpretation of this document that would be consistent with 4.5M EXECUTIONS by this time. Even if we were to assume "evacuation" was a synonym for murder, this would be only half the necessary number. You would have to further assume that "fled to other countries" was also "code language" and that the entire population drop was due to murder.

You should check the translation on this. Challen's translation (he is a revisionist) says "About half of these Jews or 'a quarter of the total European Jewish population of 1937 have flowed to other continents." so this is not separate from the "evacuation numbers" but actually the evacuation numbers which is around 2 million

https://codoh.com/library/document/rich ... s-reports/

We also have this: "In addition, only a portion of the deaths of
Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern Territories are shown in these figures,
where~s deaths in the rest of European Russia and at the front are not
included at all"

It's considered that well over a million were shot, then you have ghetto and labor related deaths which Korherr kind of counts anyway. So you're actually pretty close to 3.9 million

[Stubble]

I will make the concession that Korherr is talking about what would statistically be referred to as Poland, but I'm unhappy about the concession and so tradition dictates that I say something derogatory about your mother.

Assume I said something offensive and derogatory about your mother.

Something like this;